BMMCC and URSA 4.6K finally shipping!

[Phil A]

11 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

The upgrade from the pocket to BMMCC is still pretty nice. Full sized HDMI, better battery, 60p. If you liked the BMPCC screen then I can see where it wouldn't make sense to upgrade.

But you lose the possibility to use it without an external monitor so you'll always have to rig it. I guess I could live with that. It will run you 1200 € in Germany while a used BMPCC is like 700€. I'm really torn to be honest.

I'm curious how the menu is implemented with only the few buttons, even less than the BMPCC. Is there any video available?

 

Edit: I think my feelings have to do with the fact that this is roughly identical to the BMPCC. A camera available since 2013. In the time between a lot of cameras have released in the price bracket or slightly above that are very attractive. I like the RAW and ProRes possibility... but you get no 120fps, you get no 2.5k or 4k, no weather sealing, no inbuilt NDs, etc.
I feel BMD is moving on in it's portfolio orientation and moving "up hill" with Ursa Minis. They are great but they're too big & heavy for what I'm interested in. I'm curious how they'll position themselfes for the future. The whole business behaviour in this case gave me a bad taste.

[Cinegain]

This is sad, guys. I'm afraid it's much like I said, guys...

Quote

On 26-2-2016 at 3:12 PM, Cinegain said:

[..]

I've been keeping my eye on the BMD Micro Cinema Camera as well, but unfortunately it's very BMD to have to wait for ages and we're not even sure if they pulled off the global shutter... maybe it's something they've said out to do as a goal and never quite reached it. The cameras they announce are more like predictions it seems... 'we think we'll be able to do this in due time, so just bear with us'. Well... NAB 2016 is just around the corner now... what's up B-M-to-da-Deeds!? Perhaps they did a complete redesign of the sensor and infrastructure, enabling finally both rolling and global shutter operation, the thing they were fighting with... as well as giving it a higher than FHD sensor now (2.5K/4K?). Maybe they'll even add a little screen, or a sweet accessory that will work together with the Video Assist like a charm, making it an ideal set-up...

[..] Again... maybe this is another testament that others out there are just trying too hard (perhaps even Blackmagic themselves with the URSA Mini?). [..]

But I was even too optimistic. I was hoping they would just scratch it and give us something even better; not worse. I thought that by now they had figured out how to be a legit, honest and capable business. But these are Kickstarter/Indiegogo-like practices. What the hell BMD... will they ever learn?

And then go over to all the phony damage control, making excuses and changing subjects ('but look, we worked so hard and Beta testers liked it, so we tested it ourselves and we were pleasantly suprised with how awesome, organic and filmic it is... we ended up liking it just as well', OMG, aren't you the first to test it? What the actual fuck? What kind of shop are they actually running over there?). I don't know. Right now I can only say 'bleep'. I believe I need a minute to cool down, although I should (and probably did) know any better than getting my hopes and excitement up like that.

-- Cooled down. Let's all move on.

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicursamini/gallery

Some beautiful shots in here

I'll agree, after viewing the footage it looks great. But I'm done with Blackmagic... for now. Personally, I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the Canon 1DX Mkii. I believe it will prove more versatile, and honestly just as cinematic, with great colors to boot instead of the somewhat muted Blackmagic look. And now that it is clear that the Global shutter is not going to happen, there seems little reason to roll the dice... yet again with Blackmagic. Especially when a perfectly viable and rock-solid alternative... that is weather sealed... and built like a tank with bet your life on it reliability will be out shortly. 

As Superman once said... "Too late Luther... too late". 

[AaronChicago]

14 minutes ago, Phil A said:

But you lose the possibility to use it without an external monitor so you'll always have to rig it. I guess I could live with that. It will run you 1200 € in Germany while a used BMPCC is like 700€. I'm really torn to be honest.

I'm curious how the menu is implemented with only the few buttons, even less than the BMPCC. Is there any video available?

