Critter Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Hello Everyone, I've read these forums for a long time and learnt a whole lot. I'm in a bit of a tricky situation and would appreciate any advice or insight. As the subject suggests, tomorrrow I'm going to buy one of these cameras. SO... On Thursday I'll leave to shoot a job in another country for a month. I'll be shooting a music video and maybe some documentary / editorial stuff about a band. 4k is not important on this job (or any of my work, unless it's to downsample into good 1080p) but low-light capability is. The images on this job will be heavily processed / messed with, so good colour is not a priority, but for other future projects of course it would be. I'd been planning to take along an a7s that I have access to but will not be able to as it has to be used on another project. Maybe it's important to bear in mind I usually have access to an A7s (mk 1), shogun and great battery rig that powers it for 8 hours of shooting. I'm quite happy with it (except for the sony / s-log colour story, which I find infuriating, and which no LUTS have been able to help me out of). I have EF mount glass and a metabones smart adapter. NOW.. I can buy a used 1DC from my local store for £3200 / $4675 (equivalent), or an A7s II for £2068 / $2998 (=) The cost isn't my main concern. My business can afford the expense in either case, and I feel like the price is right. I'm more worried about making sure I don't buy the wrong thing. I bought a GH4 a year ago based on online buzz (was living somewhere remote, couldn't try it out) and found it's low light abilities. DR and color very disappointing. My question, for people with experience of both cameras is - IF you had to choose between an A7s II and a 1DC, and you had to choose tomorrow, which would you go for? AND some bonus questions.. Does anyone feel that a 5d mk4 with 4k, C-LOG and Dual Pixel AF in March is a strong possibility? If yes, I may try and make a deal with the store, AND has anyone found a bulletproof s-log colour workflow which is semi quick and gives great results / no color casts / healthy skintones. Advice from your own experience of working with either system (ideally, with both systems) is very much appreciated. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrorSvensson Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 i would choose 1dc because they are so durable and very reliable, also the customer service with canon is great so if the unlikely event of something going wrong happens there probably is someone to fix it not far away. With the sony its also more work to get the great look of the 1dc. What country are you going to? If there's lots of rain and very cold outside the a7sii wont enojy it whilst the 1dc can handle it like a champ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critter Posted February 7, 2016 Author Share Posted February 7, 2016 I'll be shooting in California. Not expecting much bad weather but you never know. Thanks for the advice Bror, weather sealing is definitely a positive, especially so far from home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Since you're familiar with the a7s I'd immediately suggest the Sony. You know it's limitations and will know how to get the most from it. and since you just want to stick a lut onto the footage anyway why not just disregard s-log and use a nice and solid neutral picture profile with the contrast dialled down. Using the in built exposure meter it's almost impossible to blow highlights and since the image is so noise free you can pull shadows up and get all that info back anyway. Get your white balance right and the image will be lovely. The A7 range is weather sealed enough to accommodate any weather situation where you;d be happy to also allow your lenses to be subjected to the same arduous conditions. If you intend on shooting stills of wetlands birds in the pouring rain or a rugby match in the rain then go canon 1dc. you'll need expensive cards and external monitoring with the 1dc (the external monitor will also need to be weather sealed to the same standard as the 1dc in order to benefot from the weather sealing of the 1dc- so good luck finding one of those). you wont find a replacement 1dc anywhere but from a specialist dealer, where a7s's are ten a penny in just about every camera store - available to walk in and buy to get the job done. a solid 50p full hd image from the a7s2 will also be advantageous for a music video I imagine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Daniel Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 I agree with Rich - you should 100% go for the A7SII, especially since it's a music video. A7SII advantages are: - IBIS (awesome!) - 50p and 100p for slow motion. - Small size, easy to transport. - Much smaller file sizes. - E mount, adapting lenses is easy. You will have to factor in these things though: - Battery life is very, very poor. I go through around 8 batteries per shoot. I'd recommend getting some USB powerpack if battery charging is an issue. - Get a 5" monitor for the hotshoe. I find the back LCD quite hard to use. I have the Sony CLM-FHD5 and it's a revelation. On Slog2 - it takes practice but it's awesome in the right conditions. In lowlight, use another profile like Cine2 or Neutral with PP off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted February 7, 2016 Administrators Share Posted February 7, 2016 Yes the image can match in terms of colour in post... A7S II just takes more expertise. The A7S II gives you almost everything on a plate but yet doesn't fully feel satisfying sometimes. I cannot quite put my finger on it. Maybe it is the way certain scenes like S-LOG exposed a certain way for best results and you really don't get a lot of help from the camera in knowing when to expose which way. It has to be spot on. Then the footage off the card looks thin, green-tinted grey and you have to work hard in post or find the right LUT... and even then sometimes after many hours I am still tinkering over the mouse and keyboard not quite fully satisfied. The standard pic profiles are C.R.A.P. S-LOG 3 can't do skies and walls. Canon LOG is far superior and the MJPEG codec at 500Mbit/s is 5x the bitrate of the A7S II's 4K codec so it feels thicker