Petition for Samsung NX1 hack

[kinoseed]

5 hours ago, MountneerMan said:

Hahahaha I love the smell of trolls in the morning!

@Kinoseed, I have a suggestion for a script/hack. Would it be possible to calculate in camera the near and far focal distance and then display those two numbers at the bottom of the screen? These numbers would then automatically update as you change focus or aperture. This would be good for landscape work as well as using the camera on a gimbal.

This feature would obviously be toggled off and on in the menu.

Side note, thanks for your continued effort into making these cameras even more incredible. 

you mean give you the depth of field?  - it should be possible
good idea   - when I get some spare time, I'll look into it

1 hour ago, Sten said:

NX1 gives consumers a "counterfeit" 4K video - the exisitng (HEVC Main Profile, Level 5.0) video compression outputs only 80bmps 1080p, but for 4K (as advertised) the NX1 needs Main10 Profile, Level 5.1

Submit a Consumer Complaint to the FTC

 

NX1 and NX500 encoders are identical.
what gets fed into the encoders is slightly different (in layman's terms - nx500's encoder gets a crop of 4k, nx1 gets to downsize the frame before feeding if for the encoder as input)

We are way pass the bitrate "profile" which Samsung has licensed, so you may be onto something there
If you use modded versions allowing higher bitrates, you may be using it without a proper license
keep in mind with the mods, you can do 400mbps 4K HEVC if you timelapse

[MountneerMan]

7 minutes ago, kinoseed said:

you mean give you the depth of field?  - it should be possible
good idea   - when I get some spare time, I'll look into it

Excellent thank you. I looked at some of OttoK's documentation on GitHub regarding controlling focus. I am not good at this stuff at all but it looks like the camera has no idea what the focus distance is in the real world it only knows the focus position so I assume the script would need to figure out what lens is attached and reference a table for that specific lens at that specific focal length to determine what the focus distance is and use that to calculate the values.

This is just my interpretation I don’t know if I am right. In either case let me know if there is anything I can help you with that is not too complicated ;P

[Otto K]

Camera does not know actual distance, I've wanted to calibrate my lenses (it's straight forward procedure to record reported focus values at exact distances from the sensor at, let's say, 5 points and interpolate the others as it's not linear) but never had the time. We would also need to find a faster way to get focus distance value as the current method takes ~0.3s which is too slow. 

[tugela]

11 hours ago, kinoseed said:

fyi, both have the same processor.
NX500 was/is just crippled, however the crop is controlled by the PPUs which were not able to modify.
There are specific registers, which control how they process cropping/resampling, etc, however as soon as we touch those in memory, the thing crashes.

re the mbps - of course those are "the same", this is just the bitrate for encoding of the file, which already gets the copped/resampled image from the PPU.

Not according to Samsung, and I think they would know better than you. They are the "same" processor in the sense that an i5 is the "same" as an i7, but parts of it are disabled in hardware. They all have the same logic inside but parts are not functional in the more limited processors within a family generation. CPUand GPU manufacturers do this all the time.

The NX1 has a DRIMe-V processor, while the NX500 has the stripped down sibling, the DRIMe-Vs. They will both use the same command and interface structure but the computational power within the chip is different. As  programmer you would not be able to tell the difference by programming alone.

1 hour ago, Sten said:

NX1 gives consumers a "counterfeit" 4K video - the exisitng (HEVC Main Profile, Level 5.0) video compression outputs only 80bmps 1080p, but for 4K (as advertised) the NX1 needs Main10 Profile, Level 5.1

Submit a Consumer Complaint to the FTC

 

You do know that HEVC profiles are just minimum standards and that individual manufacturers can do whatever they want right? It is not written in stone.

[kinoseed]

3 hours ago, tugela said:

Not according to Samsung, and I think they would know better than you. They are the "same" processor in the sense that an i5 is the "same" as an i7, but parts of it are disabled in hardware. They all have the same logic inside but parts are not functional in the more limited processors within a family generation. CPUand GPU manufacturers do this all the time.

The NX1 has a DRIMe-V processor, while the NX500 has the stripped down sibling, the DRIMe-Vs. They will both use the same command and interface structure but the computational power within the chip is different. As  programmer you would not be able to tell the difference by programming alone.

You do know that HEVC profiles are just minimum standards and that individual manufacturers can do whatever they want right? It is not written in stone.