 

Edit: I think my feelings have to do with the fact that this is roughly identical to the BMPCC. A camera available since 2013. In the time between a lot of cameras have released in the price bracket or slightly above that are very attractive. I like the RAW and ProRes possibility... but you get no 120fps, you get no 2.5k or 4k, no weather sealing, no inbuilt NDs, etc.
I feel BMD is moving on in it's portfolio orientation and moving "up hill" with Ursa Minis. They are great but they're too big & heavy for what I'm interested in. I'm curious how they'll position themselfes for the future. The whole business behaviour in this case gave me a bad taste.

The SmallHD 501/502 on top of the BMPCC is a dream. Super light, super sharp, and supports LUTs for BM film.

[Mattias Burling]

12 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

This is sad, guys. I'm afraid it's much like I said, guys...

But I was even too optimistic. I was hoping they would just scratch it and give us something even better; not worse. I thought that by now they had figured out how to be a legit, honest and capable business. But these are Kickstarter/Indiegogo-like practices. What the hell BMD... will they ever learn?

And then go over to all the phony damage control, making excuses and changing subjects ('but look, we worked so hard and Beta testers liked it, so we tested it ourselves and we were pleasantly suprised with how awesome, organic and filmic it is... we ended up liking it just as well', OMG, aren't you the first to test it? What the actual fuck? What kind of shop are they actually running over there?). I don't know. Right now I can only say 'Blackmagic Design, you guys friggin' suck balls... the saggy hairy kind'. I believe I need a minute to cool down, although I should (and probably did) know any better than getting my hopes and excitement up like that.

So dont buy it...

I dont get why people get so upset about delays from BMD, overheating Sony and stuff like this. 

Its shame, shure. But to get worked up about it, I dont get that. 

Ive said it before and its worth mentioning again. When you are mad the brain literally is loosing cells. So, is it worth self destruction just because a camera doesn't have a global shutter?

[Phil A]

8 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

The SmallHD 501/502 on top of the BMPCC is a dream. Super light, super sharp, and supports LUTs for BM film.

I know, that combination was actually my original plan. Add the Sidefinder and you're good to go.

There's an official post on the Blackmagic Forum that explains more about the reasons for canceling GS:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45691

I have to agree though, the communication shows the Ursa Mini 4.6k to be the new star of BMD, deservedly so. The BMMCC is just some random product and gets basically no mentioning at all.

[KrisAK]

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

So dont buy it...

I dont get why people get so upset about delays from BMD, overheating Sony and stuff like this. 

Its shame, shure. But to get worked up about it, I dont get that. 

Ive said it before and its worth mentioning again. When you are mad the brain literally is loosing cells. So, is it worth self destruction just because a camera doesn't have a global shutter?

I wish I could agree.

But I can't think of another line of products, in any industry, where companies have played so fast and loose with features, and where paying customers themselves apologize for the companies lack of follow through. It's almost a form of masochism, and I get the impression companies like Sony and BMD bank on this attitude to help them cover a multitude of engineering compromises.

But the real killer here, for me, is the BMMCC product web page I perused last April/May (after NAB, when the camera was announced.)

At some point, BMD product planners sat around a table designing that web page...which features to emphasize and specifications to call out...while apparently fully cognizant of the fact that the thing didn't even exist. That strikes me as a HUGE ethical failing on the part of BMD. (Sony never advertised that their cameras will run unhindered by heat, so credit where credit is due.)

The creative community has enough of an uphill battle that they shouldn't feel obliged to be jerked around like this.

 

 

[Cinegain]

7 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

So dont buy it...

I dont get why people get so upset about delays from BMD, overheating Sony and stuff like this. 

Its shame, shure. But to get worked up about it, I dont get that. 

Ive said it before and its worth mentioning again. When you are mad the brain literally is loosing cells. So, is it worth self destruction just because a camera doesn't have a global shutter?

