Bioskop.Inc Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 40 minutes ago, enny said: I am in Canada i will try to get them to sign a consent form does a consent form has to be region specific Most established broadcasters will have this sort of stuff on their websites, it might take a little digging, but the consent forms will be there somewhere. quick google got me this: http://www.cifvf.ca/English/cifvf_forms_tools.html Do a few more searches & you'll get more examples. Also, do searches for other things related to your problem (just start the search with Canada). Bands can be real fuckers & more often than not you can find their stuck right up their backsides! Thanks for starting this thread enny, as it has motivated me to contacting the band that owe me money, in a last ditch attempt to get paid! Good Luck & don't feel afraid to just dump them - sometimes its just easier to just walk away and put it down to experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Punk Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 3 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said: Be tough with these people, I know its unpaid, but if they want to take the piss then make them pay or just simply keep the footage without them in and delet the project & move on. If you've done a few things and are getting work, you need to start charging. It doesn't have to be loads, but it has to be something & always make a contract regardless of whether its paid work or not! Amen to this. 20 minutes ago, Bioskop.Inc said: Remember, you've got the footage & video - so you're in control! Exactly. Bad things can happen when clarity and communication is not given across all concerned parties. Even if it's an unpaid project, there still needs to be clear deadlines agreed and understanding of what is to be delivered. Always keep control by retaining footage and submit viewing copies as low/SD resolution or with a fat 30% opacity watermark over the middle of the footage until you get paid. If you are to agree that you are to simply shoot and submit footage, get that in writing. Otherwise once you send the raw rushes, it is then up to trust that the person will pay you the agreed amount. Any verbal agreement that is made should at the very least be put into an email or writing - so there is some kind of record of what has been agreed to (legally binding or not) This will quickly prove if someone has gone against their word, straight up lied or not clarified conditions clearly. Luckily my memory is getting worse as i get closer to 40 so after I talk to people in person or over the phone - I ask them to put it into an email, which allows me to refresh my memory and creates a paper trail If you like. It allows easy tracking of progress and what has been agreed. Where applicable, get the relevant release forms/ permissions you need to cover your ass. As a photographer or videographer you simply need to ensure that you retain the rights to your raw images/ footage until you get paid or complete a submission to the terms of agreement to a contract. I'd say it is even more important to have written contracts between friends (especially when money is involved) - as that way, everyone knows where they stand - even if the project falls apart for whatever reason, you are more likely to remain friends afterwards, draw a line under it and put it down to bad luck. I'd much rather remain friends with someone if a project goes to the wall, and especially if it was out of their control. Over the years I've been duped out of about 6 grand by taking on projects from friends or for pitches - only to be given endless deferment promises, or simply no response at all after handing in an invoice. Those times I took the projects 'on trust' and the footage and final edits were sent before payment was received. Never again. DayRaven, bodressler, Xavier Plagaro Mussard and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enny Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 Thanks guys for all the info found some release forms what do you think about this sound straight to the point. And not to complicated to understand Photograph & Video Release Form I hereby grant permission to the rights of my image, likeness and sound of my voice as recorded on audio or video tape without payment or any other consideration. I understand that my image may be edited, copied, exhibited, published or distributed and waive the right to inspect or approve the finished product wherein my likeness appears. Additionally, I waive any right to royalties or other compensation arising or related to the use of my image or recording. I also understand that this material may be used in diverse educational settings within an unrestricted geographic area. Photographic, audio or video recordings may be used for the following purposes: conference presentations educational presentations or courses informational presentations on-line educational courses educational videos By signing this release I understand this permission signifies that photographic or video recordings of me may be electronically displayed via the Internet or in the public educational setting. I will be consulted about the use of the photographs or video recording for any purpose other than those listed above. There is no time limit on the validity of this release nor is there any geographic limitation on where these materials may be distributed. This release applies to photographic, audio or video recordings