GoPro stock plummets 90% in less than a 1.5 years

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

The problem with GoPro is that other companys make similar cameras for 1/3, or less, money. They were always priced very high, in my opinion, and then they had that drone fiasco, that was the last drop certainly.

Yeah I have tonnes of Yi action cameras instead. I should never have purchased my GoPro Hero 3 Black

1 hour ago, kye said:

I'm surprised no-one has posted this video yet...

EmpowerAll.com and FunBug are all gone and non-used domains now!

[photographer-at-large]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-12/gopro-surges-on-report-that-xiaomi-has-considered-an-offer

[IronFilm]

Wait a year until they're worth half that then buy them!

[Damphousse]

Gopro stock jumped over 9% Friday.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/gopro-stock-jumps-after-earnings-suggest-strong-start-for-cheaper-camera-2018-05-03

Sales seem to be good across the board.

Honestly the quality of the product has improved.  For the first time I am considering getting a Gopro.  Although the camera still has the problem of limited use for most people.  The number of people in America heavily involved with action activities is limited.  But with the increased quality of the cameras and more affordable high quality small gimbals available I think these cameras could me good for shooting family events.  They are simple, small, rugged, and splash proof.

[webrunner5]

My Hero Session 5 is just crazy good for how cheap they are. They are a no brainer for the money.

[Kisaha]

I would rather get the Xiaomi 4K+ for a portion of the money, and save the rest for other equipment. Yes, the 6 is the best GoPro ever, but other can make 95% of that, or better in some areas, for a percentage of the total cost. DJI can make one tomorrow, and beat GoPro easily. 

Some people believe that a mobile phone is good enough for most photo/video catching, some say they are good to shot a film (some in this forum!), I disagree of course, but if people consider a phone is comparable with a normal camera with a huge sensor, you get the point where the action cams stand right now. Just get a Smooth Q stabilizer for your phone, and pass it around people in lock mode, a lot cheaper, and arguably, similar quality.

The magic word is 1", when everything becomes 1", then they would be comparable to a real camera and I will care more about them.

People doing action activities are at its top ever, and world wide, a lot more than the 80's, 90's and the 00's were the hip thing to do was to do drugs and be wasted! I am joking, but action lifestyle and a healthy way of life became a thing the last decade, and right now, even McDonald's in UK offering "less that 400 calories" options in their menu, and organic foods are a thing (a very expensive one), while there are new extreme activities been invented, almost every month. In some countries people are given money to buy bikes to go to their jobs, and every summer there is a new thing I see people do on the beach that it doesn't even have a name!

My LG has a 14mm ultra wide lens, and a 29mm one, OIS and EIS, 1.8f, 4K recording and 1080/120 and full M, by the way. Oh, and it has passed 18 military standards, so it is 810G military standard accredited — including temperature and environmental extremes, pressure, vibration, and shock, as well as salt, sand, dust, and water immersion. (http://www.lg.com/us/mobile-phones/g6/quality).

[TwoScoops]

1 minute ago, Kisaha said:

 

People doing action activities are at its top ever, and world wide, a lot more than the 80's, 90's and the 00's were the hip thing to do was to do drugs and be wasted! 

 

The new drug is the attention they get from posting the 'activities' online.  

[Kisaha]

17 minutes ago, TwoScoops said:

 

The new drug is the attention they get from posting the 'activities' online.  

Yes! It has to be online, or else it never happened!

So it is a great time in history for little cameras, easy to carry and post online immediately! Mobile phones have the advantage of being in one's pocket (or bag, or purse, or jacket) already, but action cams have their market, for sure,.

A lot of my friends own an Olympus TG camera, the tracker is interesting, maybe the next one will be the one (as of now they are a bit behind top action cams like GoPro 6 and Xiaomi 4K+ in video specs and image quality, but they are cheaper as well). http://www.getolympus.com/us/en/tough

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

The magic word is 1", when everything becomes 1", then they would be comparable to a real camera and I will care more about them.

Wish there is a camera with a 1" sensor but a prime lens rather than the zoom lens of a RX100/RX10/etc

Something like a fusion between a RX0, RX1, XF100, and a RX100. 

A compact camera with a 1" sensor and a prime lens, that can easily slip into even a tight jean's pocket. 

[Kisaha]

37 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Wish there is a camera with a 1" sensor but a prime lens rather than the zoom lens of a RX100/RX10/etc

Something like a fusion between a RX0, RX1, XF100, and a RX100. 

A compact camera with a 1" sensor and a prime lens, that can easily slip into even a tight jean's pocket. 

Panasonic CM1 has 1", 28mm lens, 2.8f (and 4K I think!). Thickness  is 15mm for the phone, and 20mm where the camera is, and 24mm with the camera on.

