Canon 5D mark iii RAW video quality in 2016

[kidzrevil]

I've been thinking of picking up a 5D mark iii over a blackmagic pocket for some months now. Its been really hard to find recent footage from the hacked 5D. I am not chasing resolution I just want quality RAW footage so :

How is the magic lantern hack in 2016 ? Is it more stable than it was when RAW was first introduced to the 5D ? Is the boost in image quality worth it as far as workflow and storage etc. are concerned ? How does it compare to its competitors like blackmagic and Sony ?

[TheRenaissanceMan]

What made you lean more toward the 5D in the first place? What type of stuff do you shoot? What's your working style? Do you need the option of fast turnaround? How much are you willing to invest in SD/CF/HD space? Do you have a pre-existing lens collection, or are you starting from scratch? Is low size/weight important to you? Do you have experience with color correction? Are you interested in buying more than one for multi-cam shoots? Do you usually nail your exposure, or need more latitude to fix it in grading? Which camera's footage appeals to you more? Is a camera crash once in a while okay, or do you need 100% reliability? 

[Inazuma]

I've been following you for a few years kidzrevil. Big fan of your work. I've noticed you've been through a couple different cameras recently. What's up?

[jpfilmz]

 

 

 

I've been thinking of picking up a 5D mark iii over a blackmagic pocket for some months now. Its been really hard to find recent footage from the hacked 5D. I am not chasing resolution I just want quality RAW footage so :

How is the magic lantern hack in 2016 ? Is it more stable than it was when RAW was first introduced to the 5D ? Is the boost in image quality worth it as far as workflow and storage etc. are concerned ? How does it compare to its competitors like blackmagic and Sony ?

I have both. 5DMK3 Raw is very stable with the right cards.  I cannot go back to 8bit for anything except long form events.  The RAW work flow is really not a hassle and it's much like the workflow for handling RAW images. DNG creation is easy with the 5D raw files and from there its the same experience as editing blackmagic DNG files in Davinchi Resolve. If your looking for a raw camera for only video then I would recommend the Blackmagic Pocket ONLY if you purchase a speed booster to go along with it.  With the speed booster you will be able to shoot on par with a 5DMK3 in low light situations. The only weaknesses of the Blackmagic pocket is the chance of moire, poor battery life, horrible audio preamps(only remedied by using a videomic pro with +25 db set).  5D raw weaknesses, poor in camera playback and much shorter record times while using raw.  Below is some 5D Raw footage I shot at 2 weddings in 2015 scaled up to 4K. 

[gsenroc]

I'm curious about how 5D3 works when taking video. Does it oversampling the whole FF sensor then output 1080p at 24/25/30p?

[kidzrevil]

I've been following you for a few years kidzrevil. Big fan of your work. I've noticed you've been through a couple different cameras recently. What's up?

Thank you ! Im searching for the perfect camera even though it doesn't exist lmao ! Nah I really just like to experiment man and as my knowledge grows and style evolves I really need the right lens/camera combo to express it. Honestly some of my best work was with the gh3/gh4 and I wouldn't mind picking up a gh4 with speedbooster but strangely enough these agencies kinda look the other way when a 5D isn't on your equipment list. Either way with the way I grade and how the 5D sensor renders color I think I can get amazing results from it. I just need to know if the current magic lantern build is stable enough to do a paid gig with.

this was my first project with a t3i loaded with magic lantern https://vimeo.com/39108335

 

What made you lean more toward the 5D in the first place? What type of stuff do you shoot? What's your working style? Do you need the option of fast turnaround? How much are you willing to invest in SD/CF/HD space? Do you have a pre-existing lens collection, or are you starting from scratch? Is low size/weight important to you? Do you have experience with color correction? Are you interested in buying more than one for multi-cam shoots? Do you usually nail your exposure, or need more latitude to fix it in grading? Which camera's footage appeals to you more? Is a camera crash once in a while okay, or do you need 100% reliability? 

that's a lot of questions bro lol. In short for the content I plan to shoot with it (fashion editorials, b-roll for short films) it would be nice to have the same flexibility and quality as you get from RAW stills. Most of my work are shot in 8-10 second bursts (unless its an interview and I will not be shooting interviews with this) so after converting to cineform raw I should be good on space. Camera crashing is certainly not ok thats why I am asking in this thread if magic lantern has worked out the kinks. I know those guys work really hard and when I had my t3i it stepped up the quality of my work big time ! Size/weight is not important to me I am in the military I am using to carrying rifles etc. and my hands are pretty steady so im not worried about that. I will get a z-finder loupe if I do purchase the 5D. As far as cameras are concerned I know there is a time and place for everything and I am keeping my NX1 because of the quality and low file sizes. I'll bring the NX1 out for documentaries,interviews, narratives etc. best of both worlds is what I am aiming for with a 5D x NX1 setup