Which parts are disabled? They both have same PPUs, OPUs, etc.
NX1 has more memory, better WiFi, etc,  but the processors are the same.

better yet - consider the max possible bitrate for both cameras - both top at the same bitrates, which should give you clear indication that the computational power is identical.

of course they will have to say it's slower processor, to have better product separation considering the price difference, but even Samsung management would not have put more money for redesign to create a slower processor, at the same production price.

[kinoseed]

6 hours ago, MountneerMan said:

Excellent thank you. I looked at some of OttoK's documentation on GitHub regarding controlling focus. I am not good at this stuff at all but it looks like the camera has no idea what the focus distance is in the real world it only knows the focus position so I assume the script would need to figure out what lens is attached and reference a table for that specific lens at that specific focal length to determine what the focus distance is and use that to calculate the values.

This is just my interpretation I don’t know if I am right. In either case let me know if there is anything I can help you with that is not too complicated ;P

Yes.. you are right. =/
I thought that info would be available, but I've never looked too much into the lens control as I use manual lenses almost all the time.

Unless someone smarter than I, figures out how to get the focus position translated to distance, there isn't much that can be done:
lensproperty.focus_position     -     with relation the to mm lens (zoom level)
 

[berndimax]

10 hours ago, Sten said:

NX1 gives consumers a "counterfeit" 4K video - the exisitng (HEVC Main Profile, Level 5.0) video compression outputs only 80bmps 1080p, but for 4K (as advertised) the NX1 needs Main10 Profile, Level 5.1

Submit a Consumer Complaint to the FTC

 

Where did You get that from?

From MediaInfo on NX1 clip: 3840x2160 HEVC (Main @ Level 5.1)!

[tugela]

7 hours ago, kinoseed said:

Which parts are disabled? They both have same PPUs, OPUs, etc.
NX1 has more memory, better WiFi, etc,  but the processors are the same.

better yet - consider the max possible bitrate for both cameras - both top at the same bitrates, which should give you clear indication that the computational power is identical.

of course they will have to say it's slower processor, to have better product separation considering the price difference, but even Samsung management would not have put more money for redesign to create a slower processor, at the same production price.

It is disabled on the CPU die. You can't see it. The design of the processors is exactly the same, but not everything on the chips is working. All of the bits are there, they are just not all available to the CPU during operation. All processor families are like this. All of the components are there on the chip, but in some of them various parts are disabled. For example, the CPU in my laptop is a dual core i7. It is exactly the same design as a desktop i7, but two of the cores are disabled on the chip itself so that it stays within the laptop's thermal envelope during normal operation. If all 4 cores were operating it would fry in the compact form factor of the laptop if you ran a multi-thread app. You can get 4 core versions, but those have their clock speeds fixed at lower specs. The two core processor handles single thread apps very well because it runs at a high clock rate, but multi thread apps struggle.

The reason for doing that is to force constraints on the CPU so that it will fit within a particular thermal envelope. Otherwise the processor would just heat up and fail. The NX500 has a much tighter thermal envelope than the NX1, so they can't have the processor operating at the same rate. To ensure that it does not, some parts of the processor in the Vs are disabled on chip. That is why Samsung used the V in the NX1 and the Vs in the NX500. Same chip die, but not everything is working in the junior version.

As I said before, all the major CPU/GPU manufacturers do this. Within a particular generation of chip, they all have the same design, but various things on the chip are locked out so that the individual members of the family can fit different machine specs for different applications.

Computation is not just encoding. The same hardware encoder is used in both chips, so obviously the actual encoding would happen at the same rate. The limitation is in other parts of processing, such as debeyering, downsizing, noise reduction, etc. The more limited capabilities of the Vs means that it can't handle as much data as the V, and that is why you have the crop.

 

[Francesco Tasselli]

My friends, I’m thinking on launching in the forum a new topic entitled “Where is Andrew Reid?”..

I’m a bit joking but I’m getting worried he doesn’t write anything.. I hope he is fully involved with some filmmaking project..

