Time to step up - Panasonic GH5 must go 6K Super 35mm to compete in 2016

[sanveer]

Whoa !!! What's wrong with Everyone on EOSHD???

Andrew didn't say a super 35mm sensor. Only a 35mm size crop (with a M4/3) lens setup. Sensor will be the 1.86 crop like on the GH2, not the smaller 2.0 Crop like on the GH4. 

There could be a Panasonic built-in equivalent of the Metabones lens booster. Whatever is needed basically for a wider frame.

 

[raf702]

IF GH5 goes S35, they should implement a m43 mode that center crops the sensor to allow m43 lens coverage. That way m43 lenses won't become obsolete for future GH lines. It would be a pretty sweet dual system. 

Along with higher DR, 10-bit internal, clean iso up to 6400, 4K-60p or 4K-100p, 1080-240p, vlog 2.0, vlog assist(like Sony a7s2), uncompressed hdmi, and other features.

I'm not ecstatic about 5K/6K/etc., just give us awesome 4K features. If I want 5k and up I'd rent a RED or something. 

[cantsin]

4 minutes ago, roxics said:

Compressed raw would be great on a GH. But I wouldn't bet on it for a GH5, maybe a GH6 in 2019/2020. By then memory speeds should be even faster.
 

I wouldn't bet on it even then, at least not on internal raw recording. The problem is the consumer market. A buyer of a Panasonic camera will expect that any SD card s/he buys will work in the camera. Blackmagic already has major issues with buyers of their cameras who disregard its official guidelines for compatible SD cards and SSDs. (Even those who are informed will blindly buy some card with a 95MB/s label only to find out that it won't work or drop frames.) Companies like Panasonic, Sony, Canon can simply not risk dealing with masses of people returning their cameras, or sending them in for 'repair', because of such issues. For their mass market products, they need to cater to a low common denominator of available technology on the market. [Remember people's troubles with the h265 codec of the NX1 ...]

6 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Whoa !!! What's wrong with Everyone on EOSHD???

Andrew didn't say a super 35mm sensor. Only a 35mm size crop (with a M4/3) lens setup. Sensor will be the 1.86 crop like on the GH2, not the smaller 2.0 Crop like on the GH4. 

 

Seems you haven't carefully read the article. He explicitly and cleary writes Super 35mm sensor size with 1.5x crop, which would require new or adapted lenses, and electronic in-camera crop for legacy MFT lenses.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Panasonic GH line will stay at m43s. It's a given. The newer GH4 will probably have a full sensor readout (2x crop) in 4K so can go very high up to APS-H with their SB. I just want a significant increase in lowlight performance from the next GH camera, full sensor readout, and 12 stops of DR with included V-LOG that doesn't have the current magenta blocking issue. That's what I realistically expect. And the body is due for a shape redesign/improvement. I expect the GH4 to have a longer product cycle than its predecessors. Not a GH5 before 2017 since the current 4k GH4 is doing extremely well up until now. Some sonys and canons or nikons come up with 4k cameras with larger sensors but nothing has the reliability and battery life and features of the gh4 including no 30min tax restriction and no overheating or unexpected image defects. Just a solid camera and still the best for the money. 

[sanveer]

8 minutes ago, cantsin said:

I wouldn't bet on it even then, at least not on internal raw recording. The problem is the consumer market. A buyer of a Panasonic camera will expect that any SD card s/he buys will work in the camera. Blackmagic already has major issues with buyers of their cameras who disregard its official guidelines for compatible SD cards and SSDs. (Even those who are informed will blindly buy some card with a 95MB/s label only to find out that it won't work or drop frames.) Companies like Panasonic, Sony, Canon can simply not risk dealing with masses of people returning their cameras, or sending them in for 'repair', because of such issues. For their mass market products, they need to cater to a low common denominator of available technology on the market. [Remember people's troubles with the h265 codec of the NX1 ...]