collected as part of the sessions listed on this document only. By signing this form I acknowledge that I have completely read and fully understand the above release and agree to be bound thereby. I hereby release any and all claims against any person or organization utilizing this material for educational purposes. Full Name___________________________________________________ Street Address/P.O. Box________________________________________ City ________________________________________________________ Prov/Postal Code/Zip Code______________________________________ Phone ___________________________ Fax _______________________ Email Address________________________________________________ Signature____________________________ Date____________________________ If this release is obtained from a presenter under the age of 19, then the signature of that presenter’s parent or legal guardian is also required. Parent’s Signature_____________________ Date____________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Policar Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 If it were a paying client, they'd almost definitely have final cut. And you'd have been fired by now. Treat this like a paying client, keep the directors' cut on your website/reel and meet them halfway with the changes (or ask to be paid for changes beyond the third revision). If it's great, great, you'll get high paying clients soon. Don't let a reputation for being difficult from a small local act hurt your potential for commercial success in greater arenas. Work this out amicably. Snowfun 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmcindie Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 6 hours ago, Policar said: If it were a paying client... But it isn't. The more they pay, the more you can give control to them. The less they pay, then you need to stay in control. It's a creative field, I will never edit anything for anyone for free, and then let them re-edit it. That only happens if I am paid. The more you pay, the more control I will give you. That keeps me creatively satisfied. I've done horrible shit music videos but if they pay me and ask for changes, so be it. I will happily oblige. The things is, it's hard to build a brand by doing shitty music videos, or you will be known as the "shitty music video" director haha. That's why actual high-priced directors will come with some provisions regarding the final cut because they have a brand to protect. In this case it might be wiser to just let go, do your director's cut, promote that and forget the one the band makes. Odds are the video is shit anyway. BUT make sure you get paid for the material. Don't just give it to them for free. I have some friends who have that same "laid back"- attitude concerning payment but the thing is... they will never get paid. One of them burned himself out doing music videos for free. So watch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgharding Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 How can someone getting all your work for free possibly own anything? Sounds like bullshit to me. You hold all the cards here: you've done all of it with your gear for nothing, so at least hold out to get what you want from it, and for God's sake don't be bullied by someone with too big an ego. Bioskop.Inc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 enny - show us the video (make it private/password protected), then at least we can advise you better. We won't hammer you, but it would be interesting - especially since you're doing it for free & i've got a feeling that in future you should be charging, even if it is a nominal fee. If you post yours, i'll post my first free music video, which was a complete nightmare as well! The problem with musicians is that they can be a pain, like a real pain. Nowadays everyone thinks that they can make a video/film (armchair directors), but in reality its a lot harder than that. The last live video that I made got a bit a criticism from the main guy, simply because he showed it to loads of people & a few of them had convinced him that the edits should be quicker. This was also coupled with the fact that he wasn't in it as much as the singer - starting to see the problem with working with bands?! I met him face to face and explained to him very nicely that this was the best edit possible - the main reason being that I got some great footage during the sound check & then during the gig, the lighting guys went crazy with strobe lighting, which ruined everything and made my job 10 times harder. He obviously came around to my way of thinking - I am very persuasive, in a nice way. Show us the video, as i'm almost 100% sure the singer wants to re-edit the footage so he's in it a lot more than the others! Meet them all, face-to-face and I think that they will be your allies (you said the others liked it) in convincing the troublesome one that you've done them a great video for free! Remember, you've done them a video for free! If after meeting them, he's still a pain, then you just look him in the eyes and tell him that you don't need the hassle and are walking away from it all. Axel and DayRaven 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enny Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 Hi guys thanks again for all the reply's and help Basically few night back i told him this is your final change 3th change but i am not going to change it so much where my edit or so called artistic ability is compromised