Has Sony made a baby Alexa?

[mkabi]

2 hours ago, Germy1979 said:

If I were going off of pretty much every A7 video I've ever seen, I'd say the bottom represents the non-Sony.  - I'm not the only one either.  There are plenty of people who say the same thing regardless of opinion or measurable fact.  No one is saying Sony's are shit dude.  We just don't like their color whether you like it or not.  

I can careless for either of the above pictures, in fact... since I haven't evaluated a Sony picture on my desktop, I can't tell how much truth there is from those complaining about color. The one thing that the Sony alpha 7 cameras concurrently has a problem with is skin tone, well.... at least thats what I hear and thats what keeps me away from them... and I keep hearing the same thing, its always this "slimey, plasticky, greeny yellow" look. Again, I don't know how much truth is behind it nor do I know how much of it they corrected in the mark 2s. Then again, I don't really pixel peep on my computer either. However, if I blew it up on a projector, which I do from time to time, to show my work to my clients... I don't want to hear that the people look "slimey, plasticky, greeny yellow."

[DayRaven]

Just now, Germy1979 said:

If I were going off of pretty much every A7 video I've ever seen, I'd say the bottom represents the non-Sony.  - I'm not the only one either.  There are plenty of people who say the same thing regardless of opinion or measurable fact.  No one is saying Sony's are shit dude.  We just don't like their color whether you like it or not.  

I'm less interested in whether you like it or not, and far more interested in statements like "Sony's reds are all magenta" and the like - because for those who do use Sony - and please bear in mind, I use Blackmagic at the moment, I have Sony's for stills only, so have no dog in this race either - this information is really, really useful.

I'm not presenting the two stills above to prove some BS ego massaging point, more to help nail down exactly whay Sony colours are doing and to help people get better results with their cameras! I'm at a stage where my Pocket camera is perfect for me, but as a result of my stills lens collection, in a year or two, Sony will be a front runner for me, so getting accurate understandings of Sony's shortcomings in the eyes of people like you, who has never, not ever liked it will be crucial in making a decision - please don't think I'm attacking your view, I want to work with you and people like you.

I'm not going to give the answer as to which brand produced which image above, because I want people to feel safe in comparing the two images critically, without fear of being publically wrong.

[mkabi]

11 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

I'm less interested in whether you like it or not, and far more interested in statements like "Sony's reds are all magenta" and the like - because for those who do use Sony - and please bear in mind, I use Blackmagic at the moment, I have Sony's for stills only, so have no dog in this race either - this information is really, really useful.

I'm not presenting the two stills above to prove some BS ego massaging point, more to help nail down exactly whay Sony colours are doing and to help people get better results with their cameras! I'm at a stage where my Pocket camera is perfect for me, but as a result of my stills lens collection, in a year or two, Sony will be a front runner for me, so getting accurate understandings of Sony's shortcomings in the eyes of people like you, who has never, not ever liked it will be crucial in making a decision - please don't think I'm attacking your view, I want to work with you and people like you.

I'm not going to give the answer as to which brand produced which image above, because I want people to feel safe in comparing the two images critically, without fear of being publically wrong.

Please post pictures of people's face??? And, is this a video only problem? Cause I remember seeing someones picture of their pug/bulldog from the a7s/a7sii and it was very cinematic straight off the camera. Editted to add: 

 

[DayRaven]

Just now, mkabi said:

Please post pictures of people's face??? And, is this a video only problem? Cause I remember someone seeing someones pug/bulldog from the a7s/a7sii and it was very cinematic straight off the camera.

Will do - Though it'll have to be my ugly mug I'm afraid. I will set up a well lit scenario as well as a difficult WB scenario, again, I'm interested in pressuring the Sony's weaknesses and white balance is one of them. Yes, the issues only seem to be present in videos, not many people have any complaints about Sony camera's still quality.

