DayRaven Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 Just now, Axel said: It wouldn't help you, because richg101 is wrong. A log recording must be perfectly *developed* by the corresponding, official lut. If you don't see sound colors in Catalyst Browse, then they don't exist, and they can't be produced by even the most elaborate node tree . Especially if it's 8-bit you're dealing with. Axel, did you even try simply boosting the contrast on the footage rich presented? The colours are there and they are beautiful! Honestly, do it, resist that itchy LUT finger and, like an addict giving up crystal, force yourself cm by cm to only adjust the contrast, and see what you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted March 5, 2016 Share Posted March 5, 2016 35 minutes ago, DayRaven said: Axel, did you even try simply boosting the contrast on the footage rich presented? The colours are there and they are beautiful! Honestly, do it, resist that itchy LUT finger and, like an addict giving up crystal, force yourself cm by cm to only adjust the contrast, and see what you have. As I wrote, I can't download the original clip, and I won't download a threadbare vimeo compressed file from the cache to grade it. And I wouldn't apply a LUT, since it's not slog anyway. And using LUTs has nothing to do with addiction. 1 hour ago, richg101 said: Some people will never have the drive to persevere and succeed with things. You find it's often these people who blame the equipment rather than finding a way to make it work and yield the best from something. I just think it's madness to go to a vastly inferior camera (if only the fact that the lens mount is limited, let alone the poorer overall image quality) just because it has a picture profile that gives a desired result without any effort. I hope you don't try to describe me. I am willing to spend a lot of extra time for a better image, but if the camera is inferior and the results remain worse than what can be achieved with others - if used as advertised and intended - then screw it. EDIT: Just download the clip right now ... EDIT: Nothing was downloaded. And the download-button disappeared, only share is still there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nrubloc Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 So, the topic has generated 5 pages of friendly banter thus far..... To the original poster amsh89es335. It may help to post some footage which you had shot with the camera before selling it. Seriously though. I have seen some of the things/issues in Sony footage before, which has been mentioned, but it's not exactly a "non starter". All is a bit subjective conjecture at this point in relation to your particular footage experiences. Just use the tool that is needed based on the project. If you were to have only one camera, then get the one that would work the best generally speaking for your overall aesthetic style, production goals and or technical requirements. Some projects may have different needs and purposes, so adjust accordingly. There are often always some annoying "gotchas" or workarounds needed to broaden things a bit in order to work through some limitations. Of course don't believe the marketing or hype and get what really works for you. The A7rii is a bit at the more costly end of "prosumer" and it produces some nice imagery, but it is still technically prosumer and a bit thin in codec and at times in color. No ProRes, RAW, or 10bit out..... I wish any of these were included. I'm sure they could offer some of those options for the A7Rii, regardless of their "we can't because of hardware" spin in some cases, but they have no incentive to do so. So you get what we have here... I don't like it anymore than you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenEricson Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 15 hours ago, tellure said: I notice the colors on my Sony / Zeiss 24mm 1.8 look much more Canon L-like than on my other non-Zeiss Sony lenses. Here's a framegrab straight from camera with that lens, 1080p from the A6000 (pre-XAVCS update). Dynamic range doesn't look great to me but I think the colors are pretty decent.. not quite what I used to get with L lenses on my old Canon 5D but not bad. Definitely better than I get with my Sony 10-18mm F/4 or the Sony 50mm 1.8 OSS. It is hard to get skin to not look kind of dead on the Sony cameras. It has this white look, and if you warm up the scene, all of the other colors go crazy. The Black Magic Pocket has a tough learning curve, but I can't pull colors like these from any Sony cameras I have used, this includes FS700/7Q 10bit/4k files. It's ridiculous to get better color with a camera setup that is about 1/4 the size and price. I will admit the weaknesses of the pocket. Battery life, ergonomics, IR contamination, why does everyone defend the color so much on them. They offer so many features, but the color is definitely a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markr041 Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 "It is hard to get skin to not look kind of dead on the Sony cameras. It has this white look, and if you warm up the scene, all of the other colors go crazy." I do not understand this comment - what Picture Profile is being used (gamma, color gamut)? Do all of you realize that in Standard mode (and PP1) there is a very pronounced blue bias? That this bias is not there in PP4 (REC709 gamma and gamut)? More importantly, you can control in camera - before any compression - an incredible number of color parameters, sharpness controls, curves? Are you settling for Sony's defaults and then trying to correct them using a compressed 8-bit 4:2:0 video? Of course that will not work very well. Perhaps with log it is ok, but anything else, why not try the in-camera controls? Sure it is easier to edit in software, but then you face the limits of heavy compression, 8-bit etc. Don Kotlos 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 pretty compressed, sorry. but fuckin beautiful. took about 3 seconds. Ed David