Ha good one. Well, I wouldn't want to now. But that info wasn't availlable two days ago, so now I have to cancel the order I had put up because it had appeared 'In stock' the other day (with the 'as is' and advertised features listed there; btw, now it's back to '31+ days' again). But yeah, it's just swell to hear that probably the most important feature will be left out from the thing I just put money down for. People should rightfully so get excited, happy and thrilled by that. Toats ma goats. Lovely jovely. We should be glad that we have information now atleast right. Yay transparancy. We're all just people. We make mistakes. We're forgiving. We love to be happy and make eachother smile.

Nah. Getting upset for a minute? Sure that helps. Not like rage quitting or anything, but just outing your disappointment to get it out of the system, sure. Although it's not even so much about being destructive or how I feel. I hope they keep an eye on places like this and they should feel guilty and responsible for this mess-up. And if I'm not going to hold 'em accountable or make 'em feel like they should do better, who will and will they ever see the need to change? It's like parenthood. One will give the kid treats as a reward of changing behaviour, the other will give their kid a time-out (and then of course there's the controversial parent that spanks). Or puppy training dogs. You were never like: NO! DON'T DO THAT! BAD DOG! Aw... man. My favourite vase. Aw man... he got a hold of the trashbin and now the place is littered. You're 24/7 happy and cheerful? You can't always put on a happy voice and go 'awww... cute, here's a treat in the hope you'll won't do it again'. Well atleast I can't. I'm a human, not a robot (atleast 50% of me isn't ).

Sure, happiness is a choice and the cooldown minute which I mentioned has passed and I'm good though now that I have it out of the system. I'm not chronically mad, you know. But at times I'm happy to be mad.

[Mattias Burling]

15 minutes ago, KrisAK said:

I wish I could agree.

But I can't think of another line of products, in any industry, where companies have played so fast and loose with features, and where paying customers themselves apologize for the companies lack of follow through. It's almost a form of masochism, and I get the impression companies like Sony and BMD bank on this attitude to help them cover a multitude of engineering compromises.

But the real killer here, for me, is the BMMCC product web page I perused last April/May (after NAB, when the camera was announced.)

At some point, BMD product planners sat around a table designing that web page...which features to emphasize and specifications to call out...while apparently fully cognizant of the fact that the thing didn't even exist. That strikes me as a HUGE ethical failing on the part of BMD. (Sony never advertised that their cameras will run unhindered by heat, so credit where credit is due.)

The creative community has enough of an uphill battle that they should feel obliged to be jerked around like this.

 

 

So don't buy it

I fail to see the problem. I think Coke sucks, so I buy Pepsi. 

3 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Ha good one. Well, I wouldn't want to now. But that info wasn't availlable two days ago, so now I have to cancel the order I had put up because it had appeared 'In stock' the other day (with the 'as is' and advertised features listed there; btw, now it's back to '31+ days' again). But yeah, it's just swell to hear that probably the most important feature will be left out from the thing I just put money down for. People should rightfully so get excited, happy and thrilled by that. Toats ma goats. Lovely jovely. We should be glad that we have information now atleast right. Yay transparancy. We're all just people. We make mistakes. We're forgiving. We love to be happy and make eachother smile.

Nah. Getting upset for a minute? Sure that helps. Not like rage quitting or anything, but just outing your disappointment to get it out of the system, sure. Although it's not even so much about being destructive or how I feel. I hope they keep an eye on places like this and they should feel guilty and responsible for this mess-up. And if I'm not going to hold 'em accountable or make 'em feel like they should do better, who will and will they ever see the need to change? It's like parenthood. One will give the kid treats as a reward of changing behaviour, the other will give their kid a time-out (and then of course there's the controversial parent that spanks). Or puppy training dogs. You were never like: NO! DON'T DO THAT! BAD DOG! Aw... man. My favourite vase. Aw man... he got a hold of the trashbin and now the place is littered. You're 24/7 happy and cheerful? You can't always put on a happy voice and go 'awww... cute, here's a treat in the hope you'll won't do it again'. Well atleast I can't. I'm a human, not a robot (atleast 50% of me isn't ).

