RED "weapon" 8K footage

[Phil Holland]

Thanks for the kind words guys.  This was a fun and sort of insane shoot.

I've written up a few words on lens selection, lighting, and post workflow with some BTS stills here:

http://phfx.com/articles/forgedIn8K/

 

To answer a few questions.

@Dan Wake - Editing native REDCODE RAW is something I've been doing for a while.  This shoot was done this way using Adobe Premiere Pro CC which has GPU acceleration and adaptive resolution settings while editing.  I even ran some of these files through my laptop and was able to "work" effectively.  While this is not the only way of working, especially on longer projections with more content and assets, it's certainly something that doable not on a NASA supercomputer

@araucaria - 8K is interesting.  For display purposes I would prefer 8K to hit theatrical and exhibition use before it hits home.  At the moment and for a long time, like a decade plus, UHD 4K is going to be the focused format for home use.  Especially since every major studio has now come to an agreement on a UHD Premium Standard via the UHD Alliance.  The resolution itself can be down sampled of course and that provides certain advantages as you mentioned to the debayering process.  However, 8K will indeed land on screens and screens smaller than you think.  I wrote up a paper titled "The Window Effect" that explains much about resolution and optimum viewing distances not too long ago.  Here's a link to it:

http://www.phfx.com/articles/theWindowEffect/

 

@Jimmy - Thank you Jimmy.  IMAX theatrical presentation is one area I'd like to see this camera used the most.  

 

@DPStewart - Thanks Stewart.  Resolution is all about "what type" of resolution it is.  I have a great deal of experience in the world of motion picture film scanning and film's resolving power purely comes down to what format you are shooting, what stock you are using, and the glass you are shooting with.  Super 35mm for instance resolves about 4K-5K worth of detail.  Typically we scan it in at 6K and over sample to down sample to yield better quality results.  At 6K resolution Super 35mm film's grain is globular and larger than a pixel.  It isn't exactly sharp, but it's rather smooth.  Most higher end digital cinema cameras that are using Bayer Pattern sensor tech are somewhat emulating that effect to a degree.  When we get to larger film formats like VistaVision 8-perf, 65mm 5-perf, and 70mm IMAX 15-perf the resolution increases based on the negative size.  If you've seen a full optical release of a properly shot IMAX film, it's still a tremendous visual treat.

 

@Mattias Burling - Much of what I'm after with my images is due to my film background.  I'd say not until fairly recently, like around 2013 did we actually get into the true potential of digital film alternatives when it comes to motion picture production.  Film still has that magical quality to it that's something hard to truly define, but at this point there's certainly quality alternatives for those who choose the crazy world of digital capture.  And it's a very controlled yet flexible format at that.  Much of my earlier work before RED hit the scene and even before the PV Genesis was making digital cameras look more like film.  Adding grain was one aspect of that, but I'll tell you 10+ years ago it was much harder to do than with today's cameras.  Especially if you are using high resolution scans of actual film grain.

 

@Goose - Thank you.  Seems like 20000 people like it and about 3 don't so far   But boy do those negative comments sting.

 

@AaronChicago - Guardians of the Galaxy Vol.2 has already begun filming on the first batch of 8K Weapons and it's going to be interesting to see how that translates to VFX and post workflow for sure.  I think they are aiming for a 4K finish if I'm not mistaken.  The standard in 2020 will still be mostly 4K, but 8K broadcast trials start this year and in 2020 NHK is hoping to broadcast the Olympics in 8K "somewhere".  As for the next 10-15 years, yep, a lot of UHD 4K with a growing trend of 8K for productions that are looking to explore that world.  HDR is going to be the next big thing that comes home it seems.

 

@richg101 - You hit the nail on the head when it comes to glass Richard.  That's the main reason I went with the Otus primes.  However!  I did also use a few several decades old Olympus OM lenses in there as well as a Leica-R and Canon 200mm (so I didn't set myself on fire).  I have a feeling the Otus trio will be something I'll be shooting a lot of content with on the 8K.  And much of this was f/2, with a few f/1.4-f/2.8 shots in there.  There's something truly seductive about this format size and focusing on nuanced detail in my opinion.

@Dan Wake - That flicker doesn't show in my ProRes masters here.  It appears it's a YouTube encoding artifact.  Had to watch both a few times to make sure I wasn't crazy.  Seems to be minimized when watching full screen on a 4K display, but it's certainly weird.