I have both. 5DMK3 Raw is very stable with the right cards.  I cannot go back to 8bit for anything except long form events.  The RAW work flow is really not a hassle and it's much like the workflow for handling RAW images. DNG creation is easy with the 5D raw files and from there its the same experience as editing blackmagic DNG files in Davinchi Resolve. If your looking for a raw camera for only video then I would recommend the Blackmagic Pocket ONLY if you purchase a speed booster to go along with it.  With the speed booster you will be able to shoot on par with a 5DMK3 in low light situations. The only weaknesses of the Blackmagic pocket is the chance of moire, poor battery life, horrible audio preamps(only remedied by using a videomic pro with +25 db set).  5D raw weaknesses, poor in camera playback and much shorter record times while using raw.  Below is some 5D Raw footage I shot at 2 weddings in 2015 scaled up to 4K. 

Yeah I feel like you will be getting more for your $ out of the 5D with a full frame aesthetic to go with my crop sensor camera

[Bioskop.Inc]

Kidz - buy a pocket & a cheap speedbooster (RJ are the best - don't get sucked in to the marketing of spending the same amount of money on the metabones) and if you don't fall in love with the footage, then you'll be forever chasing that camera which doesn't exist.

Honestly, with the pocket you don't even have to use RAW - if you can't shoot & grade ProRes HQ 10 bit footage then you should put down your camera & walk away!

Also, ML will crash & when it does you'll curse the day you ever thought that it was 100% stable (it did it to me on a paid job & I was lucky the client was understanding - it fucked me & fucked me hard!). What a lot of people who rave about ML won't tell you is that the ML developers have pretty much stopped developing RAW on Canon cameras, as they are doing so much work on another camera's firmware. One of the ML developers or ex-developers is on this forum & raves about the Pocket - enough said.

I was like you at one point & I just stopped searching after using 10bit footage - the only camera that will replace my Pocket is the soon to be released Micro version & even then I'll keep my Pocket cam. Suck it & see - wait a little as the prices will drop once the micro comes out!

 

[squig]

Unless some unforeseen issue emerges, I'm going to be replacing my 5D mk3 raw z-finder smallHD AC7 combo with a Blackmagic micro cinema camera, speed booster, mosaic filter, and smallHD 501/sidefinder. Magic Lantern has been fairly stable for me, I've never lost any footage, just the occasional crash usually due to random button pressing. Reasons for upgrading: +2 stops dynamic range; global shutter; 1080p 60p; better low light capability (in real shooting scenarios); and of course stability.  Because I've been shooting raw for the past couple of years the workflow is almost identical. The Magic Lantern/5D image looks great, but I think the BMMCC will look even better, and most importantly I'll be able to shoot scenes that are beyond the capabilities of the 5D.

[kidzrevil]

Kidz - buy a pocket & a cheap speedbooster (RJ are the best - don't get sucked in to the marketing of spending the same amount of money on the metabones) and if you don't fall in love with the footage, then you'll be forever chasing that camera which doesn't exist.

Honestly, with the pocket you don't even have to use RAW - if you can't shoot & grade ProRes HQ 10 bit footage then you should put down your camera & walk away!

Also, ML will crash & when it does you'll curse the day you ever thought that it was 100% stable (it did it to me on a paid job & I was lucky the client was understanding - it fucked me & fucked me hard!). What a lot of people who rave about ML won't tell you is that the ML developers have pretty much stopped developing RAW on Canon cameras, as they are doing so much work on another camera's firmware. One of the ML developers or ex-developers is on this forum & raves about the Pocket - enough said.

I was like you at one point & I just stopped searching after using 10bit footage - the only camera that will replace my Pocket is the soon to be released Micro version & even then I'll keep my Pocket cam. Suck it & see - wait a little as the prices will drop once the micro comes out!

