Follow up to B&H - Workers Unionize

[Ed_David]

I know there are very orthodox Christian businesses like "Hobby Lobby" and "In and Out" Burger, and Chick Fil A.  Hobby Lobby getting into an incredibly amount of trouble in how it handles its female employees and contracetive needs. In and Out Burger seems to treat its workers well.  Denny's on the other hand, I think was racist in its practices. And Chick Fil A, how they handled the gay marriage movement was horrible.

I don't personally see a correlation in this case with the Hasidic.  Adorama, I think is run by Orthodox Jews as well, and they have an excellent record of human rights and labor rights.

I think you need to view each company on a company-per-company business, or you can run the trap into religious profiling.

But with that said, it seems (and this is refuted I think) that Hasidic culture views non-Jews as "non-human" - http://mondoweiss.net/2014/01/haaretz-orthodox-taught/

And potentially a theory why at the country's largest Kosher meat plant, there were meth labs:

https://consumerist.com/2008/05/19/immigration-raid-reveals-meth-lab-at-nations-largest-kosher-meat-plant/

A lot of liberals like me will not talk about this, cause they fear being labeled "anti-Semitic."  For me personally, I'm Jewish, so that protects me slightly. But what I find frusterating about the PC liberal movement, is that we quickly bash as much as possible any ultra-Christian group like Chick Fil A or Hobby Lobby without even batting an eye, but allow , because of political correctness, to shield other potential ethical and human rights abuses.

Whether the Hasidic culture has a negative view of non-Jews, I still have a Hasidic friend at my post office.  We should all look past what a culture preaches, and judge people individually. 

[DayRaven]

Just now, Ed David said:

is run by Orthodox Jews as well, and they have

Don't do that, please! You of all people are above judging people based on things like their religion, race, gender etc - that statement, while I understand was meant positively, was just as discrimitory as "Women can't reverse" or "Black people are lazy". There are Orthodox Jews who respect human/labour rights, there are Orthodox Jews who abuse them. That they are Orthodox Jews does not give you the ability to have any understanding of them at all beyond their religious beliefs.

[Don Kotlos]

9 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

Don't do that, please! You of all people are above judging people based on things like their religion, race, gender etc - that statement, while I understand was meant positively, was just as discrimitory as "Women can't reverse" or "Black people are lazy". There are Orthodox Jews who respect human/labour rights, there are Orthodox Jews who abuse them. That they are Orthodox Jews does not give you the ability to have any understanding of them at all beyond their religious beliefs.

Sexual or racial discrimination is very different than any "cultural" discrimination such as religion. The first group is something that you are born with and thus cannot change whereas the second group is learned and modifiable. 

Humanity improves through modifications of the latter and failure to observe and analyze any cultural meme due to political correctness will undeniably lead us to decadence. 

Now correlation does not mean causation. So of course being a hasidic jew does not mean you are going to have a company that does not care about its workers or being a Muslim does not mean you are radical. But at the same time there are common religious traits that can influence human behavior, such as inferiority of heathens, and should be called out and modified for the sake of humanity.

[DayRaven]

Just now, Don Kotlos said:

Sexual or racial discrimination is very different than any "cultural" discrimination such as religion. The first group is something that you are born with and thus cannot change whereas the second group is learned and modifiable. 

Humanity improves through modifications of the latter and failure to observe and analyze any cultural meme due to political correctness will undeniably lead us to decadence. 

Now correlation does not mean causation. So of course being a hasidic jew does not mean you are going to have a company that does not care about its workers or being a Muslim does not mean you are radical. But at the same time there are common religious traits that can influence human behavior, such as inferiority of heathens, and should be called out and modified for the sake of humanity.

I'm not OK with calling people out on something that there is no evidence that they have done, purely because they follow a certain religion, sorry, I disagree that it is OK to treat people differently for any protected characteristic, whether it be something you are born with or something cultural. If I choose to follow Islam, I shouldn't have to face being treated like a human rights abuser if I am not merely because there is a corrolation between muslims and terrorism, and if I am an Orthodox Jew, I shouldn't get away with human right abuses because people decided to focus on checking the businesses run by (insert religion here) due to the corrolation of Orthadox Jews not treating their workers badly. That would be a better way to improve humanity than trying to convince people to change their religious beliefs, to be honest. Being treated the same as anyone else is a human right and treating groups differently due to hearsay beliefs hasn't exactly done us proud in the last 2000 years - I think it's high time we tried another way.

[fuzzynormal]

I hope y'all realize I'm not being religiously prejudicial.    

I'm just curious about the culture and if it might be affecting the practices.

As I said, a religious business trying to operate in a secular society can cause a problem if the business isn't savvy about things.

