Camera Upgrade 4k, Blackmagic, or Not?

[Cinegain]

Always go see Aputure. They have the more interesting affordable monitors and LED units these days I feel like (as well as some cool other developments like their DEC).

Lilliput has a new monitor as well I saw on LinkDelight, seems they've named it after the Odyssey. A lot of features carried over from the 663/O/P2 and then some, but a sleeker form factor it seems (the 663/O/P2 turned out way to bulky for my application). Though, don't know how interesting it is at those prices... especially since it's no recorder. Atomos... Convergent Design... Video Devices... SmallHD, I'm curious if they're working on two things:

- small 5 ~ 7" monitor/recorders in the let's say sub 1199 USD range (I don't like to pay more for a monitor/recorder than the typical camera (GH4) I'd be using with it), and

- small recorders without a screen

That said, Kinefinity definitely seems to be worth paying a visit and see for yourself. Get some of that intel on actual ProRes implementation, lol.

[Oliver Daniel]

1 hour ago, Jonesy Jones said:

I'm going and this has just become my first stop.

Oliver, what questions should I ask? Mine is going to be, "if I have a problem, who do I call that speaks English."

but I am horrendous at remembering all the good questions, please tell me what else to ask. 

Also, if there are any other booths I should visit, let me know, and questions. 

Awesome Mr. Jones  

I feel these guys at Kinefinity have a hard time with the West, as Chinese products kind of have some cheapo taboo and they don't have a decent international marketing and sales channel. 

It also doesn't help there's a lot of animosity online about them, mostly with those who own an expensive camera like a RED. Those who do own Kine cameras say the support is great and the products are top quality.  

These would be good questions: 

1. Are there plans to expand their international sales channel and expand dealership of their cameras? 

2. How do English speaking countries get support for the cameras (with a language barrier?) 

3. Do they have a license to use ProRes and if not, when do they expect to get it?

4. Does the global/rolling switchable shutter work in any protoypes/models? If so, is there a significant quality difference? (BM failed here as GS was not good enough). 

5. Is there any loss in quality using Hi Speed modes, and if so, what will be compromised? (Resolution, noise, moire, aliasing). 

6. Is every frame rate/resolution on the cameras available in both Raw and ProRes? 

7. What is the functionality of the KineGrip? How long can a Sony battery power the camera for via the grip? 

8. How long does the Terra take to boot? 

9. How much more weight will the KineBACK and regular V-lock add to the overall camera? 

10. What is the native ISO? 

11. If I was to pre-order the camera, when can I expect to receive it? 

12. What cost are we looking at if I order the camera with a Kinemount and an extra adapter? (Like EF or PL)? 

13. Does the 6k model have a 5k mode? If so, why not? 

14. Are lower resolutions and Hi-Speed modes crops of the sensor or can they be used with the full Super35 image area? 

15. What is included in the Wi-Fi functionality? What can we control? 

A lot of questions. But I love the look of the Terra and there are many unanswered questions. 

 

[Cinegain]

3 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Is that Axiom guy going to be there? I'll google it.

They had some new breakthroughs recently...

 

[Jimmy]

9 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

.... Don't care sorry. I'd use a Gopro Hero 3+ Silver.

Was talking to jonesy... you know... The guy going to nab and asked what people want to hear about

[Oliver Daniel]

9 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Was talking to jonesy... you know... The guy going to nab and asked what people want to hear about

Zach is in the X-Men and therefore defies all expectations.

I'm also interested in the 360 cam stuff. I expect Sony to release 458 of them in the next year.

[Jonesy Jones]

2 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Awesome Mr. Jones  

I feel these guys at Kinefinity have a hard time with the West, as Chinese products kind of have some cheapo taboo and they don't have a decent international marketing and sales channel. 

It also doesn't help there's a lot of animosity online about them, mostly with those who own an expensive camera like a RED. Those who do own Kine cameras say the support is great and the products are top quality.  

