Panasonic GX80 - 5 Axis IBIS works on video!

[Don Kotlos]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

If I can use my c-mount lenses and get 5 axis... that would be wicked!!!

Yeah I have been having a lot of fun with my c-mount lenses with IBIS and 4K recording with the A7rii. (here)

Hopefully GX80 does sensor stabilization with adapted lenses and allows some zoom-in function when c-mount lenses are used. 

1 hour ago, mercer said:

The lack of a microphone input does suck, but with a simple L-bracket, one of those new, tiny juiced link recorders and a rode micro, you can have a small and simple, one man band, run & gun, footprint.

The Little DARling does look very nice, syncing in post not so much  . I rather wait for the GH5 which wouldn't be larger if you count in the extra recorder. 

[mercer]

5 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

Yeah I have been having a lot of fun with my c-mount lenses with IBIS and 4K recording with the A7rii. (here)

Hopefully GX80 does sensor stabilization with adapted lenses and allows some zoom-in function when c-mount lenses are used. 

The Little DARling does look very nice, syncing in post not so much  . I rather wait for the GH5 which wouldn't be larger if you count in the extra recorder. 

I remember that post. I'll have to give it another read. With my G7, I have been able to get full coverage with a 12.5mm f1.4 Canon TV lens and near full coverage with my Cosmicar 12.5mm f1.9. I assume the GX85 will have the same crop as the G7, so it shouldn't be an issue. Of course, I would love to be able to use a 9mm Fujinon or a 10mm Kern...

That's true, once you add the L-bracket, the little darling and rode micro, it would probably be close to the size of the GH5, just a grand cheaper. I wonder if Panasonic will upgrade the GX8's firmware to include the IBIS?

Also the lack of CineLikeD with the GX85 is a little disheartening, but at least it will force me to use Natural instead of changing my settings every other week. 

[Don Kotlos]

28 minutes ago, mercer said:

I remember that post. I'll have to give it another read. With my G7, I have been able to get full coverage with a 12.5mm f1.4 Canon TV lens and near full coverage with my Cosmicar 12.5mm f1.9. I assume the GX85 will have the same crop as the G7, so it shouldn't be an issue. Of course, I would love to be able to use a 9mm Fujinon or a 10mm Kern...

Yeah plenty of these lenses have very large image circles that will work. Also I just found out from a post in dpreview that in body stabilization works with adapted lenses. 

28 minutes ago, mercer said:

 I wonder if Panasonic will upgrade the GX8's firmware to include the IBIS?

I wish cause that tilting EVF and the articulate LCD are really nice... 

28 minutes ago, mercer said:

Also the lack of CineLikeD with the GX85 is a little disheartening, but at least it will force me to use Natural instead of changing my settings every other week. 

I get that. Switching between Cine/slog modes in the A7rii is getting out of hand especially when it is time to grade all of them together.

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Don Kotlos said:

Also I just found out from a post in dpreview that in body stabilization works with adapted lenses. 

Great, thanks for the confirmation!!!

1 hour ago, Don Kotlos said:

I get that. Switching between Cine/slog modes in the A7rii is getting out of hand especially when it is time to grade all of them together.

Yeah, but you probably have a technical or creative reason for it... I just keep changing my mind which I like better every week. 

Anyway, every time I read something more about the GX85, the more I want one... I can throw my G7 on sticks to get a two shot and then get some over the shoulders with the GX85. 

I'm going to run some tests with the FZ300's 5-axis 1080p mode to try and get an idea how good their system is. To be honest, the lens' OIS 4K mode is pretty effin solid, so I can only imagine the full 5-axis  should be pretty damn calm... Maybe even tripod level. 

[fuzzynormal]

Based on my experience with the EM5II, I plan on continually shooting exclusively with 5axis cams. I've developed a style with them that I really like. 

To shoot documentary productions, I mount a wireless receiver to my EM5II and record audio straight to the camera. 

I'd have a hard time giving that up and then dealing with hours of b-roll sync in post.

Still, with 4k, it's probably worth the compromise.  Also, this is a $800 camera! Gol'Dang this stuff is so cheap now. 

Anyway, I'm in Japan at the moment, maybe I'll pop into a Bic and see if they got one on display. Give it a try and see how it measures up to what I'm used to with the EM5II. 