Just because I'm raising the thought, don't assume I have some certain disposition.  I'm really just interested as I'm ignorant about it.  BTW, I read that B&H are not Hasidic, but Satmar.  (I'm assuming that's different from Hasidic somehow, but maybe it's a sub sect, I dunno)

I will admit to being skeptical about the ultra devout being able to successfully assimilate into a broader secular society, such as the USA.  That challenge goes across all belief systems though.  I mean, there's a scientologist in my family, and the attitudes of those ideas and ideals tends to illustrate how beliefs can skew rationality...as it's easier to see how belief impacts thought when there's not centuries of acceptable cultural dogma to wade through.

For me, it's all a kind of social study.  I'm not commending or condemning, just trying to observe objectively. 

Anyway, if you bop around the net, you'll find lots of stories praising B&H, but knowing how the media operates, it's not too surprising to find great PR about businesses online.  That's normal.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/nyc-electronics-store-earns-gelt-with-orthodox-business-model/

[Don Kotlos]

7 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

I'm not OK with calling people out on something that there is no evidence that they have done, purely because they follow a certain religion, sorry, I disagree that it is OK to treat people differently for any protected characteristic, whether it be something you are born with or something cultural. If I choose to follow Islam, I shouldn't have to face being treated like a human rights abuser if I am not merely because there is a corrolation between muslims and terrorism, and if I am an Orthodox Jew, I shouldn't get away with human right abuses because people decided to focus on checking the businesses run by (insert religion here) due to the corrolation of Orthadox Jews not treating their workers badly. That would be a better way to improve humanity than trying to convince people to change their religious beliefs, to be honest. Being treated the same as anyone else is a human right and treating groups differently due to hearsay beliefs hasn't exactly done us proud in the last 2000 years - I think it's high time we tried another way.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said we should treat people differently. I also didn't say that someone should change their beliefs. 

What I said that we should not be afraid to change bad religious traits. So in a way modify religion. 

[DayRaven]

Just now, Don Kotlos said:

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said we should treat people differently. I also didn't say that someone should change their beliefs. 

What I said that we sould should not be afraid to change bad religious traits. So modify religion. 

Oh, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt to be honest. This is worse! Good luck telling people that their "bad" religious traits need to change!

[Ed_David]

I think this is an interesting discussion. To me religious beliefs influence how a company runs as much as the political beliefs of its CEO and top brass, yet it is much more politically correct to discuss the falacy of someone's political beliefs than their religious beliefs..

Here's an interesting article I found of 17 companies that are deeply religious.  The religion definitely in some examples affects how they operate and treat their workers.  And how they contribuate to politians campaigns, just as the poltiical beliefs of billionares affects where they contribuate, or their religion as well.

http://www.businessinsider.com/17-big-companies-that-are-intensely-religious-2012-1?op=1

I personally think one should be able to discuss how a company is influenced by the religion of the owners.  Chick Fil A is actively anti-queer with their donations...without talk about this, we can not discourage others from acting in a way that hurts people of different sexual orientations, minorities, etc.  

Political correctness is a great limiter of free speech.  While it's best to exercise caution to not fall into the trap of hate speech, this should not limit discussions of any society or business that influences how our world work. Political correctness I think holds back liberals from finding solutions to complex issues.

We get so nervous, so touchy, when someone brings up religion in any setting of negativity.  That's kind of what the film Spotlight taught me.  All the abuse by the Catholic church of molestation of boys across America, was silences, partially because of the power of the Catholic church and partially because liberals just don't want to offend a religion, I feel.

Amazon.com is run by Jeff Bezos, a libertarian, who according to articles in the NYTimes treats his employees like farm animals.  Same with Uber.  Their treatment of their drivers is downright disgusting.   I wish Ayn Rand was never taken seriously.  And I am happy that I can say that or not get immediately destroyed for saying that, because it's not politically incorrect to attack libertarians.

With all this rambling, I still think it's company by company basis, how the religion of the CEO and top brass affect how the company works. If people study the strengths and weaknesses of businesses, we can create businesses with a higher ethical standard and support them with our money. Reward those financial who are more ethical.

I have started to do this.

I have dropped 80% of my business from B&H and increased 80% of my business to Barndoor Lighting, a smaller grip and lighting retail store.

[Nikkor]

Heh, google sent me to some fake quotes.

[Jonesy Jones]

3 hours ago, Ed David said:

Reward those financial who are more ethical.

I would absolutely love to hear where you derive your ethics from Ed. I think it's safe to say it's not from religion. I think it's also pretty clear that its not from the law or government either (which is a lame source of ethics anyway). So again, from where do you get this moral code that you judge others so harshly by? 

[Ed_David]

2 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

I would absolutely love to hear where you derive your ethics from Ed. I think it's safe to say it's not from religion. I think it's also pretty clear that its not from the law or government either (which is a lame source of ethics anyway). So again, from where do you get this moral code that you judge others so harshly 

From the same place you get yours. ?

[squig]

13 hours ago, Ed David said:

No bathrooms for female workers.  Seperate bathrooms for whites and nonwhites.. 

