Kinefinity 2016 Nian new product launches

[Emanuel]

Let's balance positions, OK? ;-)

[deszmodo]

 

[MattH]

15 hours ago, Hans Punk said:

Being sceptical in the face of the unknown is often understandable but should not be considered as informed or even an intelligent opinion on anything. Until the facts are known, It is no less value than speculation. It is true that many tech giants would not dream to let a pre-release product hit the press without it in immaculate, production ready apperance, with every single aspect being identical to the final shipping model. But this company is not a giant and is still relatively 'unknown' to the masses even though they have been shipping working cameras for a few years to many happy customers. I think the issue that a few people may have is 'burnt finger syndrome' - where it's easy to identify a less familiar company  (or even better a 'foreign' company) that reveals a promise that many would assume is too good to be true, and are looking at the first sign to pick things apart. It's understandable to a certain degree, but remember this company has a track record of delivering cameras within a couple of months (not several months) of them being announced. This time of year when NAB is buzzing is where everything is a bombardment of crap to process all at once, having any solid knowledge or informed opinion on anything until anything actually ships is like listening to a group of old women gossiping. Let the dust settle, keep a healthy open mind, make an informed opinion before thinking to put some serious dough down on ordering anything expensive.

In the face of the unknown, being sceptical is the ONLY intelligent position. Only with knowledge can you make accurate conclusions.  That is my counter opinion.

[Hans Punk]

Being sceptical is an opinion, not an inherent intelligent/ informed position in its self. An intelligent/informed position would be garnered by information, experience or knowledge. Being sceptical is often healthy and logical, but should never be regarded as an informed opinion...it is simply an opinion without validation and should be open to challenge. If negative and related past experience is a factor in forming a sceptical opinion - that's different, but what we are talking about here is scepticism formed from 'glass half empty' opinions drawn from trivial assumptions. In the context of NAB it could be argued it 'intelligent' to be just as sceptical of everything new that is announced - until it physically ships. Many products from past NAB shows have never materialised in the real world - or with the identical specs as its demonstration model, it's very unfair to single out a single company and slam it's whole quality control standards are sub-par and that they are not bring their 'A-game' because a pre-production model of a camera has free-rotating button caps! (which incidentally has already been confirmed as only an issue that is with the pre-prod cameras). Not having a go at anyone here for having an opinion, I have plenty of them...they are equally valid and invalid as anyone else's.

[Mattias Burling]

1 hour ago, MattH said:

In the face of the unknown, being sceptical is the ONLY intelligent position. Only with knowledge can you make accurate conclusions.  That is my counter opinion.

Now its getting philosophical here but imo, being skeptical is absolutely NOT the "only" intelligent position. In fact it isn't a very good one in most circumstances (imo).
I would suggest being Agnostic is the way to go   

[MattH]

7 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Now its getting philosophical here but imo, being skeptical is absolutely NOT the "only" intelligent position. In fact it isn't a very good one in most circumstances (imo).
I would suggest being Agnostic is the way to go   

How would you differentiate scepticism and agnosticism? I would think they are close enough in meaning (especially in this context)to be synonyms. But perhaps you know more than myself.

21 minutes ago, Hans Punk said:

Being sceptical is an opinion, not an inherent intelligent/ informed position in its self. An intelligent/informed position would be garnered by information, experience or knowledge. Being sceptical is often healthy and logical, but should never be regarded as an informed opinion...it is simply an opinion without validation and should be open to challenge. If negative and related past experience is a factor in forming a sceptical opinion - that's different, but what we are talking about here is scepticism formed from 'glass half empty' opinions drawn from trivial assumptions. In the context of NAB it could be argued it 'intelligent' to be just as sceptical of everything new that is announced - until it physically ships. Many products from past NAB shows have never materialised in the real world - or with the identical specs as its demonstration model, it's very unfair to single out a single company and slam it's whole quality control standards are sub-par and that they are not bring their 'A-game' because a pre-production model of a camera has free-rotating button caps! (which incidentally has already been confirmed as only an issue that is with the pre-prod cameras). Not having a go at anyone here for having an opinion, I have plenty of them...they are equally valid and invalid as anyone else's.

Scepticism is a concept regarding how to think about things.  It isnt an opinion.

[Mattias Burling]

23 minutes ago, MattH said:

How would you differentiate scepticism and agnosticism? I would think they are close enough in meaning (especially in this context)to be synonyms. But perhaps you know more than myself.

Dont know more than you, because Im agnostic.

Sceptical to me means being negative. If you where to bet money you would think that they will fail.

Agnostic is not knowing. Keeping a neutral stance because you dont know yet. It might be good or bad. This tends to prevent self fulfilling prophecies, good and bad. 

In my opinion a neutral stance on life will open more doors than a negative

 

[MattH]

2 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Dont know more than you, because Im agnostic.

Sceptical to me means being negative. If you where to bet money you would think that they will fail.

Agnostic is not knowing. Keeping a neutral stance because you dont know yet. It might be good or bad.

In my opinion a neutral stance on life will open more doors than a negative

 

I thought so.

