What is the truth about RED's and BLACK's cameras ?

[HelsinkiZim]

On 15/04/2016 at 6:53 PM, IronFilm said:

Bergman never had 4K.

Bergman never had 12 bit.

Bergman never had raw.

Bergman never had good slow motion capabilities.

So explain why you NEED them? Or maybe they are really just a "want"? :-) 

Then you don't want a Scarlet-MX. You'll get better lowlight performance from even a BMPCC.

 

Going from a Canon HFS-10 to a RED Scarlet-MX or similar is a *HUGE* leap. Is a good idea to learn to walk before attempting to race a marathon.

Plus it indicates you're liking lacking in many other areas too, such as audio / lenses / lighting / rigging / etc and more. So even if you had the budget to buy say a RED Raven tomorrow, you should not! As you'd find once you get all that other stuff, then say a Panasonic GH4 would fit your budget better. 

Additionally, say a GH4 for instance, would take you easily months/years/decades to learn to make the most of it. By which point it would have depreciated away to be worth much much less, it is waaaaay far better to have done that with a cheap GH4 body than to have lost all that money on a RED camera which you never made the most of. 

 

TLDR; Get the RED because making videos these days is not a frat whereby you need to do time in the ranks.

I respectfully disagree. Not trying to troll, but I think we like to create barriers that don't exist in this profession, as it is a natural response to the commodification of industry that technology advancements are driving. It is the same feeling the taxi drivers had in France when Uber started to be a threat, the natural reaction is to try to protect the many years and hard work you have put into becoming a professional. But the 'technology of things' is allowing the next generation to get to your level of professionalism faster than it used to. Filmmaking went from being a craft to a skill to a hobby in such a short amount of time that my head is still spinning.

In every profession you start as an amateur and at some point you realise that you are in fact a professional. For doctors, lawyers, scientists and other professions where your blunders can possibly kill people, there are obviously a lot of hurdles you have to jump before you can pop that MD on your business card.

Film-making is not one of these professions. In fact the whole allure of independent filmmaking is that you grew up hearing stories of people who begged, borrowed or put on credit (or stole, in Werner Herzog's case) the monies to fund their first feature. Did Rodrigeuz or Tarantino know the benefits/ limitations of every single camera on the market before they decided they wanted to play with the big boys? I doubt it.

They figured it out along the way because they knew they were not trying to build a jet propulsion engine. They were making a movie. Now we cripple ourselves by thinking about the mechanics and science of every last detail that we end up making really 'safe' choices that add up in time and money over the years trying to plug holes in deficiencies (sound capture, monitoring, ergornomics, time in post...), and most would have been better off just taking the big risk to begin with.

To make an analogy, I feel like we are car enthusiasts, in a sense that, DSLR users are like the guys who buy a Ford Escort hatchback and spend money on souping up the car so it sounds and speeds like a high end sports car... but it is not a Bugatti, no matter how hard it tries. But what is happening is the price of the jacked up Ford Escort is coming closer to a base model BMW, metaphorically, so you might as well get the beamer.

But in a sense you are right that, due to pure statistics of how many people have failed at making a living in this business, both hollywood and work-from-home/ small office video production... it is wise to advise someone against putting themselves in financial distress over a camera system when something much cheaper essential would satisfy their potential clients/ cinematic needs. Its a fools gamble to take if it affects the well being of you and your family.

But if you are suggesting that there is a learning curve that takes "months/years/decades" for someone to learn how to get the best out of a camera you own and could afford, that is a bit pessimistic. With Andrews guide, the manual, vimeo project descriptions/ comments, youtube tutorials and a few weeks trial and error - I think you would be very well informed about the GH4. Especially if you have been using prosumer cameras for a few years.

I just feel that if you feel you can afford it, get the best camera you can buy and spend the years learning how to use it to tell a variety of stories or projects, rather than a camera that is best for niche subjects.

The idea that training wheels are still needed in the video game is not as true as it used to be when every aspect of a production was a mystery. 12 years ago if you wanted to know how to focus pull, someone would physically have to train you because who the hell could afford a follow focus system. The same with motion graphics, who had a computer powerful enough to learn at home in their underwear. Who could afford anything but a zoom lens for their XL1, if you wanted to understand how lenses worked you had to assist a pro.

Anyways, I conclude that we should not discourage people from punching above their weight because it is never a matter of IF they will ever figure out how to max out the camera, it is only when and we should not underestimate the power a young, hungry individual with time and the power of a google search. I would advise to spend those months and years with a Red rather than a GH4. It makes no difference really.

