Follow up to B&H - Workers Unionize

[Ed_David]

So adorama seems likes it is different than b and h. Seems like they have a woman pr person at least. https://m.reddit.com/r/Filmmakers/comments/3oqp2j/nytimes_reports_on_bh_labor_issues/

[Nikkor]

15 minutes ago, Ed David said:

So adorama seems likes it is different than b and h. Seems like they have a woman pr person at least. https://m.reddit.com/r/Filmmakers/comments/3oqp2j/nytimes_reports_on_bh_labor_issues/

"at least", as if that were something positive. What about transsexuals? I think it should be 33% men, 33% trans, 33% women. 

And please excuse my language, by trans I mean everything that is between hard defined genders, I still haven't completed my gender studies gulag and am still a white ignorant over-priviledged man.

[Jonesy Jones]

14 hours ago, squig said:

@henryp How many female salespeople do you presently have working in your store?

 

14 hours ago, Ed David said:

I respect you keep your call centers in the us but i do not think this negates charges set forward by the us department of labor that b and h attempted to settle as referenced in the article.

I do hope b and h does reform. Especially since this is the 2nd time in 12 years.

Curious if adorama has these issues?

Boy you really edited that didn't you Ed. Not even the same post. I like this version better though. 

Question, how many females are on this forum? I can think of only a couple. Must be a pretty discriminatory forum.

[henryp]

15 hours ago, squig said:

@henryp How many female salespeople do you presently have working in your store?

I don't take head counts when I'm in the store but at present, quite a few.

14 hours ago, Ed David said:

I respect you keep your call centers in the us but i do not think this negates charges set forward by the us department of labor that b and h attempted to settle as referenced in the article.
I do hope b and h does reform. Especially since this is the 2nd time in 12 years.

 

I see. You presume we need to reform because you're presuming the as yet unproven allegations are true. Maybe they're not all true and if so, maybe we don't need to reform.

[tugela]

12 hours ago, Baz said:

"For two successive leaders they have elected completely unelectable people who they think can look after the interests of the unions, even though they're completely out of touch with the voters and have no chance of putting the party into government. I think union leaders have a lot to answer for."

Are you getting into politics now Andrew ?  The members of the Labour Party appoint their Leader not members of the public. If anybody wants a say in who leads the Labour Party maybe they should join up and cast a vote. Many union leaders do have a lot to answer for, they sit on their arses and don't do enough for their members. In my opinion they are no different than most elected politicians once they get voted in.

Unlikely. Organized parties generally have local branches who elect delegates, and those delegates elect the leader. It is not a popular vote, but rather a machine run by the elite within the party. The party leader that emerges from that process is not necessarily the person the rank and file want, it usually the person the elite want.

The only country that I am aware of that nominates candidates by popular vote is the US, and the main parties there do not have a leader.

[Ed_David]

21 hours ago, henryp said:

I don't take head counts when I'm in the store but at present, quite a few.

I see. You presume we need to reform because you're presuming the as yet unproven allegations are true. Maybe they're not all true and if so, maybe we don't need to reform.

The alligations are not just alligations Henry. These are violations of new york state law that your company acknowledges and wanted to settle for cash that new york state refushed.  Your company is getting sued by new york state. Your company was written up in the new york times and you declined to comment in that paper.

Also a photo of some sales clerks who are women. Thats great. But how many executives are women?

And im not asking you to reform...I have taken 70 percent of my business already away from you. 

I dont expect you to reform. And thats fine. There is adorama, film tools, barn door outfitters, omega broadcast,  and so many more camera and grip stores that seem to not violate labor right practices with its latino employees.

 

[squig]

9 hours ago, henryp said:

maybe we don't need to reform.

Good luck with that. It's that kind of arrogance that makes the decision to shop elsewhere a no brainer.

