A Tale of Two T2.0 Zooms (for A6300)

[Brian Caldwell]

The Fuji Premier 14.5-45mm T2.0 ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/840519-REG/Fujinon_HK3_1X14_5_F_HK3_1X14_5F_14_5_45mm_T2_0_ZOOM.html ) is pretty well known in the professional cine world.  But, if you've ever hefted one in person you know its not only priced like a small house (~$100k), its nearly the same size and weight as well!  So, naturally, I'm curious to know how it might perform on the upcoming A6300 in comparison to something much cheaper.  Like the Tamron 24-70mm/2.8 with a Speed Booster, which gives you a 17-50mm/2.0.  Obviously, the latter is practically $free compared to the former, and you do give up the 14.5mm - 17mm range along with perhaps 1/4-1/3 stop difference in aperture due to f/# vs T/#.  But, you gain autofocus, image stabilization, a little extra reach at the long end, and an unbelievably huge reduction in size/weight/cost.  I would not be surprised in image quality is nearly equal.

[Policar]

The Fuji Premier needs to reach a 52mm flange distance.

It will exciting when this isn't a factor. I still wish there were a C300 speed booster!

[Brian Caldwell]

3 hours ago, Policar said:

The Fuji Premier needs to reach a 52mm flange distance.

It will exciting when this isn't a factor. I still wish there were a C300 speed booster!

What really matters is the BFL, not the flange distance.  In this case, as in most cine zooms, I think the Fuji 14.5-45/2.0 will fit onto a PL-to-EF adapter, so you can think of it as an EF lens.  So, in this sense its equivalent to 24-70mm lenses from Canon, Tamron, or Sigma with an EF mount.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

The Fuji Cine zoom will most definitely produce better technical IQ and mechanical properties, but with your Speedbooster invention the asked cost is no longer viable now and especially for future products. My Nikon 24-120mm F4 IS + SB gives me a s35 17-90mm F/2.8 IS zoom lens which is not available at any reasonable price bracket south of 50K+ s35 cine zooms.

[jcs]

Is an EF to EF SB possible? Would be cool to have a 'full-frame' C300 II.

[andy lee]

Brian , Im using your Metabones XL speedbooster in a similar situation with a Nikon 28-70mm f2.8 (The Bourne Lens) to give me a f2 zoom . I'm DOP on a British Feature film Pandora and we are using this combination as it produces stunning images with your Metabones XL . I'm going to send you a PM about the Movie and Metabones . we are committed to shooting the whole movie with Metabones as it makes all the zooms f2 !! we are using the Nikon 80-200mm f2.8 and the 20-35mm f2.8 all with the XL for the exact reasons you have pointed out in you post , size weight £££ and image quality - which is amazing !!

[cantsin]

1 hour ago, jcs said:

Is an EF to EF SB possible? Would be cool to have a 'full-frame' C300 II.

No. You can only speedboost/focal reduce lenses with a longer flange distance to a mount with a shorter flange distance - i.e., typically, DSLR lenses to a mirrorless mount. Otherwise, there's simply no physical room for the Speed Booster glass.

[Brian Caldwell]

3 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

The Fuji Cine zoom will most definitely produce better technical IQ and mechanical properties, but with your Speedbooster invention the asked cost is no longer viable now and especially for future products. My Nikon 24-120mm F4 IS + SB gives me a s35 17-90mm F/2.8 IS zoom lens which is not available at any reasonable price bracket south of 50K+ s35 cine zooms.

I'm not entirely sure about the IQ - its something I would want to test.  Its worth noting that inexpensive stills glass is often better than very expensive cine glass.  For example, I once did a projection bench comparison of an older generation Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8 zoom against a $20k Zeiss 80-200 T2.9 CZ.2, and the Nikon was clearly superior, especially in the corners.  I suspect there is a good reason why you *never* see MTF charts of cine glass!

1 hour ago, jcs said:

Is an EF to EF SB possible? Would be cool to have a 'full-frame' C300 II.

I haven't found a way to do it in a compact form factor while maintaining even remotely decent image quality.  There is an infamous Kodak patent that addresses this problem, but the example given in the patent is so incredibly poor that its just not enabling at all.  You could do it with a relay type system, which I would call a Keplerian style, or real image focal reducer.  However, you then wind up with a huge ungainly and under-performing setup just like the old Nikon E3.

