What is the truth about RED's and BLACK's cameras ?

[TVDino]

Hi, my first post and I'm probably already causing a provocation, but I don't mean to !   My problem is that I'm trying to find out if I should go for a RED RAVEN package  before they (claim) to raise the price in a week = 22/4 ...  after NAB .   I started out waiting for the Ursa mini 4,6 K (knowing it is different from the 4K edition) and when they finally arrive there is no global shutter !   OK, there is a lot to be liked about UM46K, but when I tried the 4K (similar body & weight as 4,6K) at a shop it felt awkward and heavy, so I returned to look at Sony FS-5 which is an ergonomic wonder - untill I found out that with only 8 bits cartoon-like picture I would be back to square one considering Sony's A7S2 as the choice ...
Slowly I turned to the RED side, but don't feel exactly like a REDI-JEDI yet .   I'm still wondering why I NOW am considering loaning more for buying a camera at over 10.000 €/EURO ?

Then I read something intereting here at the forum, posted BEFORE both the UrsaMini's and RedRaven was announced !   It was Ed_David who wrote on the 2 of March last year :
#eoshd.com/comments/topic/8107-red-one-mx-vs-red-epic-dragon-my-personal-opinion/# that he felt his old RED ONE MX was perhaps giving better results than his new EPIC DRAGON; it reminded me of Andrew Reids recent article #eoshd.com/2016/01/5-underrated-cinematic-images-from-forgotten-cameras# and Andrew shares the same view on RED ONE MX as David that RED ONE MX is better and "more Super 16-film like vibe" ...   OK, but I want "more 35-film like vibe" movies and here is where I ask You (tolerating people outside Your SPECIFIC BLACMAGIC-USER-sub-forum ?) what I should do with the money to buy a Raven-package ....

Somehow I just think that if Ridley Scott is satisfied with a Dragon-sensor (and Cameron on Avatar 2 +) along with the partial use in Spielbergs "Jurassic World" and "007-Spectre", then I might be able to live with it ?    Does the Old RED ONE MX looks more like ARRI ALEXA ?  Cause I think "Game of Thrones" was a great cinematography, but which movie is a RED ONE MX ?  Share Your wisdom, please ?  And for fun take a vote too !  Thank You .

[Mattias Burling]

I voted old Red or Blackmagic.

You can get a fully kitted Scarlet for $4k that will give you the look you want.

An entertaining Red One MX movie is the Lincoln Lawyer.

[Jimmy]

I certainly wouldn't panic buy a Raven in fear of the prices going up... RED have halved prices in the past, based on their competitors actions and this is NAB week... Give it a week and see how the land lies. If RED put up their prices, you will doubtless have a bunch of other stuff to choose from.

[TVDino]

Thanks Mattias !  I assume Scarlet has "better grain" than ONE, so the important thing is the MX-sensor ?   But if I perhaps want slo-mo in 4K then what about the Epic MX ?  Probably VERY expensive ... if at all possible to find in used condition !
Bottomline is, I'm making a feature movie > 90 min. to play in cinemas first, later for TV .

Jimmy, I hear You, but when RED says the prices will go up on their homepage (and an email to an unspecified employee of an unspecified shop says he got an email from RED saying the prices would go up a certain amount I hold secret) they could be afraid of being ridiculed and therefore will stick to their words !   Cannot reveal that source, but cameras should get cheaper and this makes RED look Apple-ish !

[Mattias Burling]

2 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Thanks Mattias !  I assume Scarlet has "better grain" than ONE, so the important thing is the MX-sensor ?   But if I perhaps want slo-mo in 4K then what about the Epic MX ?  Probably VERY expensive ... if at all possible to find in used condition !
Bottomline is, I'm making a feature movie > 90 min. to play in cinemas first, later for TV .

The slowmo in 3K and 2K on the others would scale up nicly imo.

[Oliver Daniel]

You should also look into the Kinefinity Terra, or a battle tested Kinemini 4k for that matter. 

[TVDino]

9 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

You should also look into the Kinefinity Terra, or a battle tested Kinemini 4k for that matter. 

I did Oliver and they offer much more for the cash than others ...   BUT chinese service or support  
is perhaps on the same level as the one BlackMagic has a rumour for - even BM-fanboys admits this ! 

[Jimmy]

I know it is a bit of a cliché, but if you are making a feature, could the bulk of the money be better spent elsewhere? Lights, glass, actors, script help, gimbal etc etc

Maybe just a BMPC would suffice? (though it sounds like you might want HFR?)

If so, FS700/Odyssey 7Q combo is worth a look too... Much more manageable and feature packed than a R1-MX and the image is about equal, imho.

[TVDino]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

I know it is a bit of a cliché, but if you are making a feature, could the bulk of the money be better spent elsewhere? Lights, glass, actors, script help, gimbal etc etc

Psychologically, that is why I'm adressing all of You .  I feel pulled around by RED, trying to find out why we Europeans must pay 10.000 €/EURO !
About 1500 $ more than Amercans pay !  But EU's import-tax is only 3 % (approx. 300 $ in all 10250 $) which only justify a price of 9.000 €/EURO !

Giving 1.000 £/EURO more FOR FREE to a wealthy company, is why they might lose a RAVEN-customer; I now consider following Mattias' advice
and get a used Scarlet MX (or EPIC MX if affordable) + spend on other stuff necessary .   Good locations & clever actors I'm blessed with, already !