Edit: Just waiting for my light's batteries to charge

[Jimmy]

The issue with Sony video, IMO, is a shifting WB error. Sometimes a magenta cast, sometimes blue, sometimes green. This happens in AWB or custom.. It's a mess.

Raw obviously doesn't have this issue

[mkabi]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

The issue with Sony video, IMO, is a shifting WB error. Sometimes a magenta cast, sometimes blue, sometimes green. This happens in AWB or custom.. It's a mess.

Raw obviously doesn't have this issue

What if you dial in a specific K value, is it wonky after that?

Try this: Put it in manual, dial in a specific K value (lets say 3600, btw, can you do that with a Sony? I don't know, cause I don't own one), you don't change scenes, and the only thing you are doing is pressing record (on/off). Does the cast change from time to time after doing that?

If so... wouldn't it be a software problem?

[Oliver Daniel]

14 minutes ago, DayRaven said:

I'm less interested in whether you like it or not, and far more interested in statements like "Sony's reds are all magenta" and the like - because for those who do use Sony - and please bear in mind, I use Blackmagic at the moment, I have Sony's for stills only, so have no dog in this race either - this information is really, really useful.

I'm not presenting the two stills above to prove some BS ego massaging point, more to help nail down exactly whay Sony colours are doing and to help people get better results with their cameras! I'm at a stage where my Pocket camera is perfect for me, but as a result of my stills lens collection, in a year or two, Sony will be a front runner for me, so getting accurate understandings of Sony's shortcomings in the eyes of people like you, who has never, not ever liked it will be crucial in making a decision - please don't think I'm attacking your view, I want to work with you and people like you.

I'm not going to give the answer as to which brand produced which image above, because I want people to feel safe in comparing the two images critically, without fear of being publically wrong.

I can confirm after so many shoots and so many tests that Sony white balance on the A7 series DOES NOT WORK PROPERLY. How it gets into the working cameras is beyond me. I think this is the main reason why A7 colour science seems a bit like puke. 

FS7 and F55, much better. These cameras skin tone seem more bronzed, muted, not plastic at all. They still need much more work than other brands to get right. 

I'll probably always keep an A7S whatever version though as its a superb tool to have in the bag, always. Sometimes the "crappy" colour is ideal. Battery life is shocking though. They need to sort this. 

[jax_rox]

8 hours ago, DayRaven said:

Now you're moving from opinion to measurable fact. If Sony's reds are magenta, you should find it trivial to tell me which of the following was from a Sony and which was from a Canon. Both direct from camera, no editing. Both set to the same white balance and the scene was illuminated with an incandescent bulb and natural sunlight, with a cheap and nasty LED with significant green problems.

 

Bottom looks closer to what I get out of my A7s...

I think many here either love to overstate things (Sony's colour 'problem' really isn't a problem - again, feel free to check out @sonyalpha on Insta) or just don't know how to use their Sony cameras...

[kidzrevil]

I liked my a7s, especially with my voigtlander m mount primes ! Hated it because of the color and blue clipping. Sony really needs to work on their color and batt life. Hoping they can fix this with a new a mount camera

[DayRaven]

As promised, skintones with the Sony and Canon - the shots with the mobile phone are the colour controlled, each and every light source matched, was a highish quality apurture LED panel. The shot where I'm cleaning my glasses has the unholy trinity of my cheap chinese LED with horrible green cast, a daylight balanced hobby light and an incandescent bulb (as well as the normal room energy savers, though they are comparitively so dim, they really only colour the backdrop)

And yes, I know I need a haircut.

I have to say, neither camera handled the difficult WB well, but one absolutely fell to pieces. As promised, I won't pull a gotcha and reveal the cameras later, so feel free to discuss the colour science differences freely without worrying about being embarassed later. I will say, the sony is a consumer grade camera while the canon is a professional product, furthermore, I shot both in either log or cine profile and graded each, by boosting the saturation and curves only, to give each camera it's best image I am capable of delivering - best in terms of seeing what the colour is doing.

Lenses were Canon L and Contax Zeiss.