Sure, happiness is a choice and the cooldown minute which I mentioned has passed and I'm good though now that I have it out of the system. I'm not chronically mad, you know. But at times I'm happy to be mad.

I get your point

Personally I feel setting a good example and communication is the way to teach kids and dogs. Anger and punishment gets me/them nowhere. 
So in this example I would purchase a camera of a brand I thought did better. That stings more at BMD than forum posts.
In the end all they want to do is make money

[mercer]

5 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

So don't buy it

I fail to see the problem. I think Coke sucks, so I buy Pepsi. 

I don't think that's fair. A lot of people have been waiting for a promised product, perhaps even started planning projects based on these promised specs, or decided against other equipment because of BM's promised specs. Why should they be told how to feel when disappointment is forced upon them?

[Phil A]

Ignoring the fact of "promise & deliver", the read out time for the rolling shutter seems to be really, really good. I think people will still be happy with a lot of camera for a great price with the UM4.6k

[Bioskop.Inc]

Phew! No global shutter, so me don't have to buy the BMMCC! Couldn't careless about slow-mo & a few people have already proved that you can do this with the Pocket cam.

The 4.6K footage without GS looked pretty damn nice anyways & so I don't think its that big of a deal.

Now I suppose we can understand why it was taking them so long to release either cameras - they couldn't get GS to work. Maybe they'll figure it out & implement it in a FW upgrade later, which is the MO anyways.

This is going to save me money & now I can buy other stuff instead (jumps fpor joy!)

[Cinegain]

21 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

So don't buy it

I fail to see the problem. I think Coke sucks, so I buy Pepsi. 

I get your point

Personally I feel setting a good example and communication is the way to teach kids and dogs. Anger and punishment gets me/them nowhere. 
So in this example I would purchase a camera of a brand I thought did better. That stings more at BMD than forum posts.
In the end all they want to do is make money

It's the balance in the universe, though. Yin & Yang and all that stuff. There can't be just positive. For every you, there's a me. And that's ok. Just to me, turning a blind eye to only see and acknowledge the positive to me is not the way to go as it leaves you with a blind eye... I'd rather have both my eyes functioning just fine and see the good and the bad. That's kind of the beauty of it. No highs without the lows. Doesn't have to mean you're stuck in the lows. Maybe it just means that life's like a box of chocolates, you never know what you gonna get... and there's ones you love, there's ones you spit out and say it tastes gnarly. Don't worry, I'm not planning on putting a gnarly tasting chocolate against my tastebuds again.

[dhessel]

I had the Mini on pre-order but cancelled it back in september and depending on how things turn out in the next 24 hours today will by another example of why. It has nothing to do with the lack of GS, but not being able to deliever on what they advertised is pretty unprofessional. The loss of GPS in September and now the loss of GS in March make me believe that BM had to know when the announced the shipping date for July that they knew they would never be able to make it, the camera was obviously so far away from being ready to ship, hardware had not even been finalized yet. I felt like they were intentionally being deceptive so I cancelled my order and moved on, just my oppinion obviously I have no proof of this.

However, they did say many times that previous URSA owners would be getting their turrets first and now here we are and there is no mention of it whatsoever from them. It appears that they have scrapped that promise and are going to ship the mini first. I imagine the mini is their big marketing camera and with it being so overdue they were not going to wait any longer so it is looking like they are going to screw over the URSA owners and those who purchase the URSA at nab last year when they announced the 4.6k sensor and dropped the price.

Sadly I just don't think that BM in an honest company, so I will be taking my business elsewhere.

