kidzrevil Posted April 24, 2016 Author Share Posted April 24, 2016 @/Chop N Shoot Films/ ??? not saying anything is wrong with it, I haven't tested it yet. I was saying I hope we can get the hacked bitrate high enough to totally get rid of the macroblocking in the deep shadows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/Chop N Shoot Films/ Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 5 hours ago, kidzrevil said: @/Chop N Shoot Films/ ??? not saying anything is wrong with it, I haven't tested it yet. I was saying I hope we can get the hacked bitrate high enough to totally get rid of the macroblocking in the deep shadows I thought it was said that 160 was the max for HEVC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syme Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 3 hours ago, /Chop N Shoot Films/ said: I thought it was said that 160 was the max for HEVC There is no real hard limit to the bitrate of HEVC. Yes there is a maximum rate specified for each "level" of the standard, but that has nothing to do with the actual codec. What it really means is that all compatible HEVC decoders need to be able to decode at least 160mbit/s to meet the level 5.1 standard. That way any video that meets those specifications will play on any compliant decoder. It's a completely arbitrary number. No sane HEVC encoder cares about that part of the standard. It will happily spit out bits as fast as its algorithm and clock rate can keep up. The actual limit for a given piece of hardware or software depends on many things, but it almost certainly isn't exactly 160mbit/s. I hope that makes sense. Marco Tecno and vaga 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anton Chugar Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 On 21.4.2016 at 8:24 PM, hk908 said: Do you have LUT Buddy from Red Giant installed? No, I don´t. I thought lut buddy works only on mac. I will check it out. Thanks! On 21.4.2016 at 8:46 PM, RieGo said: i completely forgot about this! so what do nx500 people think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMGJohn Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 17 hours ago, hini said: @SMGJohn Thank you I need try Android. Maybe it is IOS NX500 related. It could be, I do not see any reasons for having the RAW on the phone so I have not used it for the NX500 but I have used it on the NX1 multiple times and it gives me JPEG's and RAW which is what I set it for, but it just waste space for me so I only keep JPEG's on the phone in case I must send it. Do your iPhone use NFC? I always connected via NFC perhaps using Bluetooth could cause the issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/Chop N Shoot Films/ Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 6 hours ago, Syme said: There is no real hard limit to the bitrate of HEVC. Yes there is a maximum rate specified for each "level" of the standard, but that has nothing to do with the actual codec. What it really means is that all compatible HEVC decoders need to be able to decode at least 160mbit/s to meet the level 5.1 standard. That way any video that meets those specifications will play on any compliant decoder. It's a completely arbitrary number. No sane HEVC encoder cares about that part of the standard. It will happily spit out bits as fast as its algorithm and clock rate can keep up. The actual limit for a given piece of hardware or software depends on many things, but it almost certainly isn't exactly 160mbit/s. I hope that makes sense. I get that but is a higher bitrate the only answer for eliminating macroblocking? Pardon my ignorance on this. Could something along the lines of creating a real log profile for the camera be more beneficial to the overall image quality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasile Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 http://***URL removed***/forums/post/57659433 http://***URL removed***/forums/post/57659433 regards :-) MKSN, tokhee and Beritar 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hini Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 @SMGJohn Thank you. I don´t want have my RAW files on my phone, eat too much space. I just want shooting RAW files with my NE500. Using my iPhone only for remote viewfinder, shutter. No, as far as I know there is no NFC iPhone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syme Posted April 24, 2016 Share Posted April 24, 2016 5 hours ago, /Chop N Shoot Films/ said: I get that but is a higher bitrate the only answer for eliminating macroblocking? Pardon my ignorance on this. Could something along the lines of creating a real log profile for the camera be more beneficial to the overall image quality? I don't know. It's probably somewhat subjective what would be best for overall image quality. I'm not sure what a real log profile would do to macroblocking. The best settings for real usage will have to be determined by people actually using the camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerbeat Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 12 hours ago, /Chop N Shoot Films/ said: I get that but is a higher bitrate the only answer for eliminating