25 minutes ago, andy lee said:

Brian , Im using your Metabones XL speedbooster in a similar situation with a Nikon 28-70mm f2.8 (The Bourne Lens) to give me a f2 zoom . I'm DOP on a British Freature film Pandora and we are using this combination as it produces stunning images with you Metabones XL . Im going to send you a PM about the Movie and Metabones .we are committed to shooting the whole moive with Metabones as it makes all the zooms f2 !! we are using the Nikon 80-200mm f2.8 and the 20-35mm f2.8 all with the XL the the exact reasons you have pointed out in you post , size weight £££ and image quality - which is amazing !!

Its incredibly nice to learn about this (!!), and I'd like to know as much as possible about your work.  BTW, a Speed Booster XL will take an f/2.8 zoom down to f/1.8, which is probably around T/2.0 for most zooms.

[andy lee]

your XL speedbooster is an amazing essential piece of kit as it makes the 4k Panasonic cameras into very serious film making tools when paired with Nikon 2.8 Zooms ,

As I mentioned Im DOP on a British Feature film Pandora , we will be shooting this film with PANASONIC G7 4K cameras and Metabones XL Speedboosters.

We have done extensive tesing of the G7 camera in 4k 24p mode with Metabones XL Speedbooster at Media City in Salford UK with my post production house - We Create - (Rod Edney and Paul Whiting) and we have found the G7 / Metabones XL Speedbooster combination to be better in low light and less noise in the blacks than the RED 4K files we compared it against and found it also almost indistinguishable from Arri Alexa files we compared it against.

The guys at Media City where very impressed with the Metabones XL Speedbooster.  All in all we are committed to making the whole movie with Metabones XL Speedboosters on all 4 camera Rigs.

 

Brian I have just PM's you some info - thanks Andy

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, andy lee said:

your XL speedbooster is an amazing essential piece of kit as it makes the 4k Panasonic cameras into very serious film making tools when paired with Nikon 2.8 Zooms ,

As I mentioned Im DOP on a British Feature film Pandora , we will be shooting this film with PANASONIC G7 4K cameras and Metabones XL Speedboosters.

We have done extensive tesing of the G7 camera in 4k 24p mode with Metabones XL Speedbooster at Media City in Salford UK with my post production house - We Create - (Rod Edney and Paul Whiting) and we have found the G7 / Metabones XL Speedbooster combination to be better in low light and less noise in the blacks than the RED 4K files we compared it against and found it also almost indistinguishable from Arri Alexa files we compared it against.

The guys at Media City where very impressed with the Metabones XL Speedbooster.  All in all we are committed to making the whole movie with Metabones XL Speedboosters on all 4 camera Rigs.

Andy, this is a little off topic, but I also am a G7 owner and I would love to know what settings you're using. As you probably know, there is a tremendous amount of conflicting information online regarding the best picture profile. I have been getting decent results with both cinelikeD and Natural, but any insight you have would be greatly appreciated, especially since I am in preproduction on my first feature. Is the XL a paramount part of the quality you are getting?

[andy lee]

we did alot of testing at Media City with Cine D and Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) and hands down the best look to work with and grade was Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) and this was in a hi end Davinci Grading suite that does feature films every week for Sony Pictures etc .

Cine D takes a whole bunch of correction just to get it usable - THEN you apply your look ontop and the whole thing is so tweeked up its a mess .

So I'm shooting the whole movie on Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) Im thinking like I used to do 20 years ago shooting film stock ,

Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) is my film stock thats the look ...and I'm shooting the whole movie like that .

 

and yes the XL is essential in my opinion as it makes the whole package a usable filmaking tool , dont forget it SHARPENS your lenses too !!

 

We did some test with an Angenieux 28-76mm 2.6 Optimo on a RED EPIC and a Nikon 28-70mm 2.8 with Metabones XL on a Panasonic G7 and there is nothing in it !

if anything the Panny Metabones combo was sharper and cleaner in the blacks no noise at all compated to the RED /Angenieux combo!!

That test convinced us the Metabones makes your Nikon Zooms into SERIOUS cinema quality Glass - faster, sharper and wider! nuff said its no brainer .

[mercer]

9 minutes ago, andy lee said:

we did alot of testing at Media City with Cine D and Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) and hands down the best look to work with and grade was Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) and this was in a hi end Davinci Grading suite that does feature films every week for Sony Pictures etc .

Cine D takes a whole bunch of correction just to get it usable - THEN you apply your look ontop and the whole thing is so tweeked up its a mess .