is also mostly using Sonys, and not just the ones anyone would love. we can just disagree though, everyone. don't think any of us are too heartbroken for the topic starter who's "stuck" with a d750 Don Kotlos and DayRaven 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Liam said: pretty compressed, sorry. but fuckin beautiful. took about 3 seconds. You've got to be joking. This is not just about the Vimeo compression. It is that richg101 shot a video not in LOG but with a steep curve (Natural) that holds 8-9 stops of DR at best (that is, if you not deliberately cut off highlights and shadows before recording and bake this into the 8-bit file). Now I told you I was pretty numb regarding judder. But you must be regarding color if you label this fucking beautiful. The posterization effect on the skin - and everywhere - has little to do with low data rate, richg101 has thinned out the already poor color palette even further. The child's eyes, cheeks, nose, neck, the woman's hair and shirt, in short: everything looks terrible, worse than SD-video from my 2002 VX2000 (Yes, it was a SONY!). Matthias Burling wrote: Quote Kholis profile is nice Any solution must come from this direction. But just looking at first impressions of the profile in action ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Right, so I downloaded my original file from vimeo (a 1gb file lasting 7mins, so you do the bitrate mathematics - lots of the original 50mbs xavc-s data lost in the original export). The original file had seen no adjustments at all. just an interpret from 50p to 25p. - as we all know the 50p mode on the a7s isn;t as good as the 25p mode, so the sony was at a disadvantage in bitrate terms from the moment i pressed record. Camera was set to auto exposure, and auto white balance. s-log was disabled. i was using neutral creative style with contrast and sharpening dialled down to -3. I just put the vimeo downloaded file into premiere and applied a contrast and saturation boost using 'ProcAmp'. - this provides a 32bit workspace adjustment of brightness -24, contrast +146, and saturation +140. No grading was applied. if this was shot in s-log all I;d have to do to get the same contrast is to adjust contrast and brightness in procamp more strongly. The biggest problem with users is that they overcomplicate things. if accuracy is important an image doesn't need ANY colour correction if the wb is set correctly at the start. all it needs is a change to the levels to provide the blacks and whites, then finally a midtone adjustment. a flat rec709 profile just needs less adjustment than a log profile. Anyway, I'm done with this thread. go use your nikon if it makes things easier. Liam, Cinegain, Don Kotlos and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 25 minutes ago, richg101 said: The biggest problem with users is that they overcomplicate things You are right. I apologize. 26 minutes ago, richg101 said: Anyway, I'm done with this thread. go use your nikon if it makes things easier. Please, don't take this personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Daniel Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 3 hours ago, richg101 said: Right, so I downloaded my original file from vimeo (a 1gb file lasting 7mins, so you do the bitrate mathematics - lots of the original 50mbs xavc-s data lost in the original export). The original file had seen no adjustments at all. just an interpret from 50p to 25p. - as we all know the 50p mode on the a7s isn;t as good as the 25p mode, so the sony was at a disadvantage in bitrate terms from the moment i pressed record. Camera was set to auto exposure, and auto white balance. s-log was disabled. i was using neutral creative style with contrast and sharpening dialled down to -3. I just put the vimeo downloaded file into premiere and applied a contrast and saturation boost using 'ProcAmp'. - this provides a 32bit workspace adjustment of brightness -24, contrast +146, and saturation +140. No grading was applied. if this was shot in s-log all I;d have to do to get the same contrast is to adjust contrast and brightness in procamp more strongly. The biggest problem with users is that they overcomplicate things. if accuracy is important an image doesn't need ANY colour correction if the wb is set correctly at the start. all it needs is a change to the levels to provide the blacks and whites, then finally a midtone adjustment. a flat rec709 profile just needs less adjustment than a log profile. Anyway, I'm done with this thread. go use your nikon if it makes things easier. I like the look of your original Olivia piece. The aesthetic works - doesn't matter if it doesn't technically work for us video nuts on this forum. I particulary like your "Bokeh Bonanza" video with shots of the dog with all those crazy apertures. Although it's just shots of a dogs face with some emotional music over the top, demonstrating a lens, the degraded visuals are really a pleasure to watch. I understand most people's negative stance on Sony colour, as I believe it too. But it doesn't stop me using a Sony camera. They capture great images that make me money, and nobody complains at all about the image. Although I've said it countless times, the white balance on these cameras is inaccurate/faulty. I've done various tests now and it's definitely wrong on the A7SII. This greatly affects the colour and is hard to fix in post. When the white balance reading is close however, colour isn't much of an issue. Axel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 Thank's Oliver. You are right, and I think everybody made his point. I just wanted to say to richg101, that I too liked his misty-morning-clip and that I didn't mean to sound like an asshole. Oliver Daniel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted March 6, 2016 Super Members Share Posted March 6, 2016 Ok I got curious and spent the afternoon playing with in camera profiles (yes, staying home watching a dog that has to sitt still is boring). Any who, I haven't spent more than a few minutes grading the Slog2. But I have spent 0 seconds grading the H.265, its straight from the camera. NX500 Slog2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 29 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said: Any who, I haven't spent more than a few minutes grading the Slog2. But I have spent 0 seconds grading the H.265, its straight from the camera. NX500 Slog2 ...and still, in your Slog picture, the reds look blown out while the blues are muted, and the your skin has a slight magenta tint... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted March 6, 2016 Super Members Share Posted March 6, 2016 18 minutes ago, cantsin said: ...and still, in your Slog picture, the reds look blown out while the blues are muted, and the your skin has a slight magenta tint... Excactly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cantsin Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 What I recommend for shooting SLog2 is the following: - First set the camera to a standard or neutral picture profile. Use a grey card to set the white balance. - Now switch the picture profile to SLog2, Use the white balance values from above. - Quickly shoot a color chart (my recommendation: X-rite Color Checker Passport, since it is small and includes a grey card...) - Repeat the above (WB adjustment and color chart shooting) whenever light conditions change. - Import footage into Resolve. Use Resolve's color match feature - select X-rite as the color checker, select transform from SLog2 to Rec709, drag the color checker grid over the image of the color chart, click the match button - and your image will have correct colors. - Take PowerGrade snapshots of all color chart corrections you made, right-click the thumbnails and export the color corrections as 3D LUTs. Give them names that correspond to the scenes/locations you shot. - If you don't want to do your editing/color correction in Resolve, you can now continue to work in your NLE if it supports LUTs for color correction (such as Premiere CC with its Lumetri color module and FCPX with the Color Finale plug-in). - Import the SLog2 camera footage into your NLE and apply the LUTs for color correction. Here are two run-and-gun videos which I shot and edited this way; although I must say that I still wasn't happy with the level of color resolution/gradation. In the end, I'd rather have shot them with my BM Pocket... I ran into the blue highlight clipping issue of the A7s in both videos. btw. Well, I'm not complaining too much since I normally use the A7s as a stills camera, and it's fine for that if you shoot raw. Which, btw., can look great and shows you how much the codec and video signal processing degrades the sensor image. This is made from A7s high speed raw stills: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted March 6, 2016 Super Members Share Posted March 6, 2016 Or use a [Insert Camera Brand]. Just kidding Axel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 25 minutes ago, cantsin said: What I recommend for shooting SLog2 is the following: - First ... - Now .... - Quickly ... - Repeat ... - Import ... - Take ... - now continue ... - Import ... This simple, elegant workflow makes this small and lightweight camera the ideal companion wherever you go. Shield3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Kotlos Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 The more I read this thread the more I am led to believe that people just don't know how to use color profiles correctly. Comparing S-log2 straight from the camera to H265, complain that colors are not saturated accurately, or that is a painful workflow? Com'on you are better than that. Use a cine profile and adjust color phase/ color depth to your liking. Most people agree that straight out of the box Sony's colors are not that great. But if you fail to properly tune the color response IN CAMERA to your liking when dealing with any compressed 8bit codec, then that is not the fault of any camera. You don't want to do that? That's fine use a Canon or a Nikon nobody cares really, but agree at least that you are not willing to work with the camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted March 6, 2016 Super Members Share Posted March 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said: Comparing S-log2 straight from the camera to H265, complain that colors are not saturated accurately, or that is a painful workflow? Com'on you are better than that. Who did that? Im not sure you're getting the point of the complaints we have against Slog in comparison to C-Log, BMDFilm, heck even G-Log. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Kotlos Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Mattias Burling said: Who did that? Im not sure you're getting the point of the complaints we have against Slog in comparison to C-Log, BMDFilm, heck even G-Log. Maybe not but that's what I read here: 2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: Any who, I haven't spent more than a few minutes grading the Slog2. But I have spent 0 seconds grading the H.265, its straight from the camera. 1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said: 1 hour ago, cantsin said: ...and still, in your Slog picture, the reds look blown out while the blues are muted, and the your skin has a slight magenta tint... Excactly... 26 minutes ago, Axel said: This simple, elegant workflow makes this small and lightweight camera the ideal companion wherever you go. Again, Slog is only one part of the equation. Then there are color gammut, white balance (temp + tint), color phase, color depth just to name few, none of which are mentioned in any of your comparisons. Also we have to keep in mind that Slog2 is a more aggressive log than the clog and other Sony profiles (like cine 4 with cinema color gammut) are much closer. I might be wrong, but please show me a test that did all these things and concluded that its not possible to get a similar color response with Sony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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