These would be good questions: 

1. Are there plans to expand their international sales channel and expand dealership of their cameras? 

2. How do English speaking countries get support for the cameras (with a language barrier?) 

3. Do they have a license to use ProRes and if not, when do they expect to get it?

4. Does the global/rolling switchable shutter work in any protoypes/models? If so, is there a significant quality difference? (BM failed here as GS was not good enough). 

5. Is there any loss in quality using Hi Speed modes, and if so, what will be compromised? (Resolution, noise, moire, aliasing). 

6. Is every frame rate/resolution on the cameras available in both Raw and ProRes? 

7. What is the functionality of the KineGrip? How long can a Sony battery power the camera for via the grip? 

8. How long does the Terra take to boot? 

9. How much more weight will the KineBACK and regular V-lock add to the overall camera? 

10. What is the native ISO? 

11. If I was to pre-order the camera, when can I expect to receive it? 

12. What cost are we looking at if I order the camera with a Kinemount and an extra adapter? (Like EF or PL)? 

13. Does the 6k model have a 5k mode? If so, why not? 

14. Are lower resolutions and Hi-Speed modes crops of the sensor or can they be used with the full Super35 image area? 

15. What is included in the Wi-Fi functionality? What can we control? 

A lot of questions. But I love the look of the Terra and there are many unanswered questions. 

 

Wow. Great questions. I will ask every single one of them. This just became my most anticipated part of NAB. 

Everyone else, questions like Oliver just wrote up would be of great value to me. I get all mesmerized by the flashing lights and forget the real reason I'm there. lol  Thanks in advance for your help.

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Please report back on any smallish , high quality 360 cameras, if you see any... Any budget, just no fisheye 4:2:0 rubbish

Will do. Give me your top 2 or 3 and I'll start there.

2 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Always go see Aputure. They have the more interesting affordable monitors and LED units these days I feel like (as well as some cool other developments like their DEC).

Lilliput has a new monitor as well I saw on LinkDelight, seems they've named it after the Odyssey. A lot of features carried over from the 663/O/P2 and then some, but a sleeker form factor it seems (the 663/O/P2 turned out way to bulky for my application). Though, don't know how interesting it is at those prices... especially since it's no recorder. Atomos... Convergent Design... Video Devices... SmallHD, I'm curious if they're working on two things:

- small 5 ~ 7" monitor/recorders in the let's say sub 1199 USD range (I don't like to pay more for a monitor/recorder than the typical camera (GH4) I'd be using with it), and

- small recorders without a screen

That said, Kinefinity definitely seems to be worth paying a visit and see for yourself. Get some of that intel on actual ProRes implementation, lol.

Aputure, Lilliput, and SmallHD were already on my agenda, so definitely. And again, questions would be very helpful.

[Cinegain]

See if you can find Ryan... he's always up to new stuff... having had success with Veydra, it seems he's now looking to create cool lighting options: https://twitter.com/iryanavery . Besides, free sunglasses.

[sudopera]

7 hours ago, Cinegain said:

See if you can find Ryan... he's always up to new stuff... having had success with Veydra, it seems he's now looking to create cool lighting options: https://twitter.com/iryanavery . Besides, free sunglasses.

I saw an article on News Shooter, that lights could be really something

http://www.newsshooter.com/2016/04/09/softpanels-led-lights-with-autocolor-and-skin-tone-enhance-features/

[mercer]

20 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I agree. 

I think it will be an Ursa Pocket, as the Ursa range is replacing the sensor in a box designs of before. Whatever market gap there is though, BM will be on it. 

In terms if a camera purchase, I've also been on an A-cam yo-yo. I think an investment now really does need 4K, as in two years, clients will be asking for it as standard. 

The issue I have with 4K is that most of the manufacturers have bolted on thin and brittle 4K at the expense of better HD.This is also affecting high frame rates. We get brittle 4K with mediocre to poor HFR performance. The A7SII is a good example of this. 4K is ok, yet the HD HFR modes are much worse in quality. This camera screams for HD 10-bit, but it's skipped for thin low bitrate 4K.