[mercer]

36 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Based on my experience with the EM5II, I plan on continually shooting exclusively with 5axis cams. I've developed a style with them that I really like. 

To shoot documentary productions, I mount a wireless receiver to my EM5II and record audio straight to the camera. 

I'd have a hard time giving that up and then dealing with hours of b-roll sync in post.

Still, with 4k, it's probably worth the compromise.  Also, this is a $800 camera! Gol'Dang this stuff is so cheap now. 

Anyway, I'm in Japan at the moment, maybe I'll pop into a Bic and see if they got one on display. Give it a try and see how it measures up to what I'm used to with the EM5II. 

Report back if you do. 

[fuzzynormal]

Stopped in the local camera shop today. Not on display yet. Will try in the future though. What I'm seeing from the online clips looks promising. 

[natluma]

Hey there guys, been a lurker for awhile but decided to chime in on this conversation. I actually had an opportunity to play around with a GX80 (and the PL 100-400) today at my local camera store. They had a rep there who happened to have a copy on hand and he let me use it.

I was really impressed with the Dual IS in 4k. Its stabilization is as good as the EM5 II but with the added benefit of resolution. The story wasn't as good when I mounted my Oly 12-40 on it however. There was some sway and shake in the footage when handholding but it didn't look too severe. It would probably be easily stabilized in post.

EDIT: Also, he told me that IBIS stabilized video will not be coming to the GX8 via firmware at all. The reason he gives is that the IBIS in the GX8 is spring-based and therefore not compatible with video while the GX80's is electromagnetic.

[ntblowz]

So GX80 IBIS is actually more like Sony which is electromagnetic while GX8 is like Olympus one which are spring based

[Andrew Reid]

Olympus is electromagnetic (voice coil)

its superior to the Sony implementation and the GX8

looks like Gx80 copies the Olympus voice coil system which is great news

[Don Kotlos]

3 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Olympus is electromagnetic (voice coil)

its superior to the Sony implementation and the GX8

looks like Gx80 copies the Olympus voice coil system which is great news

Are you sure it is the same as the Olympus? 

Here it says olympus has a spring and that system was not powerful enough for a FF sensor. I cannot verify this is true but I cannot find a better source either. 

[Andrew Reid]

Olympus system uses magnetic fields and electric currents with voice coil elements

Details of how it works are here:

i suspect Sony and Panasonic use a very similar kind of technology too but so far neither have surpassed the E-M5 II

as for gx80.... Well, we'll see....

[mercer]

6 hours ago, natluma said:

Hey there guys, been a lurker for awhile but decided to chime in on this conversation. I actually had an opportunity to play around with a GX80 (and the PL 100-400) today at my local camera store. They had a rep there who happened to have a copy on hand and he let me use it.

I was really impressed with the Dual IS in 4k. Its stabilization is as good as the EM5 II but with the added benefit of resolution. The story wasn't as good when I mounted my Oly 12-40 on it however. There was some sway and shake in the footage when handholding but it didn't look too severe. It would probably be easily stabilized in post.

EDIT: Also, he told me that IBIS stabilized video will not be coming to the GX8 via firmware at all. The reason he gives is that the IBIS in the GX8 is spring-based and therefore not compatible with video while the GX80's is electromagnetic.

Thanks for the update. That 12-40 does not have OIS, correct? If not, I assume the lack of OIS has a negative effect on the overall stabilization... Which kinda sucks considering I was hoping to utilize this camera for stabilizing old S16 c-mount lens.

[natluma]

37 minutes ago, mercer said:

Thanks for the update. That 12-40 does not have OIS, correct? If not, I assume the lack of OIS has a negative effect on the overall stabilization... Which kinda sucks considering I was hoping to utilize this camera for stabilizing old S16 c-mount lens.

That's correct. The 12-40 doesn't have OIS. The footage didn't look terrible with the 12-40 but it was obvious that the camera was being handheld. I'd say its a good first attempt by Panasonic.

[mercer]

Question for the more technical members: Will the GX85 have a comparable image quality to the G7?

[Don Kotlos]

15 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Olympus system uses magnetic fields and electric currents with voice coil elements

Details of how it works are here:

i suspect Sony and Panasonic use a very similar kind of technology too but so far neither have surpassed the E-M5 II

as for gx80.... Well, we'll see....