 

 

[sam]

Phil, thanks for all the knowledge you costantly share.  Hope you have a good time in Miami!  

[Andrew Reid]

Nice to see you here Phil!

Loved the film.

[mercer]

I just picked up a couple F2 om lenses, so it's nice to see that they have enough resolving power for 8k... Even though I couldn't tell you which shots, specifically, they were used. 

[mkabi]

On 2/19/2016 at 1:37 AM, Mattias Burling said:

But we differ on one subject. He loves the look of Loord of the rings, CGI, 48fps, sharp sharp images etc.
I like practical effects, film, 24p etc.

 

I saw the Hobbit in 48fps in theatres, and I didn't like it at all.

I rewatched it in theatres at 24p, and I knew why.

I dont' mind the sharp sharp images, but if its getting into people's faces and you can see the make up and prosthetic stuff... all fake props like the axes looked plasticky... How can anyone like that????

 

[DPStewart]

6 hours ago, mkabi said:

I saw the Hobbit in 48fps in theatres, and I didn't like it at all.

I rewatched it in theatres at 24p, and I knew why.

I dont' mind the sharp sharp images, but if its getting into people's faces and you can see the make up and prosthetic stuff... all fake props like the axes looked plasticky... How can anyone like that????

 

My thoughts exactly, mate!

[AaronChicago]

48fps is going to be great for animated 3D movies.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

On 2/20/2016 at 1:11 AM, Phil Holland said:

@richg101 - You hit the nail on the head when it comes to glass Richard.  That's the main reason I went with the Otus primes.  However!  I did also use a few several decades old Olympus OM lenses in there as well as a Leica-R and Canon 200mm (so I didn't set myself on fire).  I have a feeling the Otus trio will be something I'll be shooting a lot of content with on the 8K.  And much of this was f/2, with a few f/1.4-f/2.8 shots in there.  There's something truly seductive about this format size and focusing on nuanced detail in my opinion.

Can you elaborate more on the Olympus OM lenses you used, your experience with them, and their history in VistaVision? There's so little publicly available information about these lenses, and what's there isn't very helpful.

Thanks in advance, and great job on the short. Watch out for flying metal!

[Ed_David]

Thanks for coming here, Phil!

It's a really beautiful video.  I like what you did.

But now talking about the red weapon - since it's kind of a showcase test video.  So nothing personal intended.  Just technical question.

The motion feels odd.  Is the shutter is at 180 degrees - did you have it locked to this or multiples of this when you overcranked?

I noticed this too on those Taylor Swift music videos.  Did you do this so you could later ramp it?

The skintones have that red dragon "beige" look.  That is what kills me about the dragon - the beige.  I tried to color it out, but it's hard to do.  Maybe switching to ACES would help?  What was your coloring workflow, Phil?

And the dynamic range is limited - the highlight blow out looks pretty bad of the smolten lava.  I know it's smolten stuff - but the highlight roll off is not smooth.  How was it when you recorded it.

Of course, I've seen a ton of film footage shot on red weapon - King Kong, Age of Adeline, Better Call Saul, all shot on red dragon, that look gorgeous!  But not all of us can use a top Hollywood colorist.

For the beige look, I think Shane Hurlbut said using the standard OLPH filter is the way to go.  I want to test that out.  What OLPH did you use?

 The beige look is why I think the red one mx and red epic mx are better cameras.  They don't have this.  But anyway, let me know.

Thanks.

___

also a funny thing has happened in the TV world - the OLED may just take off.  And maybe people will start to care about color and dynamic range, over resolution.  I love 4k - it has a beautiful inherient resolution.  But I always want skin tones first, to be as natural as possible.  And smooth highlight roll off and good dynamic range.  That's the priority.  Not the number of K's a camera can do.  

I also thought the Reverent looked bad.  But that was mostly shot with the Alexa M, I think.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

God this 4K grab is SHARP.

Too sharp even if you ask me! Amazing quality, looks like a still image from a Canon/Nikon DSLR but in 24p. Any 8K frame grabs? Ungraded TIFFs hopefully for us to experience the camera's actual full quality in a frame.

Thanks

[Amro Othman]

That does look like a still for sure!

[Ed_David]

13 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

God this 4K grab is SHARP.

Too sharp even if you ask me! Amazing quality, looks like a still image from a Canon/Nikon DSLR but in 24p. Any 8K frame grabs? Ungraded TIFFs hopefully for us to experience the camera's actual full quality in a frame.