and that he is not getting raw footage and if he wants the raw footage it will be 2300 he never mentioned raw footage again. I am being diplomatic here and calm i mean we all are just he is bit difficult. Here is a first edit i did in 4 hours. That i have on line PASS 905 All shoot on BMPCC some lights and yashica 23mm https://vimeo.com/158790423 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricardo_sousa11 Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 9 minutes ago, enny said: Hi guys thanks again for all the reply's and help Basically few night back i told him this is your final change 3th change but i am not going to change it so much where my edit or so called artistic ability is compromised and that he is not getting raw footage and if he wants the raw footage it will be 2300 he never mentioned raw footage again. I am being diplomatic here and calm i mean we all are just he is bit difficult. Here is a first edit i did in 4 hours. That i have on line PASS 905 All shoot on BMPCC some lights and yashica 23mm https://vimeo.com/158790423 Looking nice :D Some parts seem to be off-synch though, the first shot seems to be off synch looking at the drummer, I'd fix that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I did a vid for free 4 years ago. Spend a good amount of time working with the band in pre-pro, arranging things, doing it all for free. Because, hey, "fun" right? Also, one of the kids in the group was related to me, so I figured I'd help. Well, shoot day shows up and I'm the only one there on schedule building the set. They're hours late, about 10% of their promised background actors (their big responsibility) for the concert scene actually showed up, and I had to recruit a neighborhood kid to help me do lighting. Had to completely improvise on set to try and salvage something around the limitations of it all. When they watched the clip for the first time they only had criticisms because end result wasn't anything like we had talked about in pre-production. I laughed out loud at 'em. Not angry or anything, just had to tell 'em how things either work or don't work depending on collaboration. And 1st cut was the final cut. --And, oh, I could also tell you about the guy I traveled across the country to film who then never showed for the gig and wouldn't answer his phone. That was wonderful. Meh. Local indy bands. Whatyagonnado? The best bet it to treat it like a paying gig, including the up front paperwork/contracts/releases, and you give yourself a bit of a security net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enny Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 Just now, ricardo_sousa11 said: Looking nice :D Some parts seem to be off-synch though, the first shot seems to be off synch looking at the drummer, I'd fix that. Thanks off synch yes my first edit is just rough edit or template i do my audio on second then on 3th edit i fix it all make i tighter. Just now, fuzzynormal said: I did a vid for free 4 years ago. Spend a good amount of time working with the band in pre-pro, arranging things, doing it all for free. Because, hey, "fun" right? Also, one of the kids in the group was related to me, so I figured I'd help. Well, shoot day shows up and I'm the only one there on schedule building the set. They're hours late, about 10% of their promised background actors (their big responsibility) for the concert scene actually show up, and I had to recruit a neighborhood kid to help me do lighting. Had to completely improvise on set to try and salvage something around the limitations of it all. When they watched the clip for the first time they only had criticisms because end result wasn't anything like we had talked about in pre-production. I laughed out loud at 'em. Not angry or anything, just had to tell 'em how things either work or don't work depending on collaboration. And 1st cut was the final cut. --And, oh, I could also tell you about the guy I traveled across the country to film who then never showed for the gig and wouldn't answer his phone. That was wonderful. Meh. Local indy bands. Whatyagonnado? The best bet it to treat it like a paying gig, including the up front paperwork/contracts/releases, and you give yourself a bit of a security net. dudeeeeeeeee that is dam good that is like 30 times more work then me what part don't they like its great music video great set nice idea. I think when people are not paying they think they can change and do what ever they like but when you tell them they have to pay for extra changes then they agree and can live with original idea. But defiantly in my nest music video nest moth it will be all contract and put on paper. If they dont like it read the contract that is the only way to go free to paying Again great work man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, enny said: Thanks off synch yes my first edit is just rough edit or template i do my audio on second then on 3th edit i fix it all make i tighter. Looks fine enny & you did do more edits, so bound to be tighter. For a free video there's no problems with what you've done - i've seen worse videos that peole have actualy paid for (out of sync, shoddy camera work, bad CC etc...). So as promised, here's my first unpaid gig and as I said it was a complete nightmare, so much so I nearly walk off and only didn't cause it was a bit of a trek with all my gear. They were 3hrs late going on stage (not entirely their fault, but partly); The crowd that they so desperately wanted went away; The wide shot I told them I needed to get during the soundcheck never really happened (the 20/30secs I got is at the beginning); The stage was so small, it was laughable (they made it seem that they would be playing the main stage!); I wasn't allowed to get a live recording from the mixxing desk, as they were going to do that (they didn't). The only shots of them performing the song are the wide shot at the beginning, the drummer & the close up of the bass player. Everything else was taken from other songs & I recorded the singer another day in my mum's upstairs room & on her balcony! Enjoy, I didn't! