Legal Advice Music Video

[enny]

Hi guys i shoot produced edited the whole 9 yards music video for free no money was exchanged or contract written for a local rock band ( i am making my portfolio and gaining experience). I delivered finished music video on time that i agree on resalable 3 weeks turnaround 3 reversions with a client ( they are not paying client but i am approaching this as professional and as paying client) and they love the finished video we all head input on the look and fell of the video. Lead singer of the group become  professional editor over night since he seen some videos on you tube how to use avid. I told him there is more to editing then just buttons its a craft/art. Other 3 member of the group love the final edit but this main guy is now asking me to give him raw files so he can make changes of course nicely and politely i told him no that was not the deal at all and they head enough time to change what ever they like to a point. 3 other band member are staying out of it

Before anything started i told them in the email that they will get 3 reversions full production editing, camera, lightning all the gear was provided by me and location but final edit is my to make and after final edit all the original files will be deleted and no money will be made of the original raw files sold ect so i can move on to next project.

He basically is saying that legally those files are his since he is in the picture. I told him under Canada law since contract was not made and nothing was written or specified those files are my to do what ever i wish plus i have the original email them agreeing on the terms i asked for.

My question is i have few more music videos coming up under same deal should i have some basic contract written up?

Any ideas or insight would help

 

Thanks guys

 

[Sebv]

 

If they want the files or make any other changes to your kind gesture, charge them for a full video shooting editing included, as for the footage, the shots that they are not in it, you can use it for what ever you want b-rolls ect...(exemption if they pay you dont use those shots afterwards)  but if they are in it i wouldn't use those shots, as if they own the footage they dont . next time ask more questions and to everyone that is involve,

or else it can go bad pretty quick

[Snowfun]

The definitive response needs to come from a lawyer well versed in Canadian law. But that notwithstanding I think the tale you tell is a reminder that things do go wrong with friendly arangements and it is always best to have something written down. I would be tempted to have a lawyer draw up a template contract/agreement for this type of work so that all parties know what is proposed. A little investment and thought in advance could save a lot of needless hassle.

[Mattias Burling]

At least in Sweden and US states like NY, he has nothing. Its your videos and you can do what ever you feel like. They saw the camera, they know they where being filmed. No judge would buy that you have unauthorized footage when they are smiling, singing and goofing of in front of the camera.

They own the rights to the music but never your video.

And if you give them the finished video, they cant change it either. You have the creative rights to the video.

At this point I would tell them that they have 3 options.

1. Let you finish the editing.

2. Buy the unedited footage from you, no edited sequences. You where planing on doing it for free,  so you can give it to them really cheap ($1000 or something like that).

3. You walk away and give them nothing.

Stay firm, you are the professional here. Stay calm and let them decide. 

 

[MattH]

He has no rights to that footage whatsoever, you own full rights.  If they disagree with that, tell them to talk to a solicitor. You dont have to do anything. Will he see a solicitor? will he fuck.  And if he does he will be humbled by what they tell him.

Very simple solution: Sell the raw files to him. (with written confirmation that you have full rights over your edit)   He obviously wants them, so charge him what you think he will be willing to pay.  Dont be stingy on yourself. ask for $500, $1000 or even more if they are rich. Alow them to bargain down.  In the long run, you aren't going to need raw files of a shitty rock band so why not.

[Snowfun]

I think it is important to focus on how to avoid this situation in the future not merely to be dogmatic about the current one. To the OP's credit, note that there is an acceptance that the band were allowing him to do this in order to gain experience and assemble a portfolio (and, thereby, build reputation). So the benefits flowed both ways. 

[Sebv]

Yes 500$ to a 1000$ is good, they liked the footage? they will pay...

[Jimmy]

I would probably be the bigger man here and just let them have the footage, with a written contract stating that you are allowed to release an edited version, for use in your portfolio/showreel.

It's a live and learn situation... You may as well come out of it with something to show for your hard work, even if the band release something you do not want your name associated with.

[bunk]

What Jimmy says.

$1000,- is a spit in the face for all the work you have done.

and make sure you get that written contract as they still hold the portrait rights. Yes it's your material but you can't do anything with it without their permission (not even on your showreel).