[henryp]

17 hours ago, Ed David said:

The alligations are not just alligations Henry. These are violations of new york state law that your company acknowledges and wanted to settle for cash that new york state refushed.  Your company is getting sued by new york state. Your company was written up in the new york times and you declined to comment in that paper.

In fact they're allegations or accusations, we violated federal, not NY state, law. We may have offered to settle, since doing so is almost always cheaper than the lengthy expensive drawn-out legal process, but that's a matter of efficiency and economy of scale. I declined to comment for the NY Times because the issue at hand is one of as-yet unresolved litigation and I was following the advice and instruction of our lawyers, as is prudent.

Aside to squig -- if you're going to quote me, at least include the whole sentence. What I said was IF the allegations are untrue THEN maybe we don't need to reform. Context, eh.

[Baz]

21 hours ago, tugela said:

Unlikely. Organized parties generally have local branches who elect delegates, and those delegates elect the leader. It is not a popular vote, but rather a machine run by the elite within the party. The party leader that emerges from that process is not necessarily the person the rank and file want, it usually the person the elite want.

The only country that I am aware of that nominates candidates by popular vote is the US, and the main parties there do not have a leader.

Sorry, but the members of the UK's Labour Party voted unanimously for their current leader by a huge margin. The members are the rank and file of the party. If they didn't like the candidate they didn't have to vote for them. The 'elite' of the Labour Party certainly didn't want the current leader voted in I can assure you. They're crapping themselves because their gravy train has almost come off the rails.

[Snowfun]

20 hours ago, Ed David said:

And im not asking you to reform...I have taken 70 percent of my business already away from you. 

And that is certainly a decision you have the right to make. One remains to be convinced that it justifies this thread in the context of this forum however.

Just as an aside, one might wonder whether you maintain the same degree of humanitarian concern for the workers and their families in (at least some of) the countries in which your equipment (not to mention your household goods and chattels more generally) was probably manufactured.

It would be a more relevant exercise, in this context, to use your eloquence and writing skills to produce a "Guide to Lighting" for our friend Zach and others (including myself) who are new to the techniques and methods used by the more experienced.

[tugela]

1 hour ago, Baz said:

Sorry, but the members of the UK's Labour Party voted unanimously for their current leader by a huge margin. The members are the rank and file of the party. If they didn't like the candidate they didn't have to vote for them. The 'elite' of the Labour Party certainly didn't want the current leader voted in I can assure you. They're crapping themselves because their gravy train has almost come off the rails.

The entire party membership went to the leadership conference? Unions didn't get to send their own delegates?

You are aware that to get nominated at all, you need the support of at least 15% of labour MPs right? Someone like Donald Trump would never have been a candidate in that sort of system, nor would any sort of outsider for that matter.

[squig]

2 hours ago, Snowfun said:

It would be a more relevant exercise, in this context, to use your eloquence and writing skills to produce a "Guide to Lighting" for our friend Zach and others (including myself) who are new to the techniques and methods used by the more experienced.

Would you like fries with that?

[Ed_David]

5 hours ago, henryp said:

In fact they're allegations or accusations, we violated federal, not NY state, law. We may have offered to settle, since doing so is almost always cheaper than the lengthy expensive drawn-out legal process, but that's a matter of efficiency and economy of scale. I declined to comment for the NY Times because the issue at hand is one of as-yet unresolved litigation and I was following the advice and instruction of our lawyers, as is prudent.

Aside to squig -- if you're going to quote me, at least include the whole sentence. What I said was IF the allegations are untrue THEN maybe we don't need to reform. Context, eh.

Violated federal law.

[squig]

6 hours ago, henryp said:

Aside to squig -- if you're going to quote me, at least include the whole sentence. What I said was IF the allegations are untrue THEN maybe we don't need to reform. Context, eh.