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enny Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 Just now, Bioskop.Inc said: Looks fine enny & you did do more edits, so bound to be tighter. For a free video there's no problems with what you've done - i've seen worse videos that peole have actualy paid for (out of sync, shoddy camera work, bad CC etc...). So as promised, here's my first unpaid gig and as I said it was a complete nightmare, so much so I nearly walk off and only didn't cause it was a bit of a trek with all my gear. They were 3hrs late going on stage (not entirely their fault, but partly); The crowd that they so desperately wanted went away; The wide shot I told them I needed to get during the soundcheck never really happened (the 20/30secs I got is at the beginning); The stage was so small, it was laughable (they made it seem that they would be playing the main stage!); I wasn't allowed to get a live recording from the mixxing desk, as they were going to do that (they didn't). The only shots of them performing the song are the wide shot at the beginning, the drummer & the close up of the bass player. Everything else was taken from other songs & I recorded the singer another day in my mum's upstairs room & on her balcony! Enjoy, I didn't! that is still good work man i could not tell she was not on stage half the time power of editing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 20 minutes ago, enny said: that is still good work man i could not tell she was not on stage half the time power of editing Amen, brother! They paid after that video & apologised for the shitty filming day! How are you going to grade your video? I noticed that you cropped the sides, so are you going for a super8 type grading vibe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 1 hour ago, enny said: what part don't they like its great music video great set nice idea. Well, you don't see the 2 additional storytelling scenes that never made it into the shoot and tied together a few concepts --because so many people bailed on their responsibilities. Once that fell apart, I was forced to stretch stuff to cover those gaps, which sucked some of the sophistication right out of the production. The end result is basically just a glorified performance video. It was originally a bit more than that. Alas! Anyway, lay people don't exactly know what's involved to craft stuff, and no matter how much you pound it into their heads that A+B=C, they tend to think "C" can just somehow happen on it's own, like magic. Some get it. Some do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enny Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 25 minutes ago, Bioskop.Inc said: Amen, brother! They paid after that video & apologised for the shitty filming day! How are you going to grade your video? I noticed that you cropped the sides, so are you going for a super8 type grading vibe? Yes i will grade well not grade just use some colorista in premiere change a bit spend few hours and give it to them i am almost done. But my version i will use spend good time on color. Crop is just sd low quality that premiere did final is full HD And getting paid is nice and apology is nice to goes longggg way Just now, fuzzynormal said: Well, you don't see the 2 additional storytelling scenes that never made it into the shoot and tied together a few concepts --because so many people bailed on their responsibilities. Once that fell apart, I was forced to stretch stuff to cover those gaps, which sucked some of the sophistication right out of the production. The end result is basically just a glorified performance video. It was originally a bit more than that. Alas! Anyway, lay people don't exactly know what's involved to craft stuff, and no matter how much you pound it into their heads that A+B=C, they tend to think "C" can just somehow happen on it's own, like magic. Some get it. Some do not. LOL A+B=C, they tend to think "C. reminds me of that but my 16 year old cousin can do the editing its not that hard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricardo_sousa11 Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Doing some comment on the discussion about doing this type of stuff for free or not, I just finished my first music video, my first real one, and I would never do something like this for free. We underestimate the work that we will put into something like this, and more importantly, the creative aspect that we deliver. Bands can be tough to work with (also managers, I've had an awfull experience with a manager, when the actual artist loved the work I did), because they have very high expectations, and extremelly low budgets, and our job, is to direct them, and tell them why we cant do it for free and why we need money. Also, if they are paying, they would never get there late, because time is