1dx mark ii, 4k 60fps?

[Oliver Daniel]

Sorry but 4K 60fps at 800Mbit/s is a total bullshit feature

10 minutes per 64GB card and impossible to edit without a transcoding step.

At $6k, only $2k off the price of an FS7 which does 4K 60fps in a body designed for video to a codec designed for editing.

Also there are so many cheap cameras that do 1080/60fps if slow-mo is your aim... Or even better many cameras half or even quarter the price of the 1D X Mark II that do 120fps!

Small correction. The GH3 was not the first to get 1080/50p... Sony NEX 7 was.

You see, we have had 60fps for mediocre slow-mo since 2011... why because it is now 4K is it suddenly a HUGE deal again?

 

Yes I have an A7SII being used all the time right now - 120fps, 4k, IBIS, low light, E-mount. It's fun!

The reason I'm interested in using this camera is because I much prefer the Canon image (C-series) and the features look promising. I like the small-ish form factor and stills. But like you said, could be total bullshit. Video dynamic range will probably be total crap. We'll see.

I'll rent it. Like the Scarlet-W and Ursa Mini. See what tickles. 

[Andrew Reid]

I prefer the Canon image as well but for sure as hell don't need 800Mbit/s 60fps file sizes.

Think I will wait and see what else comes out this year.

The 1D C's image is still the best 24p 4K for the money (and NX1 at the cheaper end).

[Jimmy]

You've gone completely Jeckle and Hyde here Andrew.

You are forever saying that, while feature laden for video, a camera like the FS7 is too big for your shooting style.... A camera comes out that offers you 4K/60p AND a small footprint and you call it a bullshit feature because the filesizes are a bit big and you have to transcode (you know, like you did when you were championing the NX1).

All of a sudden codec practicality trumps everything else? Seems very, very odd.... Like you are almost disappointed that Canon have done something fresh.

All this before even seeing any footage too.

[Andrew Reid]

File sizes are not too big for the NX1 at all. It doesn't need transcoding now, and it was always clear H.265 would get broad support in NLEs pretty quickly. The transcoding step I did put up with... it was a $1500 camera not a $6k one. I don't see why I should have to put up with MJPEG at $6k in 2016. On a used 1D C from 2012, that is understandable but it isn't now.

Yes the FS7 is too big for me which is why I got the FS5 instead!

My only use for 60p would be slow-mo. 60p offers mediocre slow-mo. I would rather sacrifice the resolution and unmanageable file sizes and shoot 240fps 1080p on the FS5... Oh did I mention the FS5 is also $400 cheaper than the 1D X Mark II, has a variable ND filter, LOG, small 4K file sizes, Speed Booster and proper video ergonomics & features?

[Jimmy]

There are very few shots that need anything more than 60fps... Especially if you shoot narrative.

4K/60p in such a small footprint is a big deal for ALOT of people. As is dual pixel AF (let's forget that you also get a class leading stills camera).

Even if it is not really for you... At least try to be unbiased enough to tip your hat to what Canon have seemingly achieved. I can;t help but think that if Nikon had launched this exact product, last week, your reaction would have been quite a bit different.

[Nick Hughes]

I doubt it is 500Mbit/s at 4K 60fps! The 1D C is 500Mbit/s in 24p - so a very nice image.

[BrorSvensson]

There are very few shots that need anything more than 60fps... Especially if you shoot narrative.

4K/60p in such a small footprint is a big deal for ALOT of people. As is dual pixel AF (let's forget that you also get a class leading stills camera).

Even if it is not really for you... At least try to be unbiased enough to tip your hat to what Canon have seemingly achieved. I can;t help but think that if Nikon had launched this exact product, last week, your reaction would have been quite a bit different.

Agreed, in skateboarding 60fps i close to a must. Thats why there really haven't been any skate videos at 4k (unless they were shot on a RED).  4k60p is as big of a deal for the 1080p60fps people (like me) as 4k was for the regular 1080p guys.
Im not saying the 1dx ii is the right camera but its great that its pushing this feature.

[Andrew Reid]

I'm open to correction on this, but my understanding of mjpeg is that this codec, unlike h264 is not computationally intensive.  Agreed, It takes up a lot more space than say h264 but editing should be simpler, especially if using proxy files for any 4k footage.

 

Speaking from my 1D C experience...

MJPEG is 500Mbit/s so the data rate for the CPU to handle is insane. Editing off an SSD or RAID 0 like I do the drives aren't a bottle neck, it's the CPU.

What compounds the problem is that MJPEG doesn't seem to be well supported with hardware acceleration.

The Mercury Engine in Premiere for instance seems to revert to software rather than hardware accelerated by Open CL or CUDA when it comes to MJPEG.

H.264 and H.265 may be more complex with the clever compression but it is hardware accelerated.

You will effectivly be editing MJPEG 4K 60fps at 800Mbit/s in software mode, on the CPU only. The effects will take ages to render too.

1D C 4K 24p is 500Mbit/s (same on 1D X Mark II)... this is tough enough, you really need to transcode to ProRes.

Again speaking from direct experience with the files, the H.264 4K from the GH4 and A7S II can be edited natively on my machine in Premiere with smooth playback especially at 1/2 res in the timeline monitor. MJPEG doesn't even play back smoothly when I reduce the playback res, which again points to the lack of proper support of such an old dated codec in a modern NLE.

Canon have made a mistake.

[Andrew Reid]

It's not hard on the disk... even 800Mbit/s is 80 megabytes per second off the drive and SSDs regularly do 500MB/s max, at least 350MB/s sustained.