Still, I'd like to hear recommendations/experiences with Scarlet-X or RED Epic and the "old" MX-sensor and what to watch out for .
Especially what about Scarlets/Epics mounts (I plan to use EF), is there any LUTS and any PRO-RES (at what resolution) etc. 

PS :   Jimmy, You edited & added some camera-propositions to Your post; I will check them out and come back .
          And yes, I would prefer to shoot in 4K 2,4:1 
          But when You write combo, is it a recorder or screen alone and cannot fit/sit on the camera ?

[Jimmy]

1DX-II might be worth a look too... 4K/60fps, great colours and amazing low light

[AaronChicago]

16 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Psychologically, that is why I'm adressing all of You .  I feel pulled around by RED, trying to find out why we Europeans must pay 10.000 €/EURO !
About 1500 $ more than Amercans pay !  But EU's import-tax is only 3 % (approx. 300 $ in all 10250 $) which only justify a price of 9.000 €/EURO !

Giving 1.000 £/EURO more FOR FREE to a wealthy company, is why they might lose a RAVEN-customer; I now consider following Mattias' advice
and get a used Scarlet MX (or EPIC MX if affordable) + spend on other stuff necessary .   Good locations & clever actors I'm blessed with, already !

Still, I'd like to hear recommendations/experiences with Scarlet-X or RED Epic and the "old" MX-sensor and what to watch out for .
Especially what about Scarlets/Epics mounts (I plan to use EF), is there any LUTS and any PRO-RES (at what resolution) etc. 

PS :   Jimmy, You edited & added some camera-propositions to Your post; I will check them out and come back .
          And yes, I would prefer to shoot in 4K 2,4:1 
          But when You write combo, is it a recorder or screen alone and cannot fit/sit on the camera ?

They  make some great extension rosette arms to attach the Odyssey to the FS700. It's a freaking beast and very lovely. On the heavy side though if you're going handheld alot.

[Geoff CB]

You said you really enjoyed the form factor of the FS5, isn't that getting RAW soon? If so go with that.

[TVDino]

Thanks AaronChicago .  And I do know this FS700 very well !    With the super-slowmotion of butterflies on Youtube !
Just remembered it erroneously as NEX-700 ! I was crazy about that "monster" before I got "lowbit-blinded" by A7S2 ...
I'll have another look at it, but I think there was some other sort of problem - was it the colourscheme of Sony ?  Hmm

[Jimmy]

6 minutes ago, TVDino said:

Thanks AaronChicago .  And I do know this FS700 very well !    With the super-slowmotion of butterflies on Youtube !
Just remembered it erroneously as NEX-700 ! I was crazy about that "monster" before I got "lowbit-blinded" by A7S2 ...
I'll have another look at it, but I think there was some other sort of problem - was it the colourscheme of Sony ?  Hmm

Shoot raw and the colour is quite nice... Not the best, but WAY better than the baked in sony look. Raw to ProRes is good too

[TVDino]

What about moire on  ?  That's what first attracted me to A7S2 ("binning" the problems !) ...

Ooops Jimmy :  You talked about FS700, but I was adressing Your 1DX-II-suggestion ;-)
I meant the 1DX-II You first mentioned !   And the 1DX-II cannot record in the format 2,4 : 1 .

[Jimmy]

I don't remember it being a big problem, though I generally shoot wildlife and nature, where moire and aliasing don't seem to show up as much.

The raw output is the entire sensor though, iirc, so it is not binning, therefore should be pretty good.

[TVDino]

1 hour ago, Geoff CB said:

You said you really enjoyed the form factor of the FS5, isn't that getting RAW soon? If so go with that.

Sorry Geoff CB, I said I like the ergonomic of the FS5, but it is only 8 or 10 bit to external ...
But where did You hear the FS5 will get Raw ?   Now, THAT is interesting !!! 
 

However the question is if the FS700 will get internal 4K RAW ...  And in 2,4 : 1 format ?
Apparently You can upgrade it to 4K Raw, but only to external (and very expensive Sony-solution !)

Still, the Odyssey 7 Q maybe is upgraded/upgradeable by now to record 4K RAW ?

Correction : Seems I was crazy about VG900; not FS700 a I claimed !
                    They do share features however, like the NEX-name ...

[TVDino]

Oh, boy I cannot edit my mistake above !  Do the Forum close editing after 1 hour ?!?

Well, I mixed up a couple of Sonys ...    And wrote about FS700 when Geoff CB talked about FS5 !

[AaronChicago]

I saw no moire at all while shooting 4K on the FS700.

[Jimmy]

TV Dino, the Odyssey 7Q and 7Q+ record s35 4K raw upto 60fps (continuous) and 120fps in 4 second bursts. It can also take the raw signal and convert to ProRes, which also looks great.

You need to make sure the Fs700 has been upgraded to allow raw via the HD-SDI, but otherwise it is fairly small and cheap way to get some very high end features. I have seen FS700/O7q combos for $6K or so... I really think it is a better deal than a used Scarlet, but depends on your workflow, image tastes etc.

Even just having ND filters is a massive plus, for me... E mount is great... Low light good... Checks alot of boxes