You are applying the subjective connotation of negativity, when in fact there is no intrinsic link to negativity in the definition or theory of scepticism itself.

[Mattias Burling]

14 minutes ago, MattH said:

I thought so.

You are applying the subjective connotation of negativity, when in fact there is no intrinsic link to negativity in the definition or theory of scepticism itself.

In philosophy "skepticism" is doubt. "Agnostic" means not knowing.
In this context I would definitely put a negative association to "Doubting" the camera and company.
One does what one wants, I just objected against being unintelligent for being a problem solver instead of seeker 

Ok, Im sorry for adding to the derail of a thread. I will stop now. so it can get back on topic.
I will just paste in the stuff bellow that was pretty much the first hit on google, so I'm definitely agonistic about its accuracy  

"The Agnostic is generally defined as someone that wants to see some kind of personal first hand experience or proof before he makes a decision. He does not believe we can actually know the will or existence of a deity if they should exist.
Wikipedia's definition...
In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.

The Skeptic is someone that sits on the fence and is hyper critical of any one view being championed above others because none of the other views can state with certainty they are right.
Wikipedia's definition..
Skepticism or scepticism has many definitions, but generally refers to any questioning attitude towards knowledge, facts, or opinions/beliefs stated as facts, or doubt regarding claims that are taken for granted elsewhere."

Out.

[DBounce]

15 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

In philosophy "skepticism" is doubt. "Agnostic" means not knowing.
In this context I would definitely put a negative association to "Doubting" the camera and company.
One does what one wants, I just objected against being unintelligent for being a problem solver instead of seeker 

Ok, Im sorry for adding to the derail of a thread. I will stop now. so it can get back on topic.
I will just paste in the stuff bellow that was pretty much the first hit on google, so I'm definitely agonistic about its accuracy  

"The Agnostic is generally defined as someone that wants to see some kind of personal first hand experience or proof before he makes a decision. He does not believe we can actually know the will or existence of a deity if they should exist.
Wikipedia's definition...
In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.

The Skeptic is someone that sits on the fence and is hyper critical of any one view being championed above others because none of the other views can state with certainty they are right.
Wikipedia's definition..
Skepticism or scepticism has many definitions, but generally refers to any questioning attitude towards knowledge, facts, or opinions/beliefs stated as facts, or doubt regarding claims that are taken for granted elsewhere."

Out.

So Kinefinity are gods? I remain skeptical:-)

[IronFilm]

Wow this went off topic.....  but in an entertaining way :-)

[MattH]

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

In philosophy "skepticism" is doubt. "Agnostic" means not knowing.
In this context I would definitely put a negative association to "Doubting" the camera and company.
One does what one wants, I just objected against being unintelligent for being a problem solver instead of seeker 

Ok, Im sorry for adding to the derail of a thread. I will stop now. so it can get back on topic.
I will just paste in the stuff bellow that was pretty much the first hit on google, so I'm definitely agonistic about its accuracy  

"The Agnostic is generally defined as someone that wants to see some kind of personal first hand experience or proof before he makes a decision. He does not believe we can actually know the will or existence of a deity if they should exist.
Wikipedia's definition...
In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas a theist and an atheist believe and disbelieve, respectively. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify the belief that deities either do or do not exist.

The Skeptic is someone that sits on the fence and is hyper critical of any one view being championed above others because none of the other views can state with certainty they are right.
Wikipedia's definition..
Skepticism or scepticism has many definitions, but generally refers to any questioning attitude towards knowledge, facts, or opinions/beliefs stated as facts, or doubt regarding claims that are taken for granted elsewhere."

Out.

Thankyou for agreeing. As you say youself, you put a negative association to scepticism. It isn't in the definition itself. I don't apply a negative association to it in the slightest. I'll take the wikipedia description. The one in bold is so negatively opinionated it looks like it was written by a 13 year old. I'm surprised you included it.

As for getting the toppic back on track:

Pending further relevant information, I will remain sceptical/agnostic as to whether kinfinity can produce, within the scheduled timeframe, a camera system with a build quality that is worth 6000 to 9000 dollars that doesn't have buttons that spin in their sockets.

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Hmm so many questions missing from that live show interview.  And they really need someone who understands and speaks English better.  Only thing I got from that interview was that the 5k sensor does use dual-gain amplifiers.  Sadly Rodney Charters didn't understand the difference between dual-gain pathways and dual-exposure HDR as is a common confusion and the Kinefinity guy didn't seem to fully understand the confusion.  My guess would be that the global shutter mode can only use one gain amplifier and is more greatly limited in DR by the ADC as most single-amp cameras are, but it should still be able to take advantage of the sensitivity of the sensor by applying more gain as long as hardware gain is adjustable.  Gonna have to put in a pre-order, at least the $150 payment is refundable and will give me me a $500 discount if I decide to stick with it.