The mobile phone's sale war, will bring us more of those, soon. Physics can not be beaten (yet) and for better performance all those companies will need a bigger sensor soon.

[Damphousse]

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I would rather get the Xiaomi 4K+ for a portion of the money, and save the rest for other equipment. Yes, the 6 is the best GoPro ever, but other can make 95% of that, or better in some areas, for a percentage of the total cost. DJI can make one tomorrow, and beat GoPro easily.

It is a personal choice.  The GoPro 6 has better colors right out of the camera, better stabilization, and better low light performance.  Yi 4k certainly is not "95%" of that.  It is a pretty substantial difference.  The Yi has more detail in good light and a better codec.  But with amateurs you are more likely to get a good shot right out of the camera with a GoPro handheld with no grading.  That is what finally convinced me.  I think Gopro is finally something I could see myself owning.

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Some people believe that a mobile phone is good enough for most photo/video catching, some say they are good to shot a film (some in this forum!), I disagree of course, but if people consider a phone is comparable with a normal camera with a huge sensor, you get the point where the action cams stand right now. Just get a Smooth Q stabilizer for your phone, and pass it around people in lock mode, a lot cheaper, and arguably, similar quality.

I'm not jumping into the ocean with my phone on a stabilizer.  Neither am I going to zip down a backwoods trail on my bike with my phone on a stabilizer.  I am not going to do ski jumps with my phone on a stabilizer.  I am not going to pass my phone on a stabilizer around to a bunch of kids or drunk adults.

7 hours ago, Kisaha said:

People doing action activities are at its top ever, and world wide, a lot more than the 80's, 90's and the 00's were the hip thing to do was to do drugs and be wasted! I am joking, but action lifestyle and a healthy way of life became a thing the last decade, and right now, even McDonald's in UK offering "less that 400 calories" options in their menu, and organic foods are a thing (a very expensive one), while there are new extreme activities been invented, almost every month.

Which is why there is record setting obesity all over the planet.  The majority of the people in America are overweight or obese because they love "action activities" so much?

I started this thread to interject a bit of data driven reality.  I get people are excited about this camera or that camera but let's be realistic.  The market for any of this stuff is only so big.

[Kisaha]

59 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

It is a personal choice.  The GoPro 6 has better colors right out of the camera, better stabilization, and better low light performance.  Yi 4k certainly is not "95%" of that.  It is a pretty substantial difference.  The Yi has more detail in good light and a better codec.  But with amateurs you are more likely to get a good shot right out of the camera with a GoPro handheld with no grading.  That is what finally convinced me.  I think Gopro is finally something I could see myself owning.

I'm not jumping into the ocean with my phone on a stabilizer.  Neither am I going to zip down a backwoods trail on my bike with my phone on a stabilizer.  I am not going to do ski jumps with my phone on a stabilizer.  I am not going to pass my phone on a stabilizer around to a bunch of kids or drunk adults.

Which is why there is record setting obesity all over the planet.  The majority of the people in America are overweight or obese because they love "action activities" so much?

I started this thread to interject a bit of data driven reality.  I get people are excited about this camera or that camera but let's be realistic.  The market for any of this stuff is only so big.

I work occasionally for a car TV show (for a lot of years), so we use GoPro cameras all the time. We are still using the 5 though, as the production company doesn't find the difference substantial to invest on 4 new GoPro cameras. I can only compare with the 5.

The Yi cost 240euros here, GoPro5 is 80-100euros more, the 6 is around 420euros, a substantial difference for sure. Image quality? I dare to say the 4K+ is a bit sharper with better color reproduction. GoPro codec tops to 60Mbpes, if I remember right, and Yi is double that. The 5 is 4K/30, the Yi 4K/60. I am not sure about ISO performance, but I consider this to be silly, as everything out of a GoPro, and similar action cameras, are terrible in low light situations.

I never said that action cameras are a terrible idea, just that they have terrible quality.

I disagree completely with your social comment, obviously you are referring to habits and a social reality created by the decades that I already mentioned. The world stayed on a false state of abundance for many decades (and that started just after World War 2). After the last financial crisis, and for other reasons (like the obesity that you already mentioned, and other health issues, plus the collapse of the ecology of the planet because of overpopulation/over-materialism/over-polution) people started having different life styles and active lifestyles, ecology, and better quality of food, are gaining traction in western societies. Do you remember buying any organic food in the 80's, or 90's? How many of your friends were doing summer/winter extreme sports in the 90's? Were you ever taking your bike to work? How many of your people around you were smoking 10-20 years ago?