To get us kicked off - Camera 1 has a magenta cast compared to camera 2's green cast. I prefer the skintones of Camera 1 but camera 2 looks more like my skins actual colour and once the green cast is corrected is more accurate but less flattering skin. Camera one goes to all hell in difficult white balance, but camera 2 is not much better, both really accentuate the reds and I find both unacceptable.

 

[squig]

8 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Sony sensor in raw has great colour... I love the stills on my a7s... Skintones are beautiful.

I hate the video with a passion

I concur.

And yeah the A7s white balance in video mode is shithouse. Anything but 5600k usually turns to shit. I use it in place of the 5D for photography, not because it takes better photos, but because its more compact and I like the EVF.

[Policar]

25 minutes ago, squig said:

I concur.

And yeah the A7s white balance in video mode is shithouse. Anything but 5600k usually turns to shit. I use it in place of the 5D for photography, not because it takes better photos, but because its more compact and I like the EVF.

I still don't get why anyone is using auto white balance. I see 3200K 5600K and rarely 4300K and that's it. 

 

[squig]

4 minutes ago, Policar said:

I still don't get why anyone is using auto white balance. I see 3200K 5600K and rarely 4300K and that's it. 

 

Who said anything about AWB? Always Kelvin.

[Policar]

1 hour ago, squig said:

Who said anything about AWB? Always Kelvin.

Eeepp... that bad?

Granted most cameras these days look best around daylight.

[Gerbert Floor]

12 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Sony's picture profiles make it as difficult as possible to get decent all-round colour out of them but I think I've found a way.

Will share it in a blog post later.

really curious, this seems to be the holy grail of sony camera's. Decent color :P 

[Mattias Burling]

I made some luts for the way that I expose s-log that makes skin look perfect with just a drag n drop. I made a couple different once with a kodak and fuji look.

But if the WB is of by just a hair, it turns to garbage.

[Jimmy]

You can't fully correct bad white balance.

If it has a red/blue/green cast, you might dial back that colour to correct any white in the scene, but completely screw up the skintones, scenery etc.

It's a major, major issue... AWB, WB settings, manually dialing in temps... It is so hit and miss and i'm certain that is the cause of all of this.

The only time I find the camera (A7s) tends to get it right is shooting at night... Maybe the engineers tailored the WB for the ultra low light shooting?

[dafreaking]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

You can't fully correct bad white balance.

If it has a red/blue/green cast, you might dial back that colour to correct any white in the scene, but completely screw up the skintones, scenery etc.

It's a major, major issue... AWB, WB settings, manually dialing in temps... It is so hit and miss and i'm certain that is the cause of all of this.

The only time I find the camera (A7s) tends to get it right is shooting at night... Maybe the engineers tailored the WB for the ultra low light shooting?

That's why I try and just correct the skin tones as much as possible.

[Jimmy]

who lit the fuse on your tampon?

That's twice now you've replied to a post of mine with complete assholery

I guess you are the first person in colour grade history that can completely CC bad white balance from a baked image... High five

[Policar]

17 hours ago, Jimmy said:

I guess you are the first person in colour grade history that can completely CC bad white balance from a baked image... High five

Don't be so snide, there are people who do just this all the time. It's just that most of them don't post about it because their clients are paying millions of dollars so no one knows what the footage used to look like before the grade.

My friend had some AF100 footage he cut for a promo graded by Stefan Sonnenfeld and it started rough but looked brilliant once he was done. I wouldn't be so hubristic as to assume it can't be done, just humble enough to admit you can't do. I can't do it, but I have a Canon so I'm not worried. 

I still can't fathom how people deal with hard chroma clipping, though. Apparently even CO3 gets stumped when it came to baked in hard chroma clipping, but where there's a will (and a lot of money) there's a way. Maybe they have it figured out by now. Or if they don't maybe someone else does.

But in theory, I agree. I don't have the skill to fix that kind of stuff, nor the patience.