After searching a lot on the internet and doing a little bit of inference I think I understand better what is different between the IBIS of Olympus and Sony. 

Olympus utilizes a spring to stabilize the sensor in the central position and coils/ magnets move the sensor around.

Sony replaced the spring with strong permanent magnets and also uses coils on the sensor plate to move it around. Since the FF is much heavier the strong magnets required a very strong magnesium alloy case that does not bend and the inclusion of a ball bearing system. 

Olympus description (misses the spring).

Lesnumeriques Sony engineers interview

Roger Cicala A7ii teardown

The Phoblographer IBIS discussion

So yes, both of them use voice coils to move the sensor around but olympus is using a spring based system for the base location whereas Sony uses permanent magnets. Sony claims that only their system can support heavier sensors and offers much finer control of the movement.

From my personal tests of both systems, it is true that the IBIS from Olympus is still better.

What my tests above didn't show is that after using the Sony 24-70 f/4 (got it just yesterday) with OIS the Sony gets really really close the the Olympus. So I believe the main difference between these systems is that Sony's IBIS does not compensate yaw and pitch as well as Olympus IBIS. That would agree with the experiences of @natluma with non OIS lenses on GX85 (sorry @mercer ) .

So in short Olympus IBIS is better and that could be because 1) Permanent magnets do not compensate Yaw & Pitch as well as a spring based system 2)FF sensor is much much harder to move around or 3)Fine-tuning of IBIS settings. A combination of those is most probably the case... 

[mercer]

@Don Kotlos yeah that is a bummer, but I am still interested in it for the very same reasons. Obviously, walking around with it will be an issue, but standing still should be close to tripod level if I use the neck strap method. On my FZ300, which only has OIS in 4K, I can get the thing pretty damn steady. And with controlled movements, I can take a few steps or sway in different directions to mimick sliders and pans. Which is still better than carrying a tripod or monopod around... Especially for what I want to use it for. 

[Don Kotlos]

8 minutes ago, mercer said:

@Don Kotlos yeah that is a bummer, but I am still interested in it for the very same reasons. Obviously, walking around with it will be an issue, but standing still should be close to tripod level if I use the neck strap method. On my FZ300, which only has OIS in 4K, I can get the thing pretty damn steady. And with controlled movements, I can take a few steps or sway in different directions to mimick sliders and pans. Which is still better than carrying a tripod or monopod around... Especially for what I want to use it for. 

Definitely. I have no problem with the A7rii and only miss the EM1 when walking (which is now fixed a bit with the 24-70 f/4). I assume it will be even better with the smaller sensor of the GX85, and for these walking shots you can always use a lens with OIS. 

I am very curious on what GH5 and EM1ii will bring later this year. 

[MattH]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

@Don Kotlos yeah that is a bummer, but I am still interested in it for the very same reasons. Obviously, walking around with it will be an issue, but standing still should be close to tripod level if I use the neck strap method. On my FZ300, which only has OIS in 4K, I can get the thing pretty damn steady. And with controlled movements, I can take a few steps or sway in different directions to mimick sliders and pans. Which is still better than carrying a tripod or monopod around... Especially for what I want to use it for. 

Yeah, quite a lot of people think IS is a steadycam, when it is just for hand vibration.  Drives me mental when I see reviewers jump up and down and walking slopily to test IS.  I want to say to them: "How do you think that the small movement of the sensor or the lens can compensate for you jumping up and down? You are a moron!"

Edit: I thought you were replying to someone else.

[mercer]

4 hours ago, MattH said:

Yeah, quite a lot of people think IS is a steadycam, when it is just for hand vibration.  Drives me mental when I see reviewers jump up and down and walking slopily to test IS.  I want to say to them: "How do you think that the small movement of the sensor or the lens can compensate for you jumping up and down? You are a moron!"

Edit: I thought you were replying to someone else.

With 5-axis you can do a little more, but it isn't magic. Even steadicams can look horrible if you don't walk properly. I do think with 3 points of contact, you can get steadicam-ESQUE or slider-ESQUE small movements with 5 axis IBIS. But anything more than a couple feet and that wobble will start to show.