Seems you haven't carefully read the article. He explicitly and cleary writes Super 35mm sensor size with 1.5x crop, which would require new or adapted lenses, and electronic in-camera crop for legacy MFT lenses.

Actually I guess we're both wrong.

He did say a 35mm sensor ("The Micro Four Thirds mount physically fits a Super 35mm sensor. This has been proven.")

But retaining the M4/3rds mount. 

[cantsin]

@sanveer: Yes, I implied nothing else. But could it be that you are confused about the difference between Super 35mm (equivalent to APS-C) and 35mm full frame?

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

He means a 1.5/1.6x crop sensor behind a m43s mount, as on the JVC LS300. 

[sudopera]

I don't see why those specs that Andrew mentioned should be so unrealistic, to me it would be even logical because that way Panasonic could differentiate GH and GX lines more. GX for photography purists that want to shoot decent video from time to time and GH the other way around. Right now those two lines have almost the same features with different styled bodies, what is the point in that in this overcrowded market? I think it is clear now that GH cameras are recognised more in the market as video tools, so for me it is only logical to give priority to video specs in the next model.

Also who says that Panasonic couldn't ask much more then before for a camera with those specs, if it was priced around 2500$ it would be on the top of my list.

 

[cantsin]

8 minutes ago, sudopera said:

I don't see why those specs that Andrew mentioned should be so unrealistic, to me it would be even logical because that way Panasonic could differentiate GH and GX lines more.

Here's my 2 cents: I think it's completely unrealistic because all existing M43 lenses would not cover that sensor. It would be too expensive and logistically too complex (think production lines, warehousing, retail shelving) for Panasonic introduce an entirely new line of APS C-covering M43 mount lenses. They would be too expensive to develop, too difficult to market, create a lot of confusion among consumers, and would mean that Panasonic would have to give up some of the compact size advantages of M43 lenses. The alternative, that Panasonic wouldn't create any native APS-C lenses itself, but offer the APS-C option only for people who adapt third party lenses, would be business suicide, since the whole point of an interchangeable lens camera system is that people buy your lenses. 

[sudopera]

Just now, cantsin said:

Here's my 2 cents: I think it's completely unrealistic because all existing M43 lenses would not cover that sensor. It would be too expensive and logistically too complex (think production lines, warehousing, retail shelving) for Panasonic introduce an entirely new line of APS C-covering M43 mount lenses. They would be too expensive to develop, to difficult to market, create a lot of confusion among consumers, and would mean that Panasonic would have to give up some of the compact size advantages of M43 lenses. The alternative, that Panasonic wouldn't create any native APS-C lenses itself, but offer the APS-C option only for people who adapt third party lenses, would be business suicide, since the whole point of an interchangeable lens camera system is that people buy your lenses. 

Well the thing that I understood from this article is that you would still be able to use regular M43 lenses on this camera with readout from the smaller region of the sensor, so I don't see your point here.

[cantsin]

14 minutes ago, sudopera said:

Well the thing that I understood from this article is that you would still be able to use regular M43 lenses on this camera with readout from the smaller region of the sensor, so I don't see your point here.

But who would then produce lenses for the full sensor area? Try to look at it from an economic angle. Either Panasonic introduces a new line of APS-C covering lenses (=not economical) or Panasonic gives up full APS-C coverage to adapted lenses (=not economical either, because then Panasonic would lose its lens market for the camera). Aside from the fact that it's completely unrealistic to think that a mass market consumer electronic producer would tell its customers to adapt third-party lenses.

What is realistic, from an economical point of view, is that Panasonic sooner or later introduces a mirrorless full frame camera which can also shoot in APS-C and Four Thirds mode (just like Sony A7 cameras can shoot in APS-C mode with all existing APS-C e-mount lenses), and will offer an adapter with which MFT lenses can be put on the full frame body.