Knew I shouldn't have hitched a ride in that DeLorean. That's fucked up. Can't wait to hear the PR guy spin some BS on that.

[Jonesy Jones]

1 hour ago, Ed David said:

From the same place you get yours. ?

I very seriously doubt that....

Waiting for a real answer....

[Mattias Burling]

8 hours ago, Ed David said:

Political correctness is a great limiter of free speech.  While it's best to exercise caution to not fall into the trap of hate speech, this should not limit discussions of any society or business that influences how our world work. Political correctness I think holds back liberals from finding solutions to complex issues.

We get so nervous, so touchy, when someone brings up religion in any setting of negativity.

This.

When I question why people get so offended by female ghostbusters its all about freedom of speech and how PC has gone to far.

Ok then, lets discuss the downsides to ALL religions... Nope, not allowed. To delicate.

[DayRaven]

32 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

This.

When I question why people get so offended by female ghostbusters its all about freedom of speech and how PC has gone to far.

Ok then, lets discuss the downsides to ALL religions... Nope, not allowed. To delicate.

Hang on - wait a minute, that was not what I said. What I said was don't discuss the downsides of a specific persons religion and apply it to that person without evidence that they follow that negitive bit in their religion. Big difference. You say you're from Sweden. We can discuss the (insert swedish stereotype here - lets pretend there is a stereotype that Sweden has a terrible drinking problem) but it wouldn't be correct, when discussing you as a person and your business to claim, without evidence that because you are Swedish, or live in Sweden that you probably turn up late to every job because you are a drinker. That doesn't mean we can't discuss the drinking problem in Sweden, it means we don't consider you an alcoholic without evidence just because you live there.

My origional point was that positive stereotypes are just as problamatic as negative ones because they maintain the tribalism, maintain a "difference" between us and them and prevent different people from being comfortable with each other. It's nothing to do with political correctness, the Daily Mail's version of Godwin's Law - I'm not trying to stifle free speech, rather I'm exercising my own.

[Mattias Burling]

3 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

Hang on - wait a minute, that was not what I said. What I said was don't discuss the downsides of a specific persons religion and apply it to that person without evidence that they follow that negitive bit in their religion. Big difference. You say you're from Sweden. We can discuss the (insert swedish stereotype here - lets pretend there is a stereotype that Sweden has a terrible drinking problem) but it wouldn't be correct, when discussing you as a person and your business to claim, without evidence that because you are Swedish, or live in Sweden that you probably turn up late to every job because you are a drinker. That doesn't mean we can't discuss the drinking problem in Sweden, it means we don't consider you an alcoholic without evidence just because you live there.

My origional point was that positive stereotypes are just as problamatic as negative ones because they maintain the tribalism, maintain a "difference" between us and them and prevent different people from being comfortable with each other. It's nothing to do with political correctness, the Daily Mail's version of Godwin's Law - I'm not trying to stifle free speech, rather I'm exercising my own.

Didnt quote you. Have nothing against your point.

[Snowfun]

13 hours ago, Ed David said:

That's kind of what the film Spotlight taught me.  All the abuse by the Catholic church of molestation of boys across America, was silences, partially because of the power of the Catholic church and partially because liberals just don't want to offend a religion, I feel.

If people study the strengths and weaknesses of businesses, we can create businesses with a higher ethical standard and support them with our money. Reward those financial who are more ethical.

It's slightly tragic if you needed a film to teach you that.

It is preposterous to speak of "people", "we" and "our" in that sentence as if humanity is a homogenous mass who agree with and adhere to an objective "ethical standard". I suspect you are implying that "we" should agree with your ethical code... And that is just as discriminatory as everything else you object to.

 

[Ed_David]

Giving all people the same rights. The right to life liberty and a pursuit of happiness that is written in our declaration of independence. A standard of equality. That women are taken seriously when they talk. That minorities are taken seriously. That all religions are. And if a person or group of people abuse this...we protest. Just as we are protesting donald trump.

Is that discriminatory of me to ask for?

 

[mercer]

16 hours ago, Ed David said:

Chik Fil A is actively anti-queer with their donations

But I think we can all agree they're pro-delicious with their chicken. 

[Snowfun]

"Minorities are taken seriously"...

Even those minority groups who try to do civilised society harm? 

No one - certainly not me - would object to your eloquently stated desire for a more equal world. But surely you must also chuckle at the irony that here we are in this forum discussing whether we "need 4k" and sort of ignoring the fact that others "need" clean water, healthcare, basic education & human rights (including I would argue in those countries where a lot of the gear we use is made...)

You stance wrt BH and other stores might or might not be legitimate and/or effective. I'm sure we all have our own ways of contributing and making statements so public displays of the armour of the shining knight isn't necessary. 

I agree with your basic premise (assuming this to be that we need to reduce the world's inequalities).

I'm not so convinced that this is the time or the place or the vehicle to do it.

Tim