So I'm shooting the whole movie on Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) Im thinking like I used to do 20 years ago shooting film stock ,

Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) is my film stock thats the look ...and I'm shooting the whole movie like that .

 

and yes the XL is essential in my opinion as it makes the whole package a usable filmaking tool , dont forget it SHARPENS your lenses too !!

 

We did some test with an Angenieux 28-76mm 2.6 Optimo on a RED EPIC and a Nikon 28-70mm 2.8 with Metabones XL on a Panasonic G7 and there is nothing in it !

if anything the Panny Metabones combo was sharper and cleaner in the blacks no noise at all compated to the RED /Angenieux combo!!

That test convinced us the Metabones makes your Nikon Zooms into SERIOUS cinema quality Glass - faster, sharper and wider! nuff said its no brainer .

Really? -5 saturation? You are able to pull the color information back? So Natural -5 Contrast, -5 Noise Reduction, -5 Sharpening and -5 Saturation? 

I've been using a Nikkor ai 28mm f2 lens lately that I'm in love with, do you think it would fare well with the XL? I also have a set of Tokina AT-X manual zooms... The 24-40 and the 35-70mm f2.8... In Nikon mount. How do you think they would pair with the XL?

[andy lee]

I use Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) and I store it as CUSTOM profile 1 .....leave the NR and Sharpening at 0

yes you dial the colour back in in post ,Im shooting alot of night interior scenes in this movie on sets and I want to record a much shaddow detail as possible , I dont want crushed blacks in camera . so contrast and saturation are -5 , it works great this way . I shot a whole moive that way last year and we got superb results with it.

 

this was shot Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) with the colour dialed back in in post /grade. all that detail in the actors uniform would not be there with crushed blacks in camera .

[mercer]

It looks great!!! I love shadow detail as well, just never thought of dialing saturation all the way down. Why are you leaving sharpening and nr at 0? Obviously, you have tested this and have had good results... Otherwise you wouldn't do, but it goes against a lot of information out there... Am definitely going to try this. Thanks again... Once again you have proved to be one of the most helpful members on the site!!!

BTW, Are you using any in camera curve? Also, 0-255 or 16-255?

[PannySVHS]

Are you kidding me!:) Give us some moving pictures of that footage, some little teaser, Andy! This looks awesome! How did you meter/measure the light within the limited dynamic range of the G7? Is this all your Bourne lens magic?

11 minutes ago, andy lee said:

I use Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) and I store it as CUSTOM profile 1 .....leave the NR and Sharpening at 0

yes you dial the colour back in in post ,Im shooting alot of night interior scenes in this movie on sets and I want to record a much shaddow detail as possible , I dont want crushed blacks in camera . so contrast and saturation are -5 , it works great this way . I shot a whole moive that way last year and we got superb results with it.

 

this was shot Natural (contrast -5 and saturation -5) with the colour dialed back in in post /grade. all that detail in the actors uniform would not be there with crushed blacks in camera .

 

[andy lee]

31 minutes ago, mercer said:

It looks great!!! I love shadow detail as well, just never thought of dialing saturation all the way down. Why are you leaving sharpening and nr at 0? Obviously, you have tested this and have had good results... Otherwise you wouldn't do, but it goes against a lot of information out there... Am definitely going to try this. Thanks again... Once again you have proved to be one of the most helpful members on the site!!!

BTW, Are you using any in camera curve? Also, 0-255 or 16-255?

0-255

29 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

Are you kidding me!:) Give us some moving pictures of that footage, some little teaser, Andy! This looks awesome! How did you meter/measure the light within the limited dynamic range of the G7? Is this all your Bourne lens magic?

 

I dont ever use a meter anymore , I stopped using a  meter when I stopped shooting film , I light by eye , you just know when it looks right . There are some Arri HMI's out side lighting that scene and some Arri Fresnels inside kicking through the door way , if you set the camera up right it handles what you throw at it the Panny is a very good camera , for me its strengths are shooting at night , I know I can light superb results with it , no issues .

 

yes thats Nikon Bourne Lens / Metabones magic

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, andy lee said:

Brian , Im using your Metabones XL speedbooster in a similar situation with a Nikon 28-70mm f2.8 (The Bourne Lens) to give me a f2 zoom . I'm DOP on a British Feature film Pandora and we are using this combination as it produces stunning images with your Metabones XL . I'm going to send you a PM about the Movie and Metabones . we are committed to shooting the whole movie with Metabones as it makes all the zooms f2 !! we are using the Nikon 80-200mm f2.8 and the 20-35mm f2.8 all with the XL for the exact reasons you have pointed out in you post , size weight £££ and image quality - which is amazing !!