"In 2007, B&H had to pay $4.3 million to settle a discrimination claim by another group of Hispanic workers with jobs in the firm's Brooklyn Navy Yard warehouse."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/b-h-photo-discriminated-2-hispanic-employees-lawsuit-article-1.991286 

http://heebmagazine.com/b-and-h-camera-lawsuits/31725

http://hyperallergic.com/275052/federal-agency-finds-labor-violations-at-bh-photo-fines-company-32000/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/nyregion/19bagels.html?_r=0

 Context, eh.

 

[Jonesy Jones]

3 hours ago, Ed David said:

Violated federal law.

I find it so baffling that in one thread you adamantly claim that the "system is broken" while paradoxically quoting said system "innocent until proven guilty" as your proof of the breakage.

Ironically, in an altogether different thread, which I believe you titled something like "When the courts aren't enough", YOU cast guilt on a man who was NOT found guilty.

And then in this thread, which to be honest I am totally confused as to which allegations we're referring to at this point, it appears as though it doesn't even matter what the courts decide as long as there is a history of lawsuits and settlements, which evidently is equal to guilt. But then you'll turn around and conveniently embrace the law again the moment it agrees with you. Honestly, your logic is as inconsistent as you claim the system to be.

I recommend you stick to movies Ed. You're way better at that.

[Ed_David]

4 hours ago, squig said:

"In 2007, B&H had to pay $4.3 million to settle a discrimination claim by another group of Hispanic workers with jobs in the firm's Brooklyn Navy Yard warehouse."

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/b-h-photo-discriminated-2-hispanic-employees-lawsuit-article-1.991286 

http://heebmagazine.com/b-and-h-camera-lawsuits/31725

http://hyperallergic.com/275052/federal-agency-finds-labor-violations-at-bh-photo-fines-company-32000/

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/19/nyregion/19bagels.html?_r=0

 Context, eh.

 

Yes, the list of violations go back pretty far.

To reform is only possible if there is an admittance of wrongdoing.  Per the PR representative posting on here, this does not seem to be happening.

And that's probably not the smartest position to take, I think.  

I think, the elephant in the room, that the PR department can't talk about, is that there is a reason for B&H's insanely low prices, when compared to every other camera and photo retailer.  Even while they have Friday to Sunday AM off each week, in essence cutting 2 extra shopping days off, and a long list of holidays.  

And that is probably cutting corners on employee wages and building conditions, amongst other things.  The Walmart and Amazon way. 

My question for people on here is, would you shop more ethic-consciously if it cost more, but at the same time gave a more customized experience with a sales member who personally analyzes your order and recommends additional accessories that you may have forgotten?  

[DayRaven]

Just now, Ed David said:

My question for people on here is, would you shop more ethic-consciously if it cost more, but at the same time gave a more customized experience with a sales member who personally analyzes your order and recommends additional accessories that you may have forgotten?  

I both would and do, most recently, I spent £100 extra on my A6300 preorder to order from a company I trust ethically

[Ed_David]

That's great.

That's something I wish I could do more. 

It takes more effort to buy ethically, but it's worth it for the sustainability of our global society.

Another question that was asked, "what are the ethical decisions based on the resources needed to create these electronics?"

For me, it's difficult, but I guess, my solution is to buy used.  I especially do this with clothes.  So many clothes are made each year, and there are so many used clothes that are completely fine.  It's not like "new" clothes are "new" anyway - the amount of people who try them on at the store, and the hands touching them.

With camera and lights, producers especially do not care if the product is new or not.  As soon as it's taken out of its case and tested by you, it's used.

 

 

[agolex]

Drama queens!

We've always been living in a world of total exploitation, but it nets us 4K, IBIS and eventually maybe even internal 10 bit 4:2:2 for a measly 2k. What's there not to like?

[DayRaven]

On 03/03/2016 at 1:10 PM, agolex said:

Drama queens!

We've always been living in a world of total exploitation, but it nets us 4K, IBIS and eventually maybe even internal 10 bit 4:2:2 for a measly 2k. What's there not to like?

Perhaps living in a world of total exploitation IS the thing not to like!