[AaronChicago]

2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

At least in Sweden and US states like NY, he has nothing. Its your videos and you can do what ever you feel like. They saw the camera, they know they where being filmed. No judge would buy that you have unauthorized footage when they are smiling, singing and goofing of in front of the camera.

They own the rights to the music but never your video.

And if you give them the finished video, they cant change it either. You have the creative rights to the video.

At this point I would tell them that they have 3 options.

1. Let you finish the editing.

2. Buy the unedited footage from you, no edited sequences. You where planing on doing it for free,  so you can give it to them really cheap ($1000 or something like that).

3. You walk away and give them nothing.

Stay firm, you are the professional here. Stay calm and let them decide. 

 

This.

Or as Jimmy said. Let them make their video but ask them to not put your name on it.

[Bioskop.Inc]

Yeah what Mattias said - if he wants to edit the footage himself, then he buys the footage from you.

I feel for you, I'm in a, sort of, similar situation. I've done a short doc for a group, done a few things for them & never had any problems. Their manager is a friend, known him for years and a really nice guy (no problems with him). The real problems came when the main guy decided he wanted to change the focus of the doc away from a "making of their first single" and towards a doc about him - no problems, just interviewed him, reused footage i already had and he loved it.

However, when it came to paying me i got the "Oh, sorry, we've spent the money we were going to use to pay you with!" and add insult to injury the cheeky fucker asked if he could have it for free, with the promise that he'd pay me later! Well we didn't sign a contract and I told him (to his face), no money no doc and if he didn't pay up soon i'd delete the whole thing!

Be tough with these people, I know its unpaid, but if they want to take the piss then make them pay or just simply keep the footage without them in and delet the project & move on.

If you've done a few things and are getting work, you need to start charging. It doesn't have to be loads, but it has to be something & always make a contract regardless of whether its paid work or not!

[sanveer]

4 hours ago, enny said:

Hi guys i shoot produced edited the whole 9 yards music video for free no money was exchanged or contract written for a local rock band ( i am making my portfolio and gaining experience). I delivered finished music video on time that i agree on resalable 3 weeks turnaround 3 reversions with a client ( they are not paying client but i am approaching this as professional and as paying client) and they love the finished video we all head input on the look and fell of the video. Lead singer of the group become  professional editor over night since he seen some videos on you tube how to use avid. I told him there is more to editing then just buttons its a craft/art. Other 3 member of the group love the final edit but this main guy is now asking me to give him raw files so he can make changes of course nicely and politely i told him no that was not the deal at all and they head enough time to change what ever they like to a point. 3 other band member are staying out of it

Before anything started i told them in the email that they will get 3 reversions full production editing, camera, lightning all the gear was provided by me and location but final edit is my to make and after final edit all the original files will be deleted and no money will be made of the original raw files sold ect so i can move on to next project.

He basically is saying that legally those files are his since he is in the picture. I told him under Canada law since contract was not made and nothing was written or specified those files are my to do what ever i wish plus i have the original email them agreeing on the terms i asked for.

My question is i have few more music videos coming up under same deal should i have some basic contract written up?

Any ideas or insight would help

 

Thanks guys

 

All your negotiations are by way of viva voce, and through e-mail (I am guessing). It was gratuitous, literally, since you weren't being paid (your portfolio being made, regardless). 

You own it, and you can do what you want with it.

I was in a similar quandary, not too long ago. The lead singer of a music video also edited it. She wasn't against someone editing it, but she edited it herself, and it was disastrous. Also, it wasn't graded or colour corrected, to make matters worse.

Anyways, if you can mildly bullshit him, and tell him to concentrate on his singing, it should help set perspective. Also, you could tell the band members that if the singer wants to do photography and video, and he may be wasting his time working for the band, and should probably join you as an assistant.

If you are going to shoot 2 more videos for them, then you can decide how you want to pursue this. You could get a contract drafted for the same. 

[DayRaven]

I know it's a pain, but I really think you could find trying to charge for the footage more hastle than it's worth. If he decides to lie to a court, you will be sorely lacking in evidence to back up your agreement, and it could easily go against you. Personally, I would either give him the footage, but only release it when he signs an agreement that you can use it for whatever you want, and agrees that your name goes nowhere near his edit OR give the other three the final edit, get them to sign the contract as it was set out verbally before releasing it to them and let them deal with this character.