Why did you go with the Nikon 20-35mm f/2.8 over some other zoom such as Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8, Canon 16-35mm f/2.8 (I assume not this one because you're sticking with Nikon F mount, I do the same too), or Nikon 17-35mm f/2.8, or Tokina 16-28mm f/2.8,  etc?

10 hours ago, andy lee said:

your XL speedbooster is an amazing essential piece of kit as it makes the 4k Panasonic cameras into very serious film making tools when paired with Nikon 2.8 Zooms ,

As I mentioned Im DOP on a British Feature film Pandora , we will be shooting this film with PANASONIC G7 4K cameras and Metabones XL Speedboosters.

We have done extensive tesing of the G7 camera in 4k 24p mode with Metabones XL Speedbooster at Media City in Salford UK with my post production house - We Create - (Rod Edney and Paul Whiting) and we have found the G7 / Metabones XL Speedbooster combination to be better in low light and less noise in the blacks than the RED 4K files we compared it against and found it also almost indistinguishable from Arri Alexa files we compared it against.

The guys at Media City where very impressed with the Metabones XL Speedbooster.  All in all we are committed to making the whole movie with Metabones XL Speedboosters on all 4 camera Rigs.

WOW, are you shooting with 4 cameras simultaneously?? :-o

 

As you mentioned you're doing a lot of night shooting, what made you not go instead with the "conventional logic" of using an A7s mk2 for the night shoots?

Also you mentioned comparing the G7 files against RED and Alexa files, was a RED or Arri Alexa camera ever an option for your budget? Or were you just comparing for the sake of seeing how the G7 measures up? Did you consider a Sony F5 (or FS7)? As that is the camera I'd leap for if budget allowed and a lot of low light shooting is required (as I own a Sony F3 and am pleased indeed with how it performs in low light).
 

[Fredrik Lyhne]

@Mercer, have you tried the Leeming Lut for Cine D? It's for the GH4 but It might work for G7. He's also making a special lut G7. http://www.visceralpsyche.com/shop.html

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Let's just say that's it's so cool to have @Brian Caldwell here posting ideas/threads. If anyone doesn't know: you're talking to the creator and inventor of the Speedbooster. 

Some speedbooster s35 miracles that are possible are:

-Nikon 20-50mm f/1.8 APS-C lens (with the legendary 28-70mm f/2.8 AF-S Andy uses)

-Canon 17-50mm f/1.8 L APS-C lens (with the 24-70mm f/2.8, any version)

-Canon/Sigma 17-75mm f/2.8 IS  APS-C lens (with the 24-105mm f/4s). Ideal s35 general purpose setup not available anywhere else under 50K+

-Canon 50-145mm F/1.8 IS APS-C lens (with the 70-200mm IS L, or Nikon 80-200mm F/2.8 AF-S Andy uses)

-Sigma 17-24mm f/1.4 APS-C lens (with the 24-35mm f/2) A variable focal length 1.4 prime.

 

What many forget is that an FD version is available so some super cheapo 100$ish e-bay set-ups are:

-Canon 24/28mm F2.8 Primes (17/20mm f/1.8 s35 lenses) 

-Canon 50mm f/1.4 (35mm f/1 s35 lens) 

-Canon 200mm f/2.8 (145mm f/1.8 s35 lens for 200-300$)

-Canon 80-200 f/4 (60-145mm f/2.8 s35 lens - super performer)

 

Fancy that FF 50mm F/1.2 look they get with a FF 5D + 50mm F/1.2 L (5000$ set-up)?

I do. LOVE IT. 

Get a 50mm 1.2 FD or Nikkor (300$ish) + SB (400$) + Any NEX/Ax000 body (200-1000$). all as low as 900$ to get the same look for those bargain hunting.

 

All made possible by the speedbooster that crushed the line between s35 & FF formats.
 

Now we're all waiting for it to do the same to MF & FF  

[mercer]

4 hours ago, Fredrik Lyhne said:

@Mercer, have you tried the Leeming Lut for Cine D? It's for the GH4 but It might work for G7. He's also making a special lut G7. http://www.visceralpsyche.com/shop.html

Thanks, this could be interesting.