[kinoseed]

2 hours ago, tugela said:

It is disabled on the CPU die. You can't see it. The design of the processors is exactly the same, but not everything on the chips is working. All of the bits are there, they are just not all available to the CPU during operation. All processor families are like this. All of the components are there on the chip, but in some of them various parts are disabled. For example, the CPU in my laptop is a dual core i7. It is exactly the same design as a desktop i7, but two of the cores are disabled on the chip itself so that it stays within the laptop's thermal envelope during normal operation. If all 4 cores were operating it would fry in the compact form factor of the laptop if you ran a multi-thread app. You can get 4 core versions, but those have their clock speeds fixed at lower specs. The two core processor handles single thread apps very well because it runs at a high clock rate, but multi thread apps struggle.

The reason for doing that is to force constraints on the CPU so that it will fit within a particular thermal envelope. Otherwise the processor would just heat up and fail. The NX500 has a much tighter thermal envelope than the NX1, so they can't have the processor operating at the same rate. To ensure that it does not, some parts of the processor in the Vs are disabled on chip. That is why Samsung used the V in the NX1 and the Vs in the NX500. Same chip die, but not everything is working in the junior version.

As I said before, all the major CPU/GPU manufacturers do this. Within a particular generation of chip, they all have the same design, but various things on the chip are locked out so that the individual members of the family can fit different machine specs for different applications.

Computation is not just encoding. The same hardware encoder is used in both chips, so obviously the actual encoding would happen at the same rate. The limitation is in other parts of processing, such as debeyering, downsizing, noise reduction, etc. The more limited capabilities of the Vs means that it can't handle as much data as the V, and that is why you have the crop.

 

Thank you for the explanation, however, I do not think it applies here.
There is no indication for difference in performance. NX1 and NX500 can handle up to the same amount of increased bitrate for the encoder. When I said same PPUs/OPUs etc (some of which handle image-resizing) - I am under the impression those are programmable hardware units. In particular resizing/re-sampling is set by a few registers which set the parameters for (I think it was PPU1 that handled resizing?), and the only block that is preventing NX500 of having non-crop 4K is control of those registers (which was not successful for now), but we can dump them quite easily.
So... if there were disabled processing cores, we would have noticed right away

[Marco Tecno]

I'm quite sure kinoseed is right on this.

[MountneerMan]

14 hours ago, kinoseed said:

Yes.. you are right. =/
I thought that info would be available, but I've never looked too much into the lens control as I use manual lenses almost all the time.

Unless someone smarter than I, figures out how to get the focus position translated to distance, there isn't much that can be done:
lensproperty.focus_position     -     with relation the to mm lens (zoom level)
 

Well i think we would need to "profile" each lens using a measuring tape and perhaps a telnet script that moves to the first focus position takes a photos moves to the the next position takes another photo then so on then pull all those photos into the computer and zoom and see the exact focus distance at each position then use that to build a look up table.

[/Chop N Shoot Films/]

when using this camera I typically use the grid lines for 2.35:1 aspect ratio crop. Problem is the lines are really thin and dont stand out as much as I'd like.  Is it possible make the grid lines actually do the full black bar overlay while recording and keep the overlay on during playback? 

[grey]

This is from Aputure...but is for micro 4/3...but...if we change the rear flange, of course the distance between the lens and the sensor must be adjusted, but we will control the aperture and the focus...probably or it's complete a stupid thing?(and it's a focal reducer too)

[Marco Tecno]

33 minutes ago, grey said:

This is from Aputure...but is for micro 4/3...but...if we change the rear flange, of course the distance between the lens and the sensor must be adjusted, but we will control the aperture and the focus...probably or it's complete a stupid thing?(and it's a focal reducer too)

For me such a tool would be of no interest. I'd like real af for stills shooting with tele lenses.

[kinoseed]

4 hours ago, /Chop N Shoot Films/ said:

when using this camera I typically use the grid lines for 2.35:1 aspect ratio crop. Problem is the lines are really thin and dont stand out as much as I'd like.  Is it possible make the grid lines actually do the full black bar overlay while recording and keep the overlay on during playback? 

that should be possible, but the max bitrate will take a hit

[kinoseed]

5 hours ago, /Chop N Shoot Films/ said:

when using this camera I typically use the grid lines for 2.35:1 aspect ratio crop. Problem is the lines are really thin and dont stand out as much as I'd like.  Is it possible make the grid lines actually do the full black bar overlay while recording and keep the overlay on during playback? 