macroblocking? Pardon my ignorance on this. I did the test shooting with and without bitrate hack to see if it helps to eliminate macroblocking. Yes, it goes in right direction, but not there yet, and not because of hack itself it's only about sd-cards speed limits. We can use 150-190 mbps at the time, there is no SD card which can provide more. Yet. But still, it is a big progress. Even at 160 mbps there is a detectable visual upgrade compares to 80 mbps, but you need to know where to search. I think it's about CTU in HEVC, at larger bitrates codec is not eliminate macroblocks in picture per se, but replaces them with Coding Tree Units more efficiently than with smaller bitrates. At some point in post processing you can see when there's large blocks occur in 80 mbps file, but in 160 mbps file - only a "three" somewhat like "fractal blocks" of much smaller blocks. H265 use CTU for replacing macroblocks. So, overall quality is improve with bitrate hack, but macroblocking is not eliminated completely. Here is the test results, two heavily destructed sequences for more visual reference, left side - 150 mbps source, right side - 80 mbps source. Both sources recorded in UHD@30 with identical setting and environment, only difference is the bitrate. Scale around 300% for better proof and to eliminate influence of export bitrate. Forgot to mention that I did the test with NX1 12 hours ago, /Chop N Shoot Films/ said: Could something along the lines of creating a real log profile for the camera be more beneficial to the overall image quality? It depends of scene that you shooting. Some scenes can't be record with small bitrate without macroblocking at all, they even close to crash with high bitrate option, but it works in far more cases than I did imagine before I start to use bitrate hack. Now I shoot only with it, but of course, if there new options appears, I'm ready to consider them in work. Also you can shoot with pretty much close to LOG settings and even create special NX LUTs for standart situations for exact yours setup. Basically you just need a few hours and some color checker for starters And yes, I'm also wants the real log profile and 10 or 12 bit color, for shure! But really I think that bitrate hack is just a first step in better overall quality path, bc without it I highly doubt that only 10bit color itself did all the work, like, how about beautiful 4K picture with 10bit color but H-U-G-E one helluva macroblock in the center of frame, like 480p-block? It might be the case very easily Hanriverprod and Pavel Mašek 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Mašek Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 7 hours ago, outerbeat said: So, overall quality is improve with bitrate hack, but macroblocking is not eliminated completely. As it was said before on dpreview - removing NR could also help with macroblocking. Plain areas where are now macroblocks (yes, they are much less visible and footage is much better for grading with bitrate hack) would be divided because of noise grains. It seems that there is some progress in dpreview so hopefully one day... outerbeat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 @Pavel Mašek you've noticed an improvement in image quality with the bitrate hack ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerbeat Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 3 hours ago, Pavel Mašek said: As it was said before on dpreview - removing NR could also help with macroblocking. Plain areas where are now macroblocks (yes, they are much less visible and footage is much better for grading with bitrate hack) would be divided because of noise grains. It seems that there is some progress in dpreview so hopefully one day... Yes, I agree, removing NR could help to reduce MB, but it's also very depends. To be clear HEVC actually doesn't use MB at all, this codec have new feature - CTU, and this one goes far more then usual MB. Maybe, just maybe, NR is better for HEVC. because of basic structure and size of single block, which can be just 4x4 px and grouped in "trees" - variable larger block structures up to 64x64 px, so It is actually might increase visual noise when it "smoothing" single noise pixel by 4x4 single prediction or transform block when NR is removed. Actually this Kino Seed's nx500 2,5K footage without NR seems to be slightly affected by this, but I can't tell that I'm 100% shure of this, it's just might be To be clear I don't know this for real and I know nothing actually about videocoding in terms of programming but I'm trying to use my very little knowledge to explain this things that my eyes seeng at least for myself )) Don't take my word on it, do test yourself or use mine - actually there is clear difference between block structure between 80 and 150 mbps footages Pavel Mašek 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Mašek Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 43 minutes ago, kidzrevil said: @Pavel Mašek you've noticed an improvement in image quality with the bitrate hack ? Yes, indeed - just check NX1/NX500 Hack video thread here. You can push shadows far more, image is slightly more