 

35 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

What type of???

 

......... I think logic just got thrown out the door.

I'm playing the name the next RED game. It's fun, you should give it a try! Think of the most macho words you can imagine and up the specs!

[HelsinkiZim]

Kaylee, did you get the press release which states that women are banned from joining the RED ecosystem (including forums)*?

Apparently, the offense is punishable by having to spend the rest of your life married to a 6ft 2in tall Steadicam operator and go to sleep every night only after he has shown you his daily selfie of his arm extension supporting a 65kg camera.

*joke!

Honestly, I do often wonder how women respond to the clearly male focused marketing of that company. I guess Raven is a name taking a step in the right direction. Its still a bit dark given ravens in the creative context, was it Edgar Allan Poe who had issue with them, and Hitchcock? Someone in marketing must be going through some dark times.

[HelsinkiZim]

Just now, Zach Goodwin said:

I'm just making sure you are not mad at me. Usually things get directed at me because the way I say things can end up flawed.

Dude, I don't get mad at my computer.

But I was just offering the other opinion that sometimes you need to just gamble and put yourself in the ring. Some have found success this way, but also many have failed.

[HelsinkiZim]

5 minutes ago, Zach Goodwin said:

Oh... Alright, moving on.

Yeah, I could have said it in 2 sentences like I just did...  but then I don't know how I should have done most things until I do them:)

I do enjoy your posts BTW.

[TVDino]

3 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

Can you make a list of what you ''need'' in a camera?

The features you'll absolutely need for making your projects (I know you tried before in page 2 but really didn't, you said you needed a scarlet)

So tell me what do you want in a camera so I'd help you choose the best for YOU?

Things to consider in answering:

-Resolution 
-Frame rate
-Low-light ISO performance you shoot at
-Colour grading/push-ability of the images
-Dynamic range, super important? or do you light your stuff creatively?
-Shoot doc type or narrative/controlled type?
-Need good in-camera audio? XLR microphones or use external recorders?
-Need internal NDs, Auto exposure, 
-Want Auto focus?
-What lens mount lenses will you be using?
-Battery requirements, will you be wanting an internal small battery that shoots all day or fine with a V-Lock?
-Size/weight? can you use a DSLR to rig or want a modular RED/Cube or an FS7/C300 camcorder type?
-Does the brand of the camera affect your clients (example: having a red get you more clients/higher fees than a BM/Canon?)
-Do yo have a preference to a certain company colour sceince? Some people really hate Sony colours and S-LOG and love Canon and ARRI colours or REDs?
-Maximum budget in US dollars

(btw don't fall in the trap of thinking 10/12bit is the holy grail and what makes a difference, it's much more than that. For example, a 12bit raw image from the BMP4K is LESS gradeable and pushable than an 8bit 4:2:2 image from a 1DC, so don't get too caught in the specs, look at the IMAGES, which are made up of sensor quality, processing, colour science, etc, not just the codec. Some camera compress extremely nicely, really really nicely! - the above mentioned points are way more important than a bit-depth spec)


"Filmmaking really began with technology, not through telling stories,
because my 8mm movie camera was the way into whatever I decided to do.
-Steven Spielberg"

Yeah, good Spielberg-quote !  I like his (at least claimed) social attitude to filmmaking as a building-team, but I actually use a Clint Eastwood-like effective production and try to direct the beautifull way he handles actors ... One of my actors told me I was directing the same way Susanne Bier
did which I don't think is a compliment, so I hope to grow as great as Clint, become as skillfull as Kubrick and balance mainstream with depth !
Talk about marathon-ambitions ...        NB : A smal notice for Ebrahim Saadawi - Scarlet is just a reference for me !

-Resolution :    I may have to settle with 2K (if 4K is too much to handle) for the project waiting, but I really look forward to Ratio 2,4:1
-Frame rate :     Not decided as Europe uses 25, but 24 is said to give a better look; could be due to electricity frequence-difference
                          US 60 Hz/ Europe 50 hz and then I would like to use some Slow Motion frame rates which has to be shot at 2K since
                          Scarlet don't do Slow Motion 4K and it looks like used Epic MX are still way too expensive .

-Low-light ISO performance you shoot at :                 A few scenes outdoor night, but mostly indoor evening, a little bedroom-darkness
-Colour grading/push-ability of the images :               I would like to have some post-room if I get extreme or creative ...