 

gonna do some research on the pocket & micro. i liked what I was seeing from it I guess the batt life is just something to deal with, I only need it for b-roll anyway ! Its funny you say ML stopped supporting it , the last thing I need is this shit crashing on me on a paid gig. I was happy with the a7s until the blue clipping got me fired & cussed out when it completely destroyed my clients performance video ! I've been feeling like a raw image is the way to go its legit the difference between shooting jpg & shooting raw with a stills cam. Appreciate the info

[kidzrevil]

Unless some unforeseen issue emerges, I'm going to be replacing my 5D mk3 raw z-finder smallHD AC7 combo with a Blackmagic micro cinema camera, speed booster, mosaic filter, and smallHD 501/sidefinder. Magic Lantern has been fairly stable for me, I've never lost any footage, just the occasional crash usually due to random button pressing. Reasons for upgrading: +2 stops dynamic range; global shutter; 1080p 60p; better low light capability (in real shooting scenarios); and of course stability.  Because I've been shooting raw for the past couple of years the workflow is almost identical. The Magic Lantern/5D image looks great, but I think the BMMCC will look even better, and most importantly I'll be able to shoot scenes that are beyond the capabilities of the 5D.

so I guess the 5D aint worth it huh ? I can do 60p with my nx1 and I rarely use slow mo any way so im not worried about it. I see a new 5d with battery grip for $2,500 on ebay right now ! How is the image quality of the 5D raw ? Worth the price tag ?

[dhessel]

What ML did with the 5DIII and 5DII was remarkable, but at the end of the day it is a hack. It is doing something the camera was not designed to do and will probably never be something I would trust with paid work. I loved my 5DII with ML raw but it is what it is.

[Hans Punk]

Not technically a hack (but take your point) - as the ML firmware runs 'on top' of the canon code. You can still access canon menus and unload/ load ML firmware at any time.

Canon DSLR's (specifically 5D2) was never primarily intended to be used as a video camera to start with - it was a last minute request by stills photogs to be able to shoot video clips for news websites. If anything the 'DSLR revolution' was the hack...dragging a non primary feature of a stills camera - kicking and screaming into the filmmaking community.

I would (and have) used 5D3 running ML on paid gigs, but never as A-camera. Not because of reliability issues - but mainly due to MB/s being so high, it is often impractical to allow to roll for multiple long takes. I recently used 5D3 as C-camera next to Amira's on an electric motorbike commercial, had no issue matching the image from the Arri cameras. Form factor of the 5D3 was a huge bonus - as it could be rigged very easily and be maneuvered between A-B Cam, often capturing better action. The final edit resulted in roughly 40% material shot from the canon. When the commercial goes live, I'll post a link.

BMPCC + Speedbooster looks very very nice and is best route for 99% of compact/raw loving folks, but if you 'need' full frame look with very beautiful colour rendition - ML on 5D2/3 still seems to be a gold standard, despite the huge file sizes and clunky workflow.

 

[kidzrevil]

Not technically a hack (but take your point) - as the ML firmware runs 'on top' of the canon code. You can still access canon menus and unload/ load ML firmware at any time.

Canon DSLR's (specifically 5D2) was never primarily intended to be used as a video camera to start with - it was a last minute request by stills photogs to be able to shoot video clips for news websites. If anything the 'DSLR revolution' was the hack...dragging a non primary feature of a stills camera - kicking and screaming into the filmmaking community.

I would (and have) used 5D3 running ML on paid gigs, but never as A-camera. Not because of reliability issues - but mainly due to MB/s being so high, it is often impractical to allow to roll for multiple long takes. I recently used 5D3 as C-camera next to Amira's on an electric motorbike commercial, had no issue matching the image from the Arri cameras. Form factor of the 5D3 was a huge bonus - as it could be rigged very easily and be maneuvered between A-B Cam, often capturing better action. The final edit resulted in roughly 40% material shot from the canon. When the commercial goes live, I'll post a link.

BMPCC + Speedbooster looks very very nice and is best route for 99% of compact/raw loving folks, but if you 'need' full frame look with very beautiful colour rendition - ML on 5D2/3 still seems to be a gold standard, despite the huge file sizes and clunky workflow.

 

sounds good, cause all I wanted it for was b-roll & full frame stills. I wouldn't shoot a take beyond 10 seconds

[Liam]

for 10 seconds at a time, and stills, yeah 5d, but if you want most reliable raw video and don't love tiny sensor, maybe BMCC - probably still cheaper than what you're looking at. better resolution than both, great sensor size when speedboosted, best blackmagic image I've seen, better battery life (but trickier when it dies... probably battery solution needed). 5d raw is great though of course. can't wait to see what you can do with this  

edit: plus the bmcc is huge.....