The market of such cameras is quite big, that is why Olympus, Sony, Xiaomi, Ricoh, Kodak, DJI, GoPro, Nikon, even Leica (X-U) has one, and a few myriad smaller camera makers and brands are making waterproof/action cameras. Also, you can buy a cheap plastic housing, or a specialized better one and make whatever camera waterproof.

I live on a 10.000.000 country with 13.700Khm of costline, China has 14.500, to put that on perspective, and also a lot of mountains and ski resorts. Literally, everyone under 40 years older, have used an action cam, and most of those own one, those are even ok with their older GoPros, or they are buying a cheap Chinese alternative, with less than 100euros.

Edit: My comment about the mobile phones, was that the image quality and specs of modern mobile phones, even mid-tier ones, are similar with most action cams, it is a device most already own, a lot of models are already waterproof (so, splash proof really, I wouldn't dive with my mobile phone), so they can be used for a lot of the light things that people were using GoPros some years ago. 

[JurijTurnsek]

19 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Panasonic CM1 has 1", 28mm lens, 2.8f (and 4K I think!). Thickness  is 15mm for the phone, and 20mm where the camera is, and 24mm with the camera on.

The mobile phone's sale war, will bring us more of those, soon. Physics can not be beaten (yet) and for better performance all those companies will need a bigger sensor soon.

Yeah, I really hoped Sony would come up with an RX smartphone, but no luck. Hopefully, the dual-camera module in the announced XZ2 Premium can live up to the announced capabilities (Sony's smartphones have a bad track-record): https://www.gsmarena.com/sony_xperia_xz2_premium-9166.php

I believe that announcement was the last nail in the 1" sensor smartphone coffin from Sony.

[kye]

On 06/05/2018 at 11:21 AM, Damphousse said:

Honestly the quality of the product has improved.  For the first time I am considering getting a Gopro.  Although the camera still has the problem of limited use for most people.  The number of people in America heavily involved with action activities is limited.  But with the increased quality of the cameras and more affordable high quality small gimbals available I think these cameras could me good for shooting family events.  They are simple, small, rugged, and splash proof.

As someone with a pretty average life (job, family, house, car, etc) who shoots with my GoPro a lot I actually disagree about them being good for family events.

They're wide angle, which means that you have to either zoom in, which is pretty difficult to hold them remotely still (unless you rig them up, in which case just use a larger camera with IS) or film everything close up, which is kind of strange and the lens distortions are EXTREMELY UNFLATTERING to average people (who don't have the figures of models or people used to seeing themselves on TV).

I actually agree with @Kisaha that the best cameras for recording normal life is the smartphone, as it has many of the advantages but also lots less disadvantages.

Also, I think that action cameras are cameras that require huge amounts of editing to get good end results from.  You film things close up, film things that are moving quickly (either in slow-mo or real-time), put them over fast music and do a fast edit with lots of cuts.  That's the GoPro aesthetic.  I think this video proves that:

In researching a replacement for my GoPro I was reading forums about potential other cameras, and one person said their camera recorded nice quality at first but later on in the file the quality reduced.  One of the replies was to only shoot short clips because "long clips are really boring" - obviously that person assumed the clips wouldn't be edited at all!

15 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I am not going to pass my phone on a stabilizer around to a bunch of kids or drunk adults.

Last month I shot a film at a club for a friends birthday (I posted it in the GoPro replacement thread) and I shot it with my GoPro precisely because I didn't want to pass my phone to drunken adults in a club.  Plus I wouldn't have gotten my DJI Osmo Mobile 2 past security - they took a few long looks at my Bobber handle that I had on it.

14 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Edit: My comment about the mobile phones, was that the image quality and specs of modern mobile phones, even mid-tier ones, are similar with most action cams, it is a device most already own, a lot of models are already waterproof (so, splash proof really, I wouldn't dive with my mobile phone), so they can be used for a lot of the light things that people were using GoPros some years ago. 

Completely agree.

I did actually go swimming with my iPhone 8 deliberately at the beach when I first got it as I was wondering if I could replace my GoPro with it.  I haven't edited the footage yet, but I can tell you the 1080p240 at 400% quality from MoviePro app looks absolutely spectacular in full-afternoon-sun, the screen only worked sometimes, and it took a few hours to dry out afterwards before it would charge properly again.  I actually did what you're not meant to do and I plugged it in to charge, so it should have killed something but I was lucky.

With your phone you don't have anything else to carry, you get a nice large screen (huge by camera standards), you can edit in-camera, and you can upload direct from the device.  Action cameras require SD card adapters a full computer or hours of file transfer time, and all the stuffing around that keeps an army of post-production staff employed around the world.

I have a big camera with zoom lens which is good for everything except being discrete (or wider than 24mm), my phone which is very discreet but no zoom, and my GoPro which is waterproof and very wide.  In this sense it's a specialist camera used for very particular things.