The problem is the CPU and lack of hardware acceleration for MJPEG.

You can't apply much colour correction or effects in Premiere on 1D C footage and get smooth playback on the timeline without any rendering.

[Nikkor]

Well,uncompressed 1080p @ 24 raw is 570 Mbits/s, this makes 5dmkiii raw look good...

[Andrew Reid]

Ah well FCPX is newer architecture and will be quicker than Premiere.

My experiences are with 4K MJPEG at 24p in Premiere.

Besides I don't think FCPX will deal as smoothly with 4K MJPEG at 60fps as it does with the 1D C's 24fps. 4K 60fps is more than double the number of frames to deal with and 800Mbit/s a big increase from 500Mbit/s.

Hate to be negative but that's the way it is and I can't see it changing any time soon.

[RubanCam]

i do not think that Canon will not bring decent 4K video function in their DSLR lineup. They need to up sell their C XXX lineup to all the Canon faithful.

That could be a reason they may not have C-Log in  1DX II plus that 500 Mbps MJpeg Codec is not gonna help either.

 

 

[Oliver Daniel]

There are very few shots that need anything more than 60fps... Especially if you shoot narrative.

4K/60p in such a small footprint is a big deal for ALOT of people. As is dual pixel AF (let's forget that you also get a class leading stills camera).

Even if it is not really for you... At least try to be unbiased enough to tip your hat to what Canon have seemingly achieved. I can;t help but think that if Nikon had launched this exact product, last week, your reaction would have been quite a bit different.

I do plenty of music video shoots, and the data rate on the 4K/60fps isn't a massive issue. Most clips are 10-20 seconds long, cut with a performance in 25fps (UK). 

Files are always transcoded to ProRes and Proxy for quick editing, and will be done on an overnight basis. It's very rare that I have to edit files straight away, fresh off the shoot. 

It depends how this camera performs in the real world, nobody knows yet. The image might be worth it, maybe not. 

In other cams around this price range, there is the FS5 and Ursa Mini. The FS5 is especially interesting with the FS RAW update. It would be great for Convergent to release a 5Q recorder/monitor. Would be ideal. 

If the 1DX Mk II stacks up, and some uploaded pic profiles can increase dynamic range and roll off, and you like top end stills... It's a very tempting option. I love stills on Canon, far far more than Sony, regardless the less "flashy" technology. I wouldn't be surprised if this was disappointing, but certainly interesting. 

I need a "thick" image this year, and maybe a purchase of a major camera into the next year when the current new batch have matured, been tried and tested. That said, I'm having a lot of fun and fight with the A7SII! Bastard of a camera I seem to like!!

[sudopera]

Speaking from my 1D C experience...

MJPEG is 500Mbit/s so the data rate for the CPU to handle is insane. Editing off an SSD or RAID 0 like I do the drives aren't a bottle neck, it's the CPU.

What compounds the problem is that MJPEG doesn't seem to be well supported with hardware acceleration.

The Mercury Engine in Premiere for instance seems to revert to software rather than hardware accelerated by Open CL or CUDA when it comes to MJPEG.

H.264 and H.265 may be more complex with the clever compression but it is hardware accelerated.

You will effectivly be editing MJPEG 4K 60fps at 800Mbit/s in software mode, on the CPU only. The effects will take ages to render too.

1D C 4K 24p is 500Mbit/s (same on 1D X Mark II)... this is tough enough, you really need to transcode to ProRes.

Again speaking from direct experience with the files, the H.264 4K from the GH4 and A7S II can be edited natively on my machine in Premiere with smooth playback especially at 1/2 res in the timeline monitor. MJPEG doesn't even play back smoothly when I reduce the playback res, which again points to the lack of proper support of such an old dated codec in a modern NLE.

Canon have made a mistake.

A bit off topic, but this whole MJPEG editing issue is a little bit strange to me because I think ProRes is actualy some form of the same, but I'm not sure.

[Andrew Reid]

It's not.

[The Chris]

Oh did I mention the FS5 is also $400 cheaper than the 1D X Mark II, has a variable ND filter, LOG, small 4K file sizes, Speed Booster and proper video ergonomics & features?

Well to be fair, the FS5 is a video camera targeted at video shooters, the 1dxII is Canon's top of the line stills camera targeted at sports/wildlife shooters and photojournalists that also shoots 4k video, while being weather sealed, having one of the best AF systems on the planet, and offering 14fps with a 170 frame raw burst and so on....

Apples and oranges. To the max. People on this forum are not Canon's target with this camera, despite its video capabilities.

Look at the shutter count on used 1dx's, in many cases people are firing off 200,000+ frames a year. I've seen used models with over a 1,000,000 clicks on the shutter.

The upcoming 5d4 will probably fill the 4k void at a lower price point. The 5d3 was dropped shortly after the 1dx started shipping, hopefully the pattern continues. 

[sudopera]

It's not.

thanks

[Nikkor]

So if the 5dmkiv gets 4k it will also have the crappy mjpg thing?

[tugela]

 

Editor issues.

[roxics]

So if the 5dmkiv gets 4k it will also have the crappy mjpg thing?

My guess is that the 5D4 will get 4K (up to 30fps and 60fps in 1080) with a 100mbps H.264 implementation. If we're luckly it will get a CFast slot in there so the Magic Lantern team can do their work. Otherwise I don't know how that camera would fare with Magic Lantern. Probably very cropped 1080p raw. But I doubt it will have CFast.