with a finer more film like noise grain, it is also 4:2:2. Colour really is outstanding on it, it seems the debayer on the Canon body has some secret recipe to reign in green, boost reds and blues. Green photosites on a bayer sensor outnumber the red and blue ones. I don't feel Sony have a handle on this yet like Canon or Fuji do, and a Foveon sensor beats a bayer sensor for colour and tonality hands-down. You really notice when you see the difference. The 1D C is certainly the better built body and feels more pro, the A7S II has a charmless feel and cheap feel to the dials and buttons. Overall I think the image on the 1D C is more cinematic and the grain is finer, with 12,800 being perfectly usable. The A7S II is a smoother more digital look. Sony's menus are complex and the camera has a busy feel sometimes on a shoot. On the 1D C there are hardly any options on the camera to think about. Shame the files are enormous on the 1D C and it has no EVF or articulated screen. Also you can't punch in for focus during a shot. Battery grip helps the A7S II, bulking up the handling whilst doubling the battery life in-between swapping cells. IBIS on the A7S II works like IS on Canon lenses, it isn't a revelation like the Olympus system but it's a nice bonus. Francesco Spiezia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ebrahim Saadawi Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 1DC better build better stills better image a7s better ergonomics better mount better price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 This is a decision someone else can't really answer for you. There are pro's and cons for both. If you just list the specs, the A7s II goes far ahead. But if you use them yourself, you will really got to know them and find a preference. I would personally probably go for the 1Dc knowing it's limitations but I think (reading your first post) that you should go with the A7s ii. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaylee Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 wow this is such a nice civilized thread with tons of relevant information and differing opinions that havent resulted in fighting 12 hours ago, Critter said: Hello Everyone, hi critter!!!! 12 hours ago, Critter said: I've read these forums for a long time and learnt a whole lot. me too 12 hours ago, Critter said: The images on this job will be heavily processed / messed with, so good colour is not a priority, but for other future projects of course it would be. well thats key. i think at the end of the day youre going to like the color more in the future from the 1dc, but at the moment the a7sii is definitely the better fit for you, especially since youre already pretty happy with using an a7s, minus the weirdness of its slog2. color is definitely better on the a7sii in that regard 12 hours ago, Critter said: I bought a GH4 a year ago based on online buzz (was living somewhere remote, couldn't try it out) and found it's low light abilities...very disappointing. i cant speak much to the lowlight on the 1dc, besides all things being equal its very good, but clearly the a7sii is your single best option here~! 12 hours ago, Critter said: My question, for people with experience of both cameras is - IF you had to choose between an A7s II and a 1DC, and you had to choose tomorrow, which would you go for? if i were YOU, a7sii all the way 12 hours ago, Critter said: Does anyone feel that a 5d mk4 with 4k, C-LOG and Dual Pixel AF in March is a strong possibility? haaaa ? i wish~! im agnostic about a 5d3 update ever happening. will it be higher mp?? lower?? low light?? ? 4k??? video??? two different bodies???? different form factor???? all of the above? idk smh honestly id be thrilled with an amazing 2k image thats thick and deeply gradable* dpaf is sicc tho anyway good luck on your trip and welcome to california!!!! *and a flippy screen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critter Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 Hey Everyone, Just wanted to thank you all for your thoughts and insights, and for taking the time to help me out. I think I managed to figure out something pretty good. The store is going to loan me an A7s for the job, on condition that I buy the 1DC when I get back. They were also able to knock 10% off the price, so I've got the low light / small files for this project, and a better image / more rugged camera for when I get back. (I normally have access to the a7s, too) so it all worked out pretty nicely. Thanks again, wish me luck. I'll let you know how I get on if I remember : ) kaylee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austinchimp Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 I agree with Andrew's points. I've been thinking about writing about my experience of going from an A7s to 1DC and then back to the A7rii actually. It's been a slightly confusing but very illuminating journey in the development of my skills and tastes. In my experience I'm yet to find a 'bulletproof' consistent workflow for s-log. It's maddeningly different depending on the light and color temperature. Having said that I haven't used S-log3, just S-log2. If you're running and gunning then I'm not sure s-log is ever going to be easy. But I am finding the Sony (with the right post work) to produce a more modern look, if that's what you're after. By modern I mean more on trend with adverts and music videos thesedays, but not necessarily a 'better' image per se. kaylee and sam 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critter Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 Oh Also, I wanted to say I feel sort of honoured to see all the greats helping out on my little post. Special shout outs to Andrew and Ebrahim. You've both helped out countless people, I'm not sure if you get thanked enough. So thank you Andrew Reid 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronChicago Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 For either camera I'd suggest getting the SmallHD 501 with the pan/tilt mount. Super lightweight 5" screen with LUT viewing for Slog2, Slog3, and C-Log. http://store.smallhd.com/store/500-accessories/500-700-pan-tilt-mount Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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