here you go:

v2.79
added: Custom overlay
- start from ( settings> overlay ). It loads your own custom overlay from the root directory of the sdcard ( sdcard/overlay.png ). Once activated the touchscreen will not work, and histogram will be "frozen" until you deactivate it ( reminder: Ev+Ev/Ok to start the menu for nx500/nx1)

note that the preview of the playback will not work, however press "ok" for the video playback to start, and the recorded video with the overlay on top will show.

you can make any overlay you like, as 720x480 transparent PNG  (replace the overlay.png with it)

[ttbek]

On 10/20/2016 at 0:17 AM, tugela said:

Not according to Samsung, and I think they would know better than you. They are the "same" processor in the sense that an i5 is the "same" as an i7, but parts of it are disabled in hardware. They all have the same logic inside but parts are not functional in the more limited processors within a family generation. CPUand GPU manufacturers do this all the time.

The NX1 has a DRIMe-V processor, while the NX500 has the stripped down sibling, the DRIMe-Vs. They will both use the same command and interface structure but the computational power within the chip is different. As  programmer you would not be able to tell the difference by programming alone.

Actually, according to Samsung they were the same, then they flipflopped at the last moment just before release.  I'm skeptical that they would have had time to disable all those cores at that point, they were probably shipped to retailers already.  So either Samsung was right or Samsung is right :P

As a programmer you will usually query the OS about these things and it will report back on the processor as it sees it.  On Linux (Tizen in this case) everything is a file per se and we can literally check this stuff out in /proc  If it is disabled, then it won't be showing up. 

On 10/21/2016 at 0:38 PM, tugela said:

Computation is not just encoding. The same hardware encoder is used in both chips, so obviously the actual encoding would happen at the same rate. The limitation is in other parts of processing, such as debeyering, downsizing, noise reduction, etc. The more limited capabilities of the Vs means that it can't handle as much data as the V, and that is why you have the crop.

True if they have indeed limited the capabilities of the Vs, but I'm not yet convinced that they have.  Maybe Samsung reps were initially confused because the processors were coming off the same line but binning for which to have more cores and which less, but for now I suspect they are the same. 

[ttbek]

On 10/19/2016 at 0:10 AM, lucabutera said:

Now I can control the iris on Canon lens, this is a short test with canon 50mm F8.

The lens with NXL is very sharpness, non used hack, no Dr profile.

Videomakers stay tuned, big news coming soon, it is soon to send her into retirement.

Hey Luca, I have some requests for this since your pace is much faster than mine.  When you put out the adapter, can it have external connection points for monitoring the communication?  Can it have a standard port over which the firmware can be updated (Canon does update EF protocol sometimes).  And can you open source the firmware?  Even if it is still paid firmware it would be good if users can make their own changes to keep it working with newer EF lenses if Canon makes minor changes that make it stop working (as they have stung some of the 3rd party lensmakers with in the past).  I don't know what sort of chip your are using, hopefully it is something not too tough to program for ^_^.  Your timing is too good, you will retire the NX-L before I got around to ordering mine :P  I want to support this though so I will still order, and if it turns out to be working well enough for BIF with the long primes then I'm going to owe you more T.T :P  I will try ordering NX-L today, please include my phone number in the address area (otherwise the post here will probably ship it back to you).  Orange and red shirts, hurrah! 

[ClaudioS]

On 2 ottobre 2016 at 5:47 PM, SMGJohn said:

I think that has more to do with with the limit of the Atomos Ninja 2, I had a look in the manual of it and found that it does not support anything above 30fps in progressive scan.

Only the older Samsung cameras can do 1080 interlaced, so that is your problem you are trying to receive an interlaced signal but the camera has none, there is no interlacing settings in the NX1 nor the NX500, you would have to buy the vintage dinosaur called the Canon 5DM4 to get interlaced video analogue style, jokes aside, the recorder does not support 60p only 60i and the NX500 only shoots 60p and no 60i, I hope that helps

EDIT:
It is easier to just shoot 1080p60 with the hack in-camera instead of slapping on the external recorders, the only point I see is if he needs an extra monitor or needs multiple audio sources as the Ninja 2 apparently can do 4 audio tracks.

I have asked for help in order to change the HDMI output settings of the NX500 that are locked in HD at 60 fps and therefore not compatible with my ninja2. Also if I want to shoot in 4K and use an external monitor or recorder that supports it the NX500 is set to 1080 making it impossible to shoot in 4K.