Petition for Samsung NX1 hack

[undecided]

16 minutes ago, Marco Tecno said:

Referring to nx1, each raw file (28mp) is about 40MB. So 30fps would translate into 1.2GB/sec. So even if the sensor could be able to stream at that rate, no IO device could record it (possibly those new pci-e ssd devices, but you'd need 1TB for few minutes of video...).

It's 35MB for 28MP and that equates to 6.5K video. 2/3 of that would be 4k which would make the bandwidth about 23.3MB. and let's do 25 fps, comes out to 582MB. Still too much.

[Marco Tecno]

undecided, if real raw, then it can only be 6.5k (or 4k if cropped, not downscaled). 4k downscaled involves processing, hence can't be raw...

[SR]

Ah, it appears EOSHD is being the unofficial NX1 forum. Love, love, love this initiative (I'd kill for raw video). Also, is rolling shutter dependent on hardware or software processing? 

[TheRenaissanceMan]

24 minutes ago, SR said:

Ah, it appears EOSHD is being the unofficial NX1 forum. Love, love, love this initiative (I'd kill for raw video). Also, is rolling shutter dependent on hardware or software processing? 

Hardware. No hack will improve RS. The 1080p mode is pretty good in that regard, though.

[SR]

12 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Hardware. No hack will improve RS. The 1080p mode is pretty good in that regard, though.

Thanks. I think I'm a little spoiled by the 4k. The image looks impeccable (comparatively even on my 1080p laptop screen - voodoo, perhaps?)

[kidzrevil]

6 hours ago, Marco Tecno said:

Referring to nx1, each raw file (28mp) is about 40MB. So 30fps would translate into 1.2GB/sec. So even if the sensor could be able to stream at that rate, no IO device could record it (possibly those new pci-e ssd devices, but you'd need 1TB for few minutes of video...).

It is infinitely more realistic to get a high bit rate in camera and convert the 4k file into 10bit 444 prores later. Its the closest we'll get to raw 

[SR]

13 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

It is infinitely more realistic to get a high bit rate in camera and convert the 4k file into 10bit 444 prores later. Its the closest we'll get to raw 

Would a higher bit rate 8bit file have the DR and color depth of an 10bit file?

[kidzrevil]

2 hours ago, SR said:

Would a higher bit rate 8bit file have the DR and color depth of an 10bit file?

8,10,12 or 14 bit rate doesn't change the dynamic range of a camera. The dynamic range is limited to what the sensor is capable of and the preset curve of the picture profile. Color depth of course is different BUT when shooting 4k for 1080 export the extra pixels contain enough color info to create a true 10bit 444 file. So in essence increasing bitrate to remove the occurence of macroblocking in shadows and at higher iso's is significantly more beneficial.

[DPStewart]

On 2/11/2016 at 1:27 PM, MountneerMan said:

Another really promising snipet from NX1_packages\standard-arm7\usr\include\wideo\drime5\hdmi\d5_hdmi_video_type.h

 

/**
 * @enum ColorSpace
 * @brief Color space of video stream.
 */
enum ColorSpace {
    HDMI_CS_RGB,/**< RGB color space */
    HDMI_CS_YCBCR444,/**< YCbCr 4:4:4 color space */
    HDMI_CS_YCBCR422/**< YCbCr 4:2:2 color space */
};

/**
 * @enum ColorDepth
 * @brief Color depth per pixel of video stream
 */
enum ColorDepth {
    HDMI_CD_36,/**< 36 bit color depth per pixel */
    HDMI_CD_30,/**< 30 bit color depth per pixel */
    HDMI_CD_24/**< 24 bit color depth per pixel */
};

 

I don't have an external recorder but doesn't the NX1 currently only offer 4:2:2 8 bit out?

This is pretty much exactly how it worked with the GH2 hacks.

Vitaliy got a hold of the firmware obviously when they released the first update. Then he created a GUI called "PTool" that loads in the firmware and has windows for you to enter in new values for just the relevant fields. 
Then the "PTool" GUI saves your changes in a file identical to the actual Panasonic firmware which then gets loaded into the camera in exactly the same way one would normally update the firmware.

You never "see" your new values displayed anywhere on the GH2. You just see the results and you can see the bit-rates associated with your new footage.

So this is considerably different from how Magic Lantern works, but everything we've learned so far points to the NX1 firmware functioning at least somewhat similarly to the Panasonic. 

So that's encouraging.

The easiest things to change will be the bit-rates (they've already provided for several ranges so we know it will work) and the removal of the 29-minute limit ... which is probably nothing more than a flag which can simply be removed like it was on the GH2.

[Marco Tecno]

To verify to bitrate thing one should compare newer fw with older ones, since they increased the max value.