[Kisaha]

 

This is 84.90euros in my country. This is seriously an action camera for the masses. Comes with a box full of accessories inside. Is it as good as a GoPro6, or even 5? Of course not, but most people will be happy to spend a lot less than 100euros (this can be an impulsive buy for a lot of us, even my I consider 84.90euros for a nice little gadget a very fair price), and it comes with 2 years European warranty (German company it seems).

@kyeWaterproof mobile phones can, but it is not advisable to swim with. Even action cams without housings have to be cleaned, and properly dry out, but you can shoot somethings on the beach (not inside the sea, salt is killing everything, even human hearts!), near a pool, or on a river (canoe-cayak!). I would call them splashproof.

[Damphousse]

23 hours ago, Kisaha said:

I disagree completely with your social comment, obviously you are referring to habits and a social reality created by the decades that I already mentioned. The world stayed on a false state of abundance for many decades (and that started just after World War 2). After the last financial crisis, and for other reasons (like the obesity that you already mentioned, and other health issues, plus the collapse of the ecology of the planet because of overpopulation/over-materialism/over-polution) people started having different life styles and active lifestyles, ecology, and better quality of food, are gaining traction in western societies.

Financial crisis was a decade ago... people are setting new records for obesity in 2018.  I wish what you are saying was true but sadly every report out of the public health community says otherwise.

23 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Do you remember buying any organic food in the 80's, or 90's? How many of your friends were doing summer/winter extreme sports in the 90's?

"Organic" is the "low fat" of the 2018.  It is marketing that gives people the warm fuzzies while they sit on their butts eating and packing on the pounds.

23 hours ago, Kisaha said:

The market of such cameras is quite big, that is why Olympus, Sony, Xiaomi, Ricoh, Kodak, DJI, GoPro, Nikon, even Leica (X-U) has one, and a few myriad smaller camera makers and brands are making waterproof/action cameras.

Gopro is the number one selling camera maker... and they are losing money and are a penny stock.

8 hours ago, kye said:

As someone with a pretty average life (job, family, house, car, etc) who shoots with my GoPro a lot I actually disagree about them being good for family events.

@KisahaThey're wide angle, which means that you have to either zoom in, which is pretty difficult to hold them remotely still (unless you rig them up, in which case just use a larger camera with IS) or film everything close up, which is kind of strange and the lens distortions are EXTREMELY UNFLATTERING to average people (who don't have the figures of models or people used to seeing themselves on TV).

The PeauPro87 mod address all those concerns.

[Mokara]

1 hour ago, Damphousse said:

 

Gopro is the number one selling camera maker... and they are losing money and are a penny stock.

 

The financial state of a company does not necessarily reflect the economics of the market they are in. GoPro may simply be spending too much and be too inefficient at manufacturing. That does not mean that some other company with more experience at making cameras and having other products with which to leverage R&D would not be able to be profitable selling these sorts of cameras.

If GoPro have a dominant position in the market, and can't make money, it is likely due to management more than anything else.

[kye]

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

The PeauPro87 mod address all those concerns.

That's an interesting point.  Many of the reasons it's not suitable for me (as a specialist camera) make it more suitable for the average consumer.

Phones still have huge screens and are already in your pocket, but the 19mm lens does help somewhat.

[Damphousse]

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

The financial state of a company does not necessarily reflect the economics of the market they are in. GoPro may simply be spending too much and be too inefficient at manufacturing. That does not mean that some other company with more experience at making cameras and having other products with which to leverage R&D would not be able to be profitable selling these sorts of cameras.

If GoPro have a dominant position in the market, and can't make money, it is likely due to management more than anything else.

Really?  Or maybe they are a dominant company in a limited low margin sector.  Even in really crappy industries there are dominant players.  Being dominant doesn't mean automatic profit.

 

[Kisaha]

The Peau costs 600$, even more expensive than the already expensive Hero6.

GoPro just failed, capitalism is all about move, and finding new markets. GoPro sold a camera to most people would buy a camera, and that was it. How many GoPro cameras would one change in his life? @kye still uses the Hero3. A lot of my friends also. The TV show I am working are staying with the Hero5 at the moment, because they spend a couple of thousands euros for GoPro cameras when they were new and we do not expect vast differences when mounting on cars.

Yi, and other Chinese manufacturers, have a vast Asian market of half the global population to sell, and they sell action cameras for 49.9$, which a teen in Delhi can buy, up to 180$ (or less, in the Chinese market) for a top action camera like the 4K+. The parent company, Xiaomi, also makes vacuum cleaners, bags, and recently shoes, they make everything, so they do not have just one market and one single pony.

They are literally millions of people buying action cameras every year, they just do not care about GoPro anymore.