-Dynamic range, super important? :                           The Scarlet range with HDR as an occasional possibility, is very OK
or do you light your stuff creatively? :                         I use the "normal available light + 2 variable spots for creativity

-Shoot doc type or narrative/controlled type? :           Next project mainly fiction, so narrative at the moment

-Need good in-camera audio?  :                                 I hate bad sound in movies, but hope Scarlets inputs wiil be sufficient
XLR microphones or use external recorders?            I have both jack and XLR-mikes and is newbie at sync, but considering external recorders

-Need internal NDs, Auto exposure :                          Nah, will use matte ND's ... trying to avoid auto exposure
-Want Auto focus? :                                                    Auto Focus would be very wellcome, but not so imperative

-What lens mount lenses will you be using?               EF (at some future-point I will start using PL as there are obvious benefits)

-Battery requirements, will you be wanting
 an internal small battery that shoots all day              I often use available AC-plugins at indoor-scenes since my old lamps used 230 Volt ....
 or fine with a V-Lock? :                                              "Internal small battery that shoots all day" ?  Has it been invented ?   V-lock is perfect


-Size/weight? :                                                             A 10 lb RED ONE is for emergency-plan C ... 5 lb and below
 can you use a DSLR to rig or                                     If I wanted 8 bit I'd go for Sony FS5 or even consider Sony A7S2
want a modular RED/Cube or                                     A 12 lb FS7 is for emergency-plan D ... 13,2 lb ? + I hate C100/300's bad ergonomic grip
an FS7/C300 camcorder type?  :                                Modula RED used Scarlet MX (or a cheap Epic MX) looks good,
                                                                                    Ursa Mini 4,6 K is changed to emergency-plan B

-Does the brand of the camera
affect your clients :                                                     Not the present one, BUT the BM-support seems mediocre and
                                                                                   Kinefinity's Chinese support is unknown ...

-Do yo have a preference to a
certain company colour sceince?                               Not really, I was a Canon-Cam-fan and discovered the un-ergonomic C100 ...
                                                                                   Then looked at Sony VG900, X70, A7S2, FS5 and then BM Ursa Mini 4,6 K
                                                                                   failed the promised global shutter until REDS Raven and now i look at old REDs ...
                                                                 
Some people really hate Sony colours
and S-LOG and love Canon and                                Sony RAW can be fixed in post, Canon C-XXX should have great colours,
                                                                                    uncertain about BM's, but ARRI was amazing in "Game of Thrones" !
ARRI colours or REDs?                                              However RED seems to do fine in many movies ...

-Maximum budget in US dollars                                 Raven basic package in EURO

AND I cannot agree with You on bit-importance; I have recorded before on 8 bit, but I can see it gives a cartoon-like neon-result,
I have wellknown danish painters on both parents side and able to see the difference in amount of colours !   I can actually taste
Umani as well as taste red from white wine blindfolded ... Fortunately .

8-bit 256 different values, 10-bit 1024 different values, 12-bit 4096 different values,14-bit 16,384 different values, 16-bit 65,536 different values
Movie Pro's use 16-bit or more and some directors or photographers might have some supersenses making pictures more beautifull for You all ?

[TVDino]

2 hours ago, HelsinkiZim said:

TLDR; Get the RED because making videos these days is not a frat whereby you need to do time in the ranks.

I respectfully disagree. Not trying to troll, but I think we like to create barriers that don't exist in this profession, as it is a natural response to the commodification of industry that technology advancements are driving. It is the same feeling the taxi drivers had in France when Uber started to be a threat, the natural reaction is to try to protect the many years and hard work you have put into becoming a professional. But the 'technology of things' is allowing the next generation to get to your level of professionalism faster than it used to. Filmmaking went from being a craft to a skill to a hobby in such a short amount of time that my head is still spinning.

In every profession you start as an amateur and at some point you realise that you are in fact a professional. For doctors, lawyers, scientists and other professions where your blunders can possibly kill people, there are obviously a lot of hurdles you have to jump before you can pop that MD on your business card.

Film-making is not one of these professions. In fact the whole allure of independent filmmaking is that you grew up hearing stories of people who begged, borrowed or put on credit (or stole, in Werner Herzog's case) the monies to fund their first feature. Did Rodrigeuz or Tarantino know the benefits/ limitations of every single camera on the market before they decided they wanted to play with the big boys? I doubt it.

They figured it out along the way because they knew they were not trying to build a jet propulsion engine. They were making a movie. Now we cripple ourselves by thinking about the mechanics and science of every last detail that we end up making really 'safe' choices that add up in time and money over the years trying to plug holes in deficiencies (sound capture, monitoring, ergornomics, time in post...), and most would have been better off just taking the big risk to begin with.