[SR]

41 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

8,10,12 or 14 bit rate doesn't change the dynamic range of a camera. The dynamic range is limited to what the sensor is capable of and the preset curve of the picture profile. Color depth of course is different BUT when shooting 4k for 1080 export the extra pixels contain enough color info to create a true 10bit 444 file. So in essence increasing bitrate to remove the occurence of macroblocking in shadows and at higher iso's is significantly more beneficial.

Brilliant! Thanks for explanation. 

[DPStewart]

30 minutes ago, Marco Tecno said:

To verify to bitrate thing one should compare newer fw with older ones, since they increased the max value.

That's logic!

Yup. That's exactly the kinds of things to do. Look for some small yet specific differences that are easy to pin down the function of.

[BrorSvensson]

9 hours ago, Marco Tecno said:

undecided, if real raw, then it can only be 6.5k (or 4k if cropped, not downscaled). 4k downscaled involves processing, hence can't be raw...

if it cant be downscaled, how come the canon 5d mark iii can do raw full frame at 1080 with a 21mp sensor?

[sandro]

21 minutes ago, BrorSvensson said:

if it cant be downscaled, how come the canon 5d mark iii can do raw full frame at 1080 with a 21mp sensor?

could be because the processor has been developed to downscale in hardware?

[Marco Tecno]

4 hours ago, BrorSvensson said:

if it cant be downscaled, how come the canon 5d mark iii can do raw full frame at 1080 with a 21mp sensor?

Possibly cropped? Or full sensor readout and then downscaled? These are very different things.

[Syme]

5d mark III does 1920x1080 raw by reading out every third row and column. It has a native horizontal resolution of 5760, and 5760/3=1920. Most Canon DSLRs achieve that with line skipping, which tends to leave severe aliasing and moire. Judging by the lack of severe moire in the 5dm3, it probably uses some variation of pixel binning, which does an analog average of neighboring pixels before reading out. Look up pixel binning online to find out more. Using pixel binning loses a lot of resolution and tends to produce aliasing and moire, which is why a full-pixel readout is considered a desirable feature.

The NX1 probably uses pixel binning for the FHD modes, which is why the rolling shutter is reduced. In theory (I think) the sensor could do RAW with horizontal resolutions of 6480, 3240, 2160, or 1620 pixels. Unfortunately due to the nature of pixel binning, the 3240 mode would have less than half the resolution, the 2160 mode would have less than a third, and so on.

[Pavel Mašek]

3 hours ago, Marco Tecno said:

Possibly cropped? Or full sensor readout and then downscaled? These are very different things.

5D has option for lower resolution "RAW" (it is not exactly the RAW becuase of resolution, but bit depth is same as original RAW). That is someting that NX1 does not have. Moreover - NX1 would need also electronic shutter to achieve "video RAW in photo mode". It would be complicated even for Samsung engineers...

Let's focus on bitrate first... (...crop mode, lower sharpness or noise reduction)

[Syme]

48 minutes ago, Pavel Mašek said:

5D has option for lower resolution "RAW" (it is not exactly the RAW becuase of resolution, but bit depth is same as original RAW). That is someting that NX1 does not have. Moreover - NX1 would need also electronic shutter to achieve "video RAW in photo mode". It would be complicated even for Samsung engineers...

Let's focus on bitrate first... (...crop mode, lower sharpness or noise reduction)

Anything that gets read directly off the image sensor is "RAW." Magic lantern RAW comes from the image that is read out for live view, which is the same sensor mode that is used for video. Any camera with live view (essentially all modern cameras, including the NX1) could be hacked to do RAW video in theory, since they have to read out the sensor to memory at some point to get that preview image. It's just a matter of what resolutions (and bit depths) are available and how fast the camera can write that data to a card.

[Marco Tecno]

I see. But I would be more than happy with a 6.5k video with 12bit and 4:4:4 at 200mb/sec ;-)

Theoretically 6.5k is possible since the nx1 samples at that res and then downsizes the image. Not sure about the other settings. But bitrate could definitely be increased.

[undecided]

21 hours ago, Marco Tecno said:

undecided, if real raw, then it can only be 6.5k (or 4k if cropped, not downscaled). 4k downscaled involves processing, hence can't be raw...

I meant 4K cropped, that should require no processing.

13 hours ago, Marco Tecno said:

To verify to bitrate thing one should compare newer fw with older ones, since they increased the max value.

Theoretically possible but there may be tons of things changed between revisions. Did the really bump up the max bitrate in 1.4? I thought it's been the same since the initial release. Also, if the firmware is not signed, then the binary could theoretically be modified with a hex editor.