[Jaime Valles]

No, no, no. I don't want a Super 35 sensor in a GH5. I REALY LIKE the Micro 4/3 size sensor. It makes focusing easier than S35, yet still has enough shallow depth of field to look cinematic. I don't care for Speedboosters. I love using my Voigtlander and Lumix lenses on my GH4, and would want the GH5 to shoot on a 5K or 6K m4/3 sensor downsampled to 4K in camera. 10-bit 4:2:2 internal 4K would be an incredible way for the GH5 to separate itself from everything else in the market.

I don't want to use S35 or FF lenses. I WANT my lenses to remain small. I want my whole kit to remain small. There are tons of other cameras out there right now that use S35 or FF sensors. I don't want to pay for a large sensor if I'm just going to use a 4K crop from it because of all my m4/3 lenses. If you want S35 or FF, buy a different camera. Get the Sony A6300 or something else. Leave the GH series Micro 4/3 sensor, because there are a lot of us that find it the perfect size sensor.

 

What I want in a GH5 (in order of importance to me):

• Micro 4/3 sensor
• Internal 10-bit 4:2:2 4K
• ISO 3200 as good as the current ISO 800 of the GH4
• 4K 60p
• No lag on the HDMI output
• V-Log included
• Keep the same style body & battery so all GH4 accessories work

[dr_jon]

1 minute ago, Jaime Valles said:

No, no, no. I don't want a Super 35 sensor in a GH5. I REALY LIKE the Micro 4/3 size sensor. It makes focusing easier than S35, yet still has enough shallow depth of field to look cinematic. I don't care for Speedboosters. I love using my Voigtlander and Lumix lenses on my GH4, and would want the GH5 to shoot on a 5K or 6K m4/3 sensor downsampled to 4K in camera. 10-bit 4:2:2 internal 4K would be an incredible way for the GH5 to separate itself from everything else in the market.

I don't want to use S35 or FF lenses. I WANT my lenses to remain small. I want my whole kit to remain small. There are tons of other cameras out there right now that use S35 or FF sensors. I don't want to pay for a large sensor if I'm just going to use a 4K crop from it because of all my m4/3 lenses. If you want S35 or FF, buy a different camera. Get the Sony A6300 or something else. Leave the GH series Micro 4/3 sensor, because there are a lot of us that find it the perfect size sensor.

 

What I want in a GH5 (in order of importance to me):

• Micro 4/3 sensor
• Internal 10-bit 4:2:2 4K
• ISO 3200 as good as the current ISO 800 of the GH4
• 4K 60p
• No lag on the HDMI output
• V-Log included
• Keep the same style body & battery so all GH4 accessories work

I can't see you getting ISO 3200 as good as the GH4's 800 unless it's by more noise reduction, as it's a sensor area issue, most of the noise coming in with the light rather than being due to the sensor. I don't know if you'll get 10-bit but it's a definite maybe. I think the rest looks likely. I'd also like FHD modes that don't skip 30% of the pixels, so the aliasing/moire goes away. I suspect they will try to be close to the Ultra HD Blu-ray spec, including gamut.

[Cinegain]

From a size perspective... the A5100 and A6000 are smaller than GH4. All APS-C stills cameras are aimed at the consumer crowd and priced accordingly/affordable (except perhaps the 7D & Hasselblad Sony rebrands). Just about all fullframe cameras are aimed at the enthusiast/prosumer/pro crowd and priced accordingly as well. There's a big gap in between APS-C and FF. Yet, between M43 and APS-C not so much. So from a costs perspective, I'm not sure why you'd oppose it either, if anything, APS-C actually seems the more mainstream, convenient and economical option to go with.