detailed in darker parts... I will not come back to 80Mbit anyway :-). Bad thing is that biggest difference is in 1080p modes but safest useable working bitrate has to be lower for them: 4K30p- 180Mbits, no issues (I have recorded more than 30 minutes timelapse with it), the highest bitrate I can safely use... but depends on the card 1080p60fps - 180Mbits - no dropped frames and really beautiful image BUT there are sometimes weirdly corrupted frames, so best bitrate for me for this mode is 140Mbits (I have not seen any issue so far, but I am not 100% sure) 1080p120fps - I have got some dropped frames even with 110Mbit so best would be obviously 100 Mbits but unfortunately there is no other free slot for custom bitrate: you can define you own bitrate for Pro and HQ but not for Normal (Vasile's bitrate hack 2.0). In summary: each resolution has it own max. bitrate so right now if want to use 1080p120fps I had to turn of the BT OFF and restart camera. Then all bitrates modes return back to factory settings. I personally prefer quality so I will rather use only superb 4K180Mbps and 60fps1080p140Mbits instead of sometimes mediocre 120fps80Mbits. I can see macroblocking very rarely and it almost completely disappears after conversion to 16-235 (I know that some will not agree with it - loosing full luma range 0-255 just in sake of removing remaining macroblocking). kidzrevil and outerbeat 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidzrevil Posted April 25, 2016 Author Share Posted April 25, 2016 @Pavel Mašek hmm how can I install this using the settings that you just reccomended ? I want to test it out before I use it on anything serious. and you are right about the luma range thing. I've been noticing a lot of detail when converting to 16-235 from 0-255 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Mašek Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, kidzrevil said: @Pavel Mašek hmm how can I install this using the settings that you just reccomended ? I want to test it out before I use it on anything serious. and you are right about the luma range thing. I've been noticing a lot of detail when converting to 16-235 from 0-255 Biggest achievement in NX1 hacking and you have missed it? :-) Here it is http://***URL removed***/forums/thread/3989988 outerbeat and kidzrevil 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasile Posted April 25, 2016 Share Posted April 25, 2016 Tonight's challenge for you all - see at end of this post:http://***URL removed***/forums/post/57665536 And a bonus: if you read the rest of that post you might also see some other interesting stuff... Vasile kidzrevil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasile Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 14 hours ago, Pavel Mašek said: Yes, indeed - just check NX1/NX500 Hack video thread here. You can push shadows far more, image is slightly more detailed in darker parts... I will not come back to 80Mbit anyway :-). Bad thing is that biggest difference is in 1080p modes but safest useable working bitrate has to be lower for them: 4K30p- 180Mbits, no issues (I have recorded more than 30 minutes timelapse with it), the highest bitrate I can safely use... but depends on the card 1080p60fps - 180Mbits - no dropped frames and really beautiful image BUT there are sometimes weirdly corrupted frames, so best bitrate for me for this mode is 140Mbits (I have not seen any issue so far, but I am not 100% sure) 1080p120fps - I have got some dropped frames even with 110Mbit so best would be obviously 100 Mbits but unfortunately there is no other free slot for custom bitrate: you can define you own bitrate for Pro and HQ but not for Normal (Vasile's bitrate hack 2.0). In summary: each resolution has it own max. bitrate so right now if want to use 1080p120fps I had to turn of the BT OFF and restart camera. Then all bitrates modes return back to factory settings. I personally prefer quality so I will rather use only superb 4K180Mbps and 60fps1080p140Mbits instead of sometimes mediocre 120fps80Mbits. I can see macroblocking very rarely and it almost completely disappears after conversion to 16-235 (I know that some will not agree with it - loosing full luma range 0-255 just in sake of removing remaining macroblocking). Ok did not realize more would be useful. Will keep this in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Mašek Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 4 hours ago, vasile said: Ok did not realize more would be useful. Will keep this in mind. Custom bitrate for Normal mode would be great but I did not want to ask you - it might look like I am complaining. (it seems I am only one who would welcome this option) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerbeat Posted April 26, 2016 Share Posted April 26, 2016 3 hours ago, Pavel Mašek said: Custom bitrate for Normal mode would be great but I did not want to ask you - it might look like I am complaining. (it seems I am only one who would welcome this option) +1 here, it might be useful for testing Pavel Mašek 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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