[DayRaven]

MattH, no-one has any issues with your skepticism, in fact I think we all really rather agree that it is sensible to wait until we can see the results of the camera, and it's support network. DBounce however was not being skeptical. His gambit is that Kinefinity are conterfeiting prores, as evidenced by his link to a federal counterfeiting website, on the basis that they are a chinese company. "China doesn't need permission do they?" When everyone pointed out that his evidence was shaky, and the full picture indicates that they are in a convoluted process of getting the licence legally, (which has now been confirmed to be the case by Kinefinity) he went quiet. that was until he saw the rotated buttons, when this became evidence of their poor quality control. In my opinion that's just as bad as not being skeptical - either being a fan or a hater of an unreleased product are just as bad as each other.

If I were to apply skeptical thinking to DBounce, I would suggest he has been prone to jump to conclusions, and make somewhat xenophobic statements, thus when he states an opinion about a chinese company, my skepticism tells me not to take his opinion at face value and triple check his evidence.

We all know you don't get to see Apples, Nikons, Canons or Samsungs  pre-production models, they employ consultants and maybe even have departments dedicated  to hiding pre-production electronics whilst they are being tested at that level. Remember the preproduction iPhone that someone snapped being used on a train? It looked like crap and they got a roasting in the clickbait press for it. Try to find that picture now. They pursued every copy of that photo that was published with c&d letters, because they know it looked like crap. Is that really what we want kinefinity to be doing, because that little skeptical part of me tells me that if DBounce found out that Kinefinity was trying to hide their pre-production flaws, he would be presenting this as evidence that they couldn't be trusted.

[DBounce]

46 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

MattH, no-one has any issues with your skepticism, in fact I think we all really rather agree that it is sensible to wait until we can see the results of the camera, and it's support network. DBounce however was not being skeptical. His gambit is that Kinefinity are conterfeiting prores, as evidenced by his link to a federal counterfeiting website, on the basis that they are a chinese company. "China doesn't need permission do they?" When everyone pointed out that his evidence was shaky, and the full picture indicates that they are in a convoluted process of getting the licence legally, (which has now been confirmed to be the case by Kinefinity) he went quiet. that was until he saw the rotated buttons, when this became evidence of their poor quality control. In my opinion that's just as bad as not being skeptical - either being a fan or a hater of an unreleased product are just as bad as each other.

If I were to apply skeptical thinking to DBounce, I would suggest he has been prone to jump to conclusions, and make somewhat xenophobic statements, thus when he states an opinion about a chinese company, my skepticism tells me not to take his opinion at face value and triple check his evidence.

We all know you don't get to see Apples, Nikons, Canons or Samsungs  pre-production models, they employ consultants and maybe even have departments dedicated  to hiding pre-production electronics whilst they are being tested at that level. Remember the preproduction iPhone that someone snapped being used on a train? It looked like crap and they got a roasting in the clickbait press for it. Try to find that picture now. They pursued every copy of that photo that was published with c&d letters, because they know it looked like crap. Is that really what we want kinefinity to be doing, because that little skeptical part of me tells me that if DBounce found out that Kinefinity was trying to hide their pre-production flaws, he would be presenting this as evidence that they couldn't be trusted.

Well that's a mighty wordy assessment from someone that's never met me.  Fyi: the only evidence I needed that they... Kinefinity was, shall we say "stretching the truth, was their claims to be prores approved, when in fact they were not. Apple does not list them on their website. Once I know that a company has lied, we'll my skepticism increases. Especially when I'm considering dropping $9k with them.  Your free to be as trusting as you like with your cash,  and I will do likewise. 

And as for showing unfinished product,  it's poor form.  Making claims when you don't yet have the goods is duplicitous. Yeah, we can expect global shutter... I've heard that one before.  And now we learn they have not actually figured that part out yet.  Hmmmm... ? Say what you will about Apple, Samsung and all the other major players, but they didn't get to be major players because they didn't know what they were doing.  

There's a word for products that promise the world, but lack those key features that they promised. .. VAPORWARE.

I'll believe it when I see it.  Those with a well established reputations need prove less upfront. But Kinefinity, Blackmagic etc... are not there yet. 

Nuff said.

[andrgl]

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[Oliver Daniel]

I'm really surprised that barely any of the major blogs are posting articles about the Kinefinity Terra - especially as it's the ONLY cinema camera at NAB with a lot of promise. 

I did notice that Cinema5d reported on the Terra shortly after it was announced, but they have pulled the article and not mentioned it since. 

[Don Kotlos]

39 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I'm really surprised that barely any of the major blogs are posting articles about the Kinefinity Terra - especially as it's the ONLY cinema camera at NAB with a lot of promise. 

I did notice that Cinema5d reported on the Terra shortly after it was announced, but they have pulled the article and not mentioned it since. 

Yeah it's funny that Cinema5D has an article on the Craft Camera that is just a design concept but not for the Terra that actually works. 

Good thing that newsshooter had a somewhat extensive coverage.  

[DBounce]

Yeah, I recall seeing the article on Cinema5d, strange that they decided to pull it.

[Oliver Daniel]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Yeah, I recall seeing the article on Cinema5d, strange that they decided to pull it.

I hope there's no sponsor politics involved, that would be a shame. Although very unlikely.

Even EOSHD hasn't bothered yet, and this blog is usually very informative about Kine cameras. 

Anyway, I hope Kinefinity deliver this product as advertised. This and the FS5 + 7Q are on my A-cam watch list.