Lenses... I have seen small enough lenses on Sony E-mount cameras as well. You don't want to use other than M43 lenses with your S35 camera... ok, fine, don't. You can still use your M43 line-up lenses and have the sensor cropped accordingly, acting as a 4/3" sensored camera. Don't see why introducing a new line-up is a bad thing? Mutliple manufacturers have more than one specific sensor area covering mount. Panasonic has to keep up. Easy as that. You can't just magically make a sensor suddenly be hell of a lot more sensitive... but what's always an easy fix is increasing it's size. And as I said before, I think APS-C is where it's at. Sure they could introduce a fullframe system or a strictly APS-C one... but that's bad. You already have a eco system... and you want to give the people already shooting a Panasonic, having a bunch of native lenses to not start a system with like 3 lenses that will work natively only. Introducing a S35 camera that takes an existing lens eco system and expands on that with a new line-up... I think it's a smart move. Sure you could say 'well, if that's your philosophy, then you can also make it a fullframe camera and make it take M43 and act as a 4/3" sensored camera', well, you're forgetting why people love the GH-series then. S35 just makes sense. To me atleast. I'd like to see it. Don't find it too far fetched at all.

[cantsin]

Thinking about it more: It would make a lot of sense for Panasonic to introduce a Full Frame camera with an 8K sensor and 8K video recording. 8K is about to become standard in Japan anyway, and such a camera would give Panasonic the same competitive edge with higher video resolution on a consumer mirrorless camera as the GH4 did when it was introduced. Panasonic could make MFT lenses fully adaptable to the full frame camera and offer 4K recording in MFT crop mode. Since MFT has exactly 50% horizontal coverage of full frame, this would result in a clean 4K image.

[VanWeddings]

i think it'll be better for panny to do two product lines. keep the gh5 as a m43 camera because there are definite size and weight advantages. launch a new line with either 35mm or full frame sensor and new lenses. keep the ergonomics amazing, get better color depth and low light, and i'm sold.

[Jaime Valles]

29 minutes ago, dr_jon said:

I can't see you getting ISO 3200 as good as the GH4's 800 unless it's by more noise reduction, as it's a sensor area issue, most of the noise coming in with the light rather than being due to the sensor. I don't know if you'll get 10-bit but it's a definite maybe. I think the rest looks likely. I'd also like FHD modes that don't skip 30% of the pixels, so the aliasing/moire goes away. I suspect they will try to be close to the Ultra HD Blu-ray spec, including gamut.

Sensor size is not the only factor that determines noise in the image. The GH4 has a smaller sensor than the GH2, yet it has better performance at the same ISO. ISO 3200 is only 2 stops higher sensitivity than ISO 800. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect better ISO performance from the GH5 using a Micro 4/3 sensor.

Also, I forgot to add to my list that I want the GH5 should have 5-axis in-built image stabilizer, as long as the camera doesn't overheat like the Sony cameras. I need to be able to shoot continuous footage (not limited to 30 minutes) so if IBIS causes short record times then no thanks.

[dr_jon]

33 minutes ago, cantsin said:

Thinking about it more: It would make a lot of sense for Panasonic to introduce a Full Frame camera with an 8K sensor and 8K video recording. 8K is about to become standard in Japan anyway, and such a camera would give Panasonic the same competitive edge with higher video resolution on a consumer mirrorless camera as the GH4 did when it was introduced. Panasonic could make MFT lenses fully adaptable to the full frame camera and offer 4K recording in MFT crop mode. Since MFT has exactly 50% horizontal coverage of full frame, this would result in a clean 4K image.

Provided someone designed a 32MP FFs sensor that is fast enough to shoot 8k video (which is very fast indeed). I find it hard to see how they would make their money back as lots of the people shooting 8k are also the people using cine lenses that generally don't have an FF image circle. Sony might, but it would be hard to keep cool.

12 minutes ago, Jaime Valles said:

Sensor size is not the only factor that determines noise in the image. The GH4 has a smaller sensor than the GH2, yet it has better performance at the same ISO. ISO 3200 is only 2 stops higher sensitivity than ISO 800. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect better ISO performance from the GH5 using a Micro 4/3 sensor.

Also, I forgot to add to my list that I want the GH5 should have 5-axis in-built image stabilizer, as long as the camera doesn't overheat like the Sony cameras. I need to be able to shoot continuous footage (not limited to 30 minutes) so if IBIS causes short record times then no thanks.