[Hans Punk]

Could be a good fit for you then. Since you mentioned B-camera use and short bursts being the primary use. Using the 5x 'crop mode' feature in Magic Lantern would enable you to shoot bursts of around 8-10 secs at the highest 2.5-3k resolution in raw (until the buffer chokes using 5D3) Since the crop mode effectively windows 1:1 on a centre portion of the sensor, you could use wider lenses - not even suitable for full frame coverage, and still cover the capture area. 5D2/3 could be a good choice, as you obviously have ability to quickly switch to conventional stills whenever you need. The  5D3 has the slight edge in that you can also shoot 48 or 50fps, which might be a big plus if you are capturing bursts at a time. I've had really nice results from shooting full sensor 'silent picture' bursts (basically a stills burst mode when in live view) you only get about one seconds worth of full resolution captured stills, but if the frames are crisp from high enough shutter speed, you can re-time the image sequence down to 1-2% with Twixtor or the inbuilt re-time effect in after effects, to create very nice slomo 'moving pictures' - like a snippet from a phantom high speed camera.

[DPStewart]

Hi guys,

I'm new to this forum, but some of you know me from the Blackmagic Forum or from almost a decade on DVXUser.

The 5D mkIII shooting M.L. RAW is STILL the best image out of any DSLR. I STILL wish I could afford to add one even today. And I have 4 Blackmagic cameras. One Cinema 2.5K and three Pockets.
I also have a Samsung NX1, two hacked Panasonic GH2's, and three Canon DSLR's: A T2i, a 70D mkII, and a 6D.

First of all - I run Magic Lantern on ALL my Canons ALWAYS no matter what. IT'S FINE. ("Hack" is not really the right word as Hans just pointed out.) It adds so many great features that even if you never use the RAW functions, it's almost like a whole new camera.
My Canon's with ML have NEVER crashed on me strangely enough - I say that because almost every camera I've ever worked with HAS crashed or frozen on me at some point -and I mean with their own normal stock firmware.

Second - RAW beats everything. Hands down. No contest. Not even close. Once you've shot RAW you'll never want to go back. 
And memory is really no longer a problem. I got a handful of Sandisk Extreme Pro 256Gig cards for about $150 each and I get OVER an HOUR of RAW on each one. (Plus I can use them on every single other camera I have.) The FREE DaVinci Resolve 12 just plays and edits these files normally. Just drag and drop. No doing anything extra. Premiere Pro is even close on Resolve's heels now with RAW handling too.
The whole thing about RAW being too hard to work with is in the past - and aside from my nVidea 970 card I only spent $900 on my computer and it handles the RAW files as normally as any other.

Third - If you use a BMPCC (Pocket) you will really get much better imagery with RAW. For some reason the ProRes on the Pocket Camera is significantly inferior to the RAW - while on the Cinema Camera 2.5k the ProRes is much closer in quality to the RAW. I don't know why...but it is pretty well known.

I think the 5D M.L. RAW is absolutely as great looking as the Blackmagic. Canon color science is phenomenal. Plus the low-light abilities of their full-frame sensors are topped only by the Sony A7 cameras - which I think look like crap and refuse to use.
Plus, on the 5D you get better audio, and one of the best stills cameras ever made. You might ask why I don't have one then? It's just a money thing. $2,500 for just a body is more than any camera I have. I got the 6D and it's nearly the same image - which I got mainly for low-light work - but sadly its small buffers prevent it from shooting RAW in full 1080p like the 5D can.

As for Speedboosters - The Metabones BMPCC specific booster is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the cheaper ones. I have the cheaper ones too (Mitakon) and they are GREAT! They never come off my GH2's or Cinema Camera. But the BMPCC specific one is seriously better. It's a bit better optically (not that the Mitakon is bad - it's NOT. The Metabones is just a tad better.) And the extra light and the bigger field of view it delivers on the BMPCC are absolutely worth the extra couple hundred bucks. 

My third BMPCC was used - so as soon as I got it I shot a good bit of colorful footage to verify all was well. 
Here's that video if you care to check it.
NOTE: I made exposure adjustments to match changing light conditions but this has ZERO color correction nor color grading done to it. Just in and out with DaVinci Resolve 12's standard automatic RAW to Rec.709 conversion. I didn't apply LUTs or anything.