money. Not only it adds a responsbility to us (the filmmakers) but also for them, the clients. If I was doing something for free, and got the client to arrive hours late, I would leave and never look back again, im very protective of my own time, and I like to choose how I spend it and have my work appreciated. With all said, this was my musicvideo : Im totally looking forward into making another one, and more importantly, evolve. Bioskop.Inc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enny Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 Just now, ricardo_sousa11 said: Doing some comment on the discussion about doing this type of stuff for free or not, I just finished my first music video, my first real one, and I would never do something like this for free. We underestimate the work that we will put into something like this, and more importantly, the creative aspect that we deliver. Bands can be tough to work with (also managers, I've had an awfull experience with a manager, when the actual artist loved the work I did), because they have very high expectations, and extremelly low budgets, and our job, is to direct them, and tell them why we cant do it for free and why we need money. Also, if they are paying, they would never get there late, because time is money. Not only it adds a responsbility to us (the filmmakers) but also for them, the clients. If I was doing something for free, and got the client to arrive hours late, I would leave and never look back again, im very protective of my own time, and I like to choose how I spend it and have my work appreciated. With all said, this was my musicvideo : Im totally looking forward into making another one, and more importantly, evolve. That is some good work man. I understand you not doing it for free but how does one gets clients with no work to show or demo reel. What my plan is doing 3 music videos 3 personal projects and 3 spec commercials just to have something to show. And i am working with what i have Hwo did you get to do this music video did your demo get you there or contact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ricardo_sousa11 Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 4 hours ago, enny said: That is some good work man. I understand you not doing it for free but how does one gets clients with no work to show or demo reel. What my plan is doing 3 music videos 3 personal projects and 3 spec commercials just to have something to show. And i am working with what i have Hwo did you get to do this music video did your demo get you there or contact Thank you ! Im still struggling to get to bigger clients, even though i've had great feedback from previous work. Last year I did a small music video for a friend, it was literally small so I dont even count it, because there was no budget, and I wasnt taking it too serious, but I did it, and it was ok, at the time I was proud of it, of course, but quickly grew tired. Anyway, when we released the video, I sent a PM via Facebook (unprofessional, but oh well) with that video and a few others, unrelated to music, like events / shortfilms. And from like..10 artists, 8 responded and were interested, out of those 8, only one took the chance and decided to go ahead and do a video...Incredible person, since the first day he said he had 100% sure we would do something that he would love (and he did, and now hes looking forward to do another one). So, now that this one is released, I already have 1 new band that is interested in another music video, so its slowly picking up. My advice is (if it means anything, because im not really that experient in music videos) is, after you have 1 music video and 1 or 2 other works, make a portfolio and be pro-active, and send it to startup bands, that you think can afford a music video. You dont have to charge a lot for your first jobs, but please do get payed, it makes everyone care more...them because they are paying for your time, and you because you're getting payed for it. Also be honest...When I was talking to this client I said "For music videos, I havent done much (he had seen my previous, and totally loved it), so my price is according to what I think is fair in this stage and time." and he totally agreed based on that previous video, and other non-music related videos he had seen...he understood my style and how I did things, so it was great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bioskop.Inc Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 17 hours ago, enny said: Yes i will grade well not grade just use some colorista in premiere change a bit spend few hours and give it to them i am almost done. But my version i will use spend good time on color. My only advice is to give them the best possible version that you can. After all this is a showcase for your work & what you're capable of doing - its free, I know, but no point in shooting yourself in the foot at this point in time. Also, if you need more footage for your showreel etc. just do a little short nonsense film - the most hits i've had on Vimeo (apart from a 14sec ML ETTR vid with 24.5k hits) was from an Anamorphic lens test of me making my morning coffee (5K). And then don't do what I did & ignore the number of hits you have! I've just come to the realisation that I really need to start doing more to find work & have finally gotten off my arse! Got one new client already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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