I think for this situation, the three most important things are:

1) You retain permission to use the footage for yourself - that was your payment, in a sense

2) If he gets the raw files, he knows that your name is not put to his creations

3) To take away the experience, that whenever you turn on your camera on behalf of a client, you have their signiture on a clear - not necessarily lawyered document stating your responsibilities and the recompense you expect for the work

 

Good luck!

[Xavier Plagaro Mussard]

(Most) musicians are a PITA. You learned your lesson! Now do what feels better to you. If they give you money for the raw footage, take it. 

[enny]

Here is another kick they want to enter a CBC searchlight contest worth 50k its a long shoot if they win but if they do now there is money involved.

And CBC one of the rules i really don't like Your Submission will become the property of CBC and will not be returned to you i don't fell right about this and this By submitting your Submission (which includes Your Song and Your Video), you grant CBC a royalty-free, perpetual, non-exclusive, irrevocable, unrestricted, worldwide license to publish, reproduce and distribute your Submission in all media.

 

I am not sure is there is any cash prize most of the 50k is in equipment for the band and professional help which i really don't care about i mean if they get 50k in equipment that is fine by me but if there is money cash involved that is another story.

Ah for FUCK SAKE my first work has to turn in to lollapalooza

[enny]

1 hour ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

Yeah what Mattias said - if he wants to edit the footage himself, then he buys the footage from you.

I feel for you, I'm in a, sort of, similar situation. I've done a short doc for a group, done a few things for them & never had any problems. Their manager is a friend, known him for years and a really nice guy (no problems with him). The real problems came when the main guy decided he wanted to change the focus of the doc away from a "making of their first single" and towards a doc about him - no problems, just interviewed him, reused footage i already had and he loved it.

However, when it came to paying me i got the "Oh, sorry, we've spent the money we were going to use to pay you with!" and add insult to injury the cheeky fucker asked if he could have it for free, with the promise that he'd pay me later! Well we didn't sign a contract and I told him (to his face), no money no doc and if he didn't pay up soon i'd delete the whole thing!

Be tough with these people, I know its unpaid, but if they want to take the piss then make them pay or just simply keep the footage without them in and delet the project & move on.

If you've done a few things and are getting work, you need to start charging. It doesn't have to be loads, but it has to be something & always make a contract regardless of whether its paid work or not!

 

 

1 hour ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

It's a live and learn situation... You may as well come out of it with something to show for your hard work, even if the band release something you do not want your name associated with.

I would probably be the bigger man here and just let them have the footage, with a written contract stating that you are allowed to release an edited version, for use in your portfolio/showreel.

It's a live and learn situation... You may as well come out of it with something to show for your hard work, even if the band release something you do not want your name associated with.

Yeah what Mattias said - if he wants to edit the footage himself, then he buys the footage from you.

I feel for you, I'm in a, sort of, similar situation. I've done a short doc for a group, done a few things for them & never had any problems. Their manager is a friend, known him for years and a really nice guy (no problems with him). The real problems came when the main guy decided he wanted to change the focus of the doc away from a "making of their first single" and towards a doc about him - no problems, just interviewed him, reused footage i already had and he loved it.

However, when it came to paying me i got the "Oh, sorry, we've spent the money we were going to use to pay you with!" and add insult to injury the cheeky fucker asked if he could have it for free, with the promise that he'd pay me later! Well we didn't sign a contract and I told him (to his face), no money no doc and if he didn't pay up soon i'd delete the whole thing!

Be tough with these people, I know its unpaid, but if they want to take the piss then make them pay or just simply keep the footage without them in and delet the project & move on.

If you've done a few things and are getting work, you need to start charging. It doesn't have to be loads, but it has to be something & always make a contract regardless of whether its paid work or not!

That sound bad but i like your approach no money no honey right in the face. Did you write you won contract or did you pay for it

 

 

Since i don't have the money for a proper contract from a legal source is there a template that i can use here where it would say that i can use the final video for my portfolio.

 

sorry about the top i don't know what i did with merging

[Bioskop.Inc]

46 minutes ago, enny said:

That sound bad but i like your approach no money no honey right in the face. Did you write you won contract or did you pay for itSince i don't have the money for a proper contract from a legal source is there a template that i can use here where it would say that i can use the final video for my portfolio.