~Cheers!

https://vimeo.com/149123448
 

[Antonis]

I used the 5DMKiii for a whole day's shoot and it did not skip a beat for us.
https://vimeo.com/122567314

I have also used the BMPCC a couple of times and whenever I have the choice, I would go for the 5Dmkiii 99% of the time.
The audio is much better on the Canon and the FF look is much more appealing to me.
Plus I prefer the overal image and colour from the 5D over the BMPCC.

I'll try to upload some 5Dmkiii DNG sequences for you in that other thread tonight.

 

[Bioskop.Inc]

gonna do some research on the pocket & micro. i liked what I was seeing from it I guess the batt life is just something to deal with, I only need it for b-roll anyway ! Its funny you say ML stopped supporting it , the last thing I need is this shit crashing on me on a paid gig. I was happy with the a7s until the blue clipping got me fired & cussed out when it completely destroyed my clients performance video ! I've been feeling like a raw image is the way to go its legit the difference between shooting jpg & shooting raw with a stills cam. Appreciate the info

For all those people saying ML has never crashed, well they're lucky - but it does & they will experience it one day.

Battery life is of no concern on the Pocket, as it lasts about 45/50mins & since I shoot ProRes HQ, when my SD card is full and needs changing, I change the battery at the same time.

RAW is awesome, but I've only needed to use it twice and that's simply because 10bit ProRes is amazing!

The whole Full Frame thing is of no concern to me - I love S16 sized sensor & the way it looks. My cheap speedbooster get me to M4/3 sized sensor, which is nice too and one day I'll get the metabones for normal cinema standard size, but don't feel the need just yet.

Also, if you like adding grain to your footage, the Pocket produce one of the nicest looking of all the cheap cameras (really is Alexa-like) when you underexpose or have to raise exposure in post - so no more grain in post needed!

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

A 5DIII plus ML is the best video camera money can buy under 5000$. My opinion.

Some other cameras have higher resolution for cropping (4k) but none has the colour fedility and overal much better film like image quality. It's 14bit FF 1080p. No other camera provides that killer aesthetic combo. Just simply a better image than GH4/A7S/NX1 even C100/II. All of these have thin 8bit colours, unacceptable rolling shutter, macroblocking and compression artefacts, imposed video-ish digital sharpening, 

And not just in sheer image quality but ergonomics and usability which overlooked. The 5DIII is the nicest body I've used, the size/weight/robustness, button/dial placement for exposure & WB changing, plus all the video features you can imagine as in focus peaking, zebras, waveform, even false colour, intervalometer, fps adjustable from 0.125 to 30p, RGB histogram, smooth AUTO ISO shifts, and much more.

And if you pay and get the absolute best cards, it's as reliable as any camera, more reliable than the pocket in my experience which is very finicky with card choice (but both reliable for pro work - trust me) 

Plus the 5D has a sensor crop mode, to pocket size-ish with almost 2.5k/3K resolution. The audio quality is vastly superior to the pocket, so is the speed of settings adjustment, boot up time, focusing ease, LCD quality, EF lenses FF with IS, battery life (pocket nightmare), dual card slots, Just a wonderful piece of kit. Not to mention the stills and timelapse benefit.

Downsides:

-no EVF --> fixed with loup.

-No 4K resolution --> I much refer the better colours, DR and bigger sensor and lowlight, especially since it's a very sharp 1080p image.

-no small codecs like ProRes --> if you're restricted with storage.

 

5D raw package will be a relevant camera for as long as HD exists (years and years to come) and even the 5DIV will not get the ML or RAW most likely just h.264 4K.

 

Pocket camera is unfair to compare to a 3x more expensive camera with a s16 vs FF sensor.

But for someone who wants to get the 5Draw-ish image on a low budget the pocket provides that, a very very thick s16 cinematic image (and 1.7x with SB) with wonderfull skin and colour science. Great camera too. Just lower-end and thus costs less with the corresponding downsides. It's a hell of a filmic image for so little money. Just out the box with a cheap 50mm prime blew me away. The ability to shoot small yet-still-great ProRes files is the one advantage over the 5D otherwise he 5DIII is the better (and more expensive camera) 

For anyone looking for the absolute best IQ and doesn't 'need' 4K delivery:

Go or the 5DIII ML or BM Pocket/2.5kbmcc. depending on budget and need.

[Antonis]

^ Could not agree more with you!

Also, I found the BMPCC screen a nightmare to use for judging proper exposure. 
The histogram doesn't always show you the finer underexposed areas of your subject and I found that the BMPCC doesn't deal well with underexposure either.
Ideally you would want to use an external monitor with a (optional) LUT table if you go down this route.