Thanks

Yes it is sharp - but look at the beige skintones - he looks like he's as tan as Donald Trump.  And not secondary skintones on his face, no blues, or greens.

This is more what we expect from a still, with lots of color in the face - red, blue, and some greens hitting in the face.:

This is what we need from cameras - natural skintones.  After that, then yes, resolution is important.  Need it circular and round feeling so it pops, so it shows the organicness of an image like film.  That feels, in my mind, how we see the world.

But skintones should always be the number one priority.  That's what Arri and Canon have figured out. And to many extents, Blackmagic is right there behind them. 

 

 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

16 minutes ago, Ed David said:

 

 

13 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

 

 

Well ED, I think we all agree although these two belong to the same species, they have very different skin tones :D

 

But yes I did notice his skin  right away and how it does contrast with the background, dead identical brown tone.

But I strongly believe that's much more due to the man's actual colour, the lights and most importantly the grade. So we can't tell whether it's the camera's fault unless we have another camera next to it. Maybe that's exactly his colour in real life, I can deduce that from the entirely beige environment around him, it's ALL the same colour and his skin reflects it.

[agolex]

36 minutes ago, Ed David said:

This is more what we expect from a still, with lots of color in the face - red, blue, and some greens hitting in the face.:

 

I doubt that girl is into forging weapons and getting tanned by the fire. :D

[Ed_David]

I don't think anyone looks that beige naturally.

Again, this man especially, since he seems like he is a motorcycle type-guy would especially have a lot of red in his cheeks.  We all have red in our cheeks and our skin reflects blue highlights as well, as well as pigments of green and just blue in there.

It is never this monochromatic in real life.  Below a big biker dude.  Look at the red and blue highlights and shades of green in him.  The image below is more stylized, but again, more of what we expect from a color photograph and of course, how our own eyes see the world.

 

below again no separation.

is it the grade?  Well I just spent 16 hours grading a piece with dragon mixed with MX footage and again, the beige - and I couldn't get rid of it.  I tried to shift the hue which helped slightly, but still couldn't get natural secondary grades.

Until red solves this (and maybe they have with the OLPH) - then any advantage of the dynamic range in the dragon vs the red mx chips is not valuable to me.

 

Here's Shane that shows tests with the standard OLPH vs the others:

https://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2015/11/reds-game-changing-olpf-filter-cinematography/

[Policar]

1 hour ago, Ed David said:

I don't think anyone looks that beige naturally.

Again, this man especially, since he seems like he is a motorcycle type-guy would especially have a lot of red in his cheeks.  We all have red in our cheeks and our skin reflects blue highlights as well, as well as pigments of green and just blue in there.

It is never this monochromatic in real life.  Below a big biker dude.  Look at the red and blue highlights and shades of green in him.  The image below is more stylized, but again, more of what we expect from a color photograph and of course, how our own eyes see the world.

 

below again no separation.

is it the grade?  Well I just spent 16 hours grading a piece with dragon mixed with MX footage and again, the beige - and I couldn't get rid of it.  I tried to shift the hue which helped slightly, but still couldn't get natural secondary grades.

Until red solves this (and maybe they have with the OLPH) - then any advantage of the dynamic range in the dragon vs the red mx chips is not valuable to me.

 

Here's Shane that shows tests with the standard OLPH vs the others:

https://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2015/11/reds-game-changing-olpf-filter-cinematography/

I've seen this, too, even in Gone Girl, where they at least embraced it. The new OLPF looks dramatically better at least. 

It seems like 95% of people love the Red look. I've never liked it but I'm in the minority and appreciate what the company has done for the industry. It's just a matter of taste. I always found 2k to be enough and preferred rich color over resolution, but it seems the trend is in the opposite direction, and it becomes the artist's job to follow trends or buck them in niche ways, I suppose. 

[Ed_David]

On 2/23/2016 at 7:46 PM, Policar said:

I've seen this, too, even in Gone Girl, where they at least embraced it. The new OLPF looks dramatically better at least. 

It seems like 95% of people love the Red look. I've never liked it but I'm in the minority and appreciate what the company has done for the industry. It's just a matter of taste. I always found 2k to be enough and preferred rich color over resolution, but it seems the trend is in the opposite direction, and it becomes the artist's job to follow trends or buck them in niche ways, I suppose. 

I don't know if you are in the minority, Policar.  Be proud of your tastes.  Also, how many features, commercials, and episodics shoot with the Alexa vs the Red?  You are in good company.