Where are you in the world, as each country will be different. Basically, if you're doing things for free, get consent forms signed & once they do that, you've got them - they've consented to you filming them & being able to do what the hell you want afterwards. This can be how Docs can twist people's words, because there's always a clause in there about editing, which is so ambiguous that it can mean that you can do what the hell you like (used to work for the BBC & that always made me laugh when people signed the form!).

Here is an English & an American resource:

Go down the page as it has some legal stuff (I know its not for music videos, but it'll give you an idea)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/filmnetwork/filmmaking/guide/before-you-start/checklist

http://www.desktop-documentaries.com/copyright-issues.html

In my case, I should have known better & am a stupid fucking idiot!!!!!! What i've been doing is making the video private (password protected), since i'm applying for jobs, and I just give them the link + password, whilst making it quite clear that it isn't finished yet & i'm still to be paid!

Quite frankly, if they want to enter it into a competition like that get them to sign something saying that you can still use the footage (regardless of what they do with it) & get them to pay you!

Remember, you've got the footage & video - so you're in control!

Also, meet them face-to-face, as it changes the dynamic completely & people behave like idiots when they're hiding behind e-mail etc. but they change when they're in front of you! Maybe bring a friend or two along, for moral support & tell them to chime in if they want - gang mentality!

[enny]

Just now, Bioskop.Inc said:

Where are you in the world, as each country will be different. Basically, if you're doing things for free, get consent forms signed & once they do that, you've got them - they've consented to you filming them & being able to do what the hell you want afterwards. This can be how Docs can twist people's words, because there's always a clause in there about editing, which is so ambiguous that it can mean that you can do what the hell you like (used to work for the BBC & that always made me laugh when people signed the form!).

Here is an English & an American resource:

Go down the page as it has some legal stuff (I know its not for music videos, but it'll give you an idea)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/filmnetwork/filmmaking/guide/before-you-start/checklist

http://www.desktop-documentaries.com/copyright-issues.html

In my case, I should have known better & am a stupid fucking idiot!!!!!! What i've been doing is making the video private (password protected), since i'm applying for jobs, and I just give them the link + password, whilst making it quite clear that it isn't finished yet & i'm still to be paid!

Quite frankly, if they want to enter it into a competition like that get them to sign something saying that you can still use the footage (regardless of what they do with it) & get them to pay you!

Remember, you've got the footage & video - so you're in control!

Also, meet them face-to-face, as it changes the dynamic completely & people behave like idiots when they're hiding behind e-mail etc. but they change when they're in front of you! Maybe bring a friend or two along, for moral support & tell them to chime in if they want - gang mentality!

I am in Canada i will try to get them to sign a consent form does a consent form has to be region specific

 

Thanks

[Phil A]

12 minutes ago, enny said:

I am in Canada i will try to get them to sign a consent form does a consent form has to be region specific

 

Thanks

It of course depends on your local law. That's why in the end most advice will turn towards "contact a local lawyer with experience in the field". What's valid in Canada might not match USA might not match Germany might not match you name it.

[Axel]

My favorite music video was one I did not shoot but edit, for free. It was a wild story provided by the band's lead singer. There were three days of shooting, around ten places with tons of actors and a big party in the end, tight schedule. Second and third morning I presented to them drafts from the intertwining little stories filmed so far, and they were enthusiastic. Of course I had spent some hours each night to edit that. Since it was a poetic story, I cut my own version, with much shortened story lines in dechronological order with occasional appearances of the singer. And a third version with the band more prominent. I made I-don't-know-how-many little changes (every single one well motivated) at the request of the band, and that took at least two weeks.

A month or so later, the singer phoned to tell me that the manager (a guy who had a camera himself and, I believe, Vegas) was not satisfied with it and that he had found another editor. That was a shock. It was really bitter. I became friend with the new editor, but his version wasn't approved either. I said to him, this is not going to happen to me again. 

Later that year, the manager called me to ask if I was *free* to edit a multicam session of a gig. I hang up and never heard of them again. 

Personality rights (and specifically the rights of one's own picture) are more or less the same in every civilized country. I can't publish any recognizable face if the owner forbids it. And even if posing in front of a camera implies the will to have the image published, I can't do it because of the music. Even the band can't allow me if they had already sold the rights.