[Geoff CB]

I know many fellow filmmakers that were waiting and decided on this 4.6K just for the global shutter feature. They should be rightfully angry that BM lied about this feature, wasting there time and money. Even if they can "just not buy it" it's still horrible business practice, and they should rightfully be taken to task for this so it never happens again. Like I said in my previous post, their product launches in the future are forever tainted by this. They announce some incredible new feature in their next camera and the defaul answer from anyone with intelligence will be "I'll believe it when I see it BM."

[Mattias Burling]

22 minutes ago, mercer said:

I don't think that's fair. A lot of people have been waiting for a promised product, perhaps even started planning projects based on these promised specs, or decided against other equipment because of BM's promised specs. Why should they be told how to feel when disappointment is forced upon them?

I can buy a lot of arguments but not this.
If any shooter that works under me (I'm a producer) ever plans a project with gear not yet released an thoroughly tested, I will fire them.
You can make misstakes, drop the camera, be late, forget to white balance, etc. Sh.. happens. But you do not pull stunts like that without a 100% solid Plan-B.

[DayRaven]

16 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

They announce some incredible new feature in their next camera and the defaul answer from anyone with intelligence will be "I'll believe it when I see it BM."

To be fair, that should always be the case when dealing with marketing for an unreleased product

[Mattias Burling]

7 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

To be fair, that should always be the case when dealing with marketing for an unreleased product

Exactly, its not like BMD is the only company that does this (Samsung, Fuji, Red, etc).
And specially BMD that does it every year, over and over. I have no sympathy for people who put their eggs in their basket when they have done the same thing 3 years in a row (I can of course excuse those who never heard of them before, but still, buy something so expensive without research... not smart imo).

And Im a total fanboy. I would love an URSA mini 4K. Ive had 8 total BMD cameras and will over the years buy 8 more. But when NAB comes and they announce something new. I will just keep my cool and say, "sounds good, I will look into it when it is within arms reach, in a store, for me to buy". Just like I did last year.

[Cinegain]

21 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

I can buy a lot of arguments but not this.
If any shooter that works under me (I'm a producer) ever plans a project with gear not yet released an thoroughly tested, I will fire them.
You can make misstakes, drop the camera, be late, forget to white balance, etc. Sh.. happens. But you do not pull stunts like that without a 100% solid Plan-B.

Ah! There he is. Sounds like you'd be pretty upset if someone would do that. See. There's a realist in all of us after all.

The order is cancelled. They said the 'In stock' wasn't so 'In stock' after all (as per my suspicion, but you know, I was thinking overly positive at the time ).

That chocolate has a pretty bad lingering aftertaste that is a little hard to get rid of... but I was already planning on treating my tastebuds to something nice, which I bet will taste the more sweeter because of it (something with andy lee's excitement and Swedish prices, and perhaps something with a letter and a number)! You're right, you don't like the taste, don't put it in your mouth. But you need a sec to spit it out and get rid of the taste first when you find something you don't like.

Quote

just keep my cool

Yes, but then you miss out on the happy excitement. If it turns out not to be exciting at all, you can still be happy, because you choose to, right?

[Mattias Burling]

3 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Ah! There he is. Sounds like you'd be pretty upset if someone would do that.

Nope, not angry and screaming. That gets us nowhere. I would be sad to have to let them go. 
And I think you totally misunderstood me. I never said "don't get angry". I said, don't get angry and waste your brain cells on stupid, non meaningful things like cameras and global shutters. 
Syria, Pollution, Rapists, they are reasons to get mad. Not batteries or placements of ISO buttons

5 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

That chocolate has a pretty bad lingering aftertaste that is a little hard to get rid of... but I was already planning on treating my tastebuds to something nice, which I bet will taste the more sweeter because of it (something with andy lee's excitement and Swedish prices, and perhaps something with a letter and a number)! You're right, you don't like the taste, don't put it in your mouth. But you need a sec to spit it out and get rid of the taste first when you find something you don't like.

Cool, because if you ordered from Cyberphoto you will get very sweet chocolate indeed. Last time I ordered from hem it was a Twix bar.