At ISO 800 a GH4 pixel can hold 5091 electrons and has a read noise of 3.1 electrons. That means the noise in the light will exceed the read noise once you get to about 17 electrons (it's 56% efficient converting photons to electrons and the noise in light is the square root of the number of photons). So anytime the pixel is much more than 3.3% illuminated the sensor read noise isn't that big a thing. For example at 10% illumination (509 electrons) you have on average 17 electrons of noise and the rest is signal. Even if you go from 3.1 electrons of read noise to 0.5 it isn't making a significant difference (btw noise combines as less than straight addition).

[John 67]

Followed the forum for some time...just signed up to comment on this topic....gh4 is a great camera ...animation, time lapse(built in),slo mo,anamorphic ,high bit rate 4k cinema and 3800 , shutter angle,zebra's  log and so on...and at a price point well within everyone's reach it straddles a huge slice of the market place....it does not need to change so dramatically it just needs to get a little better ....96fps a little cleaner or perhaps 120fps ...anamorphic de-squeeze? a little here and there...from a commercial point of view they should invest money in spreading their wings a little no-one including Panasonic  have an endless pot of gold ...they should do exactly the same thing again in a different segment of the market ...a medium format camera ...why fight in a crowded sector ...the gh4 is loved as much by photographers as it is by the video crowd ...straddle a large sector again both groups would lap up a medium format camera hybrid...it would do something not done in this field bring a crowd!...this would bring the price point again to larger market...if your going to spend on new sensors then this sector is ripe ...margins would be bigger (nothing less than 5 k in this band) if they could knock 2 off that the photographers alone would bite theirs hands off...your going to invest in new glass?...here it is ....could certainly help in short term if mount was easy to convert legacy glass to..anyone for 65mm?

[Jaime Valles]

20 minutes ago, dr_jon said:

At ISO 800 a GH4 pixel can hold 5091 electrons and has a read noise of 3.1 electrons. That means the noise in the light will exceed the read noise once you get to about 17 electrons (it's 56% efficient converting photons to electrons and the noise in light is the square root of the number of photons). So anytime the pixel is much more than 3.3% illuminated the sensor read noise isn't that big a thing. For example at 10% illumination (509 electrons) you have on average 17 electrons of noise and the rest is signal. Even if you go from 3.1 electrons of read noise to 0.5 it isn't making a significant difference (btw noise combines as less than straight addition).

So... are you saying a GH5 with a Micro 4/3 sensor can't have better ISO performance than a GH4?

10 minutes ago, John 67 said:

Followed the forum for some time...just signed up to comment on this topic....gh4 is a great camera ...animation, time lapse(built in),slo mo,anamorphic ,high bit rate 4k cinema and 3800 , shutter angle,zebra's  log and so on...and at a price point well within everyone's reach it straddles a huge slice of the market place....it does not need to change so dramatically it just needs to get a little better ....96fps a little cleaner or perhaps 120fps ...anamorphic de-squeeze? a little here and there...from a commercial point of view they should invest money in spreading their wings a little no-one including Panasonic  have an endless pot of gold ...they should do exactly the same thing again in a different segment of the market ...a medium format camera ...why fight in a crowded sector ...the gh4 is loved as much by photographers as it is by the video crowd ...straddle a large sector again both groups would lap up a medium format camera hybrid...it would do something not done in this field bring a crowd!...this would bring the price point again to larger market...if your going to spend on new sensors then this sector is ripe ...margins would be bigger (nothing less than 5 k in this band) if they could knock 2 off that the photographers alone would bite theirs hands off...your going to invest in new glass?...here it is ....could certainly help in short term if mount was easy to convert legacy glass to..anyone for 65mm?

See, now THAT's a good idea. Everyone and their mother already has a FF or S35 camera in their lineup... except Panasonic. If they introduce a medium format camera and lens lineup then they have the best of both worlds: Micro 4/3 for the masses and Medium Format for the fashion and commercial crowds. Why compete against Canon, Nikon & Sony?