A major purchase must cover every required area at a high quality, and because clients in the UK don't care what you shoot on (as long as it looks high quality), you can get away with brands under the attractive RED logo.

I love the images from the Ursa 4.6k, however the camera is still pretty chunky (needing to invest in bigger tripod, slider etc) and the HD HFR is far from ideal for professional work. 

Pre-NAB, the ideal camera that could last years in a professional environment is the Kinefinity Terra (if the image quality remains high). Small, light, modular form factor. 5k 60fps. 4K 100fps. Raw and ProRes. Global or rolling. Good price. Organic aesthetic. Can be speed boasted and have any mount. LUT support. SSD's. Seems like a no-brainer that will last a long time. 

If anyone is going to NAB, please report from the Kinefinity stand.  

 

Yeah I am really surprised how every manufacturer is more interested in 8 bit 4K rather than 10 bit 1080 or 2.5k. BlackMagic solely owns the low budget cinema camera market. It amazes me that Panasonic or Sony hasn't introduced a natural competitor to the pocket with 10 bit. 

[silvertonesx24]

On 4/9/2016 at 2:16 PM, Anamatis said:

I've been looking at the Kinemini stuff actually looks promising but I was bummed about being stuck with RAW 4k. If the Terra provides a pro res option that'd be the cam for me.. How much is final price?

You can shoot 2k Cineform on the Kinemini.

Cineform raw >>>>> Prores anyway.

If you're looking for out-of-the-box-and-off-the-card editing, Canon is your choice.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

5 hours ago, mercer said:

Yeah I am really surprised how every manufacturer is more interested in 8 bit 4K rather than 10 bit 1080 or 2.5k. BlackMagic solely owns the low budget cinema camera market. It amazes me that Panasonic or Sony hasn't introduced a natural competitor to the pocket with 10 bit. 

It only costs $500 to make the GH4 a 10-bit 1080p camera.

[sudopera]

57 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

It only costs $500 to make the GH4 a 10-bit 1080p camera.

You are right, but still I think it would be about time to have it internaly in all future cameras in enthusiast/pro range.

It seems the way the things are going now, when BBC decides that it requires 10bit 422 for broadcast, maybe than we will get 9bit 210 

[Mattias Burling]

6 hours ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Yes and I still think the kids in Africa are still happy with Windows 98 computers.

 

I am only saying that to be happy with what you got.

And to be a bit racist

[Emanuel]

On 09/04/2016 at 5:35 PM, mercer said:

Speaking of NAB, I have a prediction for BM...

I think they will do one of two things... Not introduce a new camera, since they had such issues delivering last year's models, or double down on the Ursa brand with the Ursa Major and Ursa Minor. The former will be a direct competitor to the Alexa and Red and the latter will basically be the Pocket 2. 

You heard it here first. 

 

Pocket 4K, I guess. They now have a Chinese brand to be concerned with...

[Mattias Burling]

Looks like I found a button

On topic: I dont think Blackmagic needs to worry about Kine cameras just yet. Shooters are still very brand conservative. Blackmagic has just recently been acceptaded as an option. Still most would choose something else if they can on bigger productions. And the full frame DSLRs still have a strong grip on the smaller circut together with c100/fs700 type of cameras.

Not long ago I did a freelance thing for company that shoots blackmagic on a regular basis. They also use GH4 and D810.

I asked what they wanted, Blackmagic or D750. They choose the later. Full Frame was the reason.

So I do think BMD will show a new camera. But not because of the KineX

(EDIT: just as I wrote this I got a text that said a news paper network wants to buy a doc me and a friend shot on BM. So its DSLR 1 - 1 BMD so far this year on the Moonlight side of work.)

[Emanuel]

Maybe yes, maybe not. I still think Blackmagic has finally a real competitor to enter in their own market field. And it also does seem they don't show off with vaporware a year earlier nor FPN or similar awkwards.

Pocket 4K can be a plus for such race, out of competition, though.