To make an analogy, I feel like we are car enthusiasts, in a sense that, DSLR users are like the guys who buy a Ford Escort hatchback and spend money on souping up the car so it sounds and speeds like a high end sports car... but it is not a Bugatti, no matter how hard it tries. But what is happening is the price of the jacked up Ford Escort is coming closer to a base model BMW, metaphorically, so you might as well get the beamer.

But in a sense you are right that, due to pure statistics of how many people have failed at making a living in this business, both hollywood and work-from-home/ small office video production... it is wise to advise someone against putting themselves in financial distress over a camera system when something much cheaper essential would satisfy their potential clients/ cinematic needs. Its a fools gamble to take if it affects the well being of you and your family.

But if you are suggesting that there is a learning curve that takes "months/years/decades" for someone to learn how to get the best out of a camera you own and could afford, that is a bit pessimistic. With Andrews guide, the manual, vimeo project descriptions/ comments, youtube tutorials and a few weeks trial and error - I think you would be very well informed about the GH4. Especially if you have been using prosumer cameras for a few years.

I just feel that if you feel you can afford it, get the best camera you can buy and spend the years learning how to use it to tell a variety of stories or projects, rather than a camera that is best for niche subjects.

The idea that training wheels are still needed in the video game is not as true as it used to be when every aspect of a production was a mystery. 12 years ago if you wanted to know how to focus pull, someone would physically have to train you because who the hell could afford a follow focus system. The same with motion graphics, who had a computer powerful enough to learn at home in their underwear. Who could afford anything but a zoom lens for their XL1, if you wanted to understand how lenses worked you had to assist a pro.

Anyways, I conclude that we should not discourage people from punching above their weight because it is never a matter of IF they will ever figure out how to max out the camera, it is only when and we should not underestimate the power a young, hungry individual with time and the power of a google search. I would advise to spend those months and years with a Red rather than a GH4. It makes no difference really.

 

I'm playing the name the next RED game. It's fun, you should give it a try! Think of the most macho words you can imagine and up the specs!

Right ! "not a frat whereby you need to do time in the ranks"  Thanks HZ, You nailed the pyramid-thinking well-meaning people exhibit and exert on others ... And speak about automatic reactions & recordings :

A ROBOT-camera that shoots the whole movie for You !  The RED® WARPDRIVE 666 w/ TERMINATOR-X SENSOR™® - 32K (3.000 FPS)

[HelsinkiZim]

Just now, Zach Goodwin said:

WITH MUTHAFUCKING 2,000K RESOLUTION!

No, thats the RED® EXOSKELETON® RAPIDAMMO SENSOR™®

Please do your research before posing on this forum.

[mkabi]

You guys have it all wrong, except for the weapon... all RED products had an affliation with the Word RED, like RED scarlet, RED dragon....

So, with that tradition the next one is going to be RED® BABOONS ASS™®

[TheRenaissanceMan]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

You guys have it all wrong, except for the weapon... all RED products had an affliation with the Word RED, like RED scarlet, RED dragon....

So, with that tradition the next one is going to be RED® BABOONS ASS™®

Scarlet I get, but what do Dragons have to do with the color red?

[jgharding]

The RED EMOXXX BILBO EDITION has a technical maximum frame rate rate of ∞FPS AT ∞K because IT DOESNT SHOOT FOOTAGE!!!

It only captures RAW EMOTION straight from your BRAIN to FLOPPY DISKS! DO EVERYTHING IN POST!!!!!!!!1111!!1one!

***

do consider the C100/ninja 2 combo though. It is a bargain and grades excellently. This was shot that way, in DNxHD 220X. It's 8-bit out of the camera, but still brilliant due to Canon voodoo.

 

 

[kaylee]

7 hours ago, HelsinkiZim said:

i think you meant the new RED® NUCLEAR WARHEAD w/ VIAGRA-X SENSOR™® - 8K (6.5K 400p cropped)

thats honestly awesome i was searching for overtly masculine/aggressive terms but i just kept coming up with pro wrestling moves

my example might be funnier but yours is more accurate satire lol

seriously tho, just for the record:

i supported RED since before day one. im not a hater

i want them to do better

hell, id be the first person to (partially) defend a camera called "RAPE-X MYSTERIONGYNY®™" if i was in love with the image. id be like "I kno the name is problematic but...!!!!"

when i was brand new to filmmaking before the red one even came out and "old people" [translation = cynical assholes] were like 'Whaaat lmao an actual digital movie camera pffttfttt no way impossible" and i was like Uhmm what why...~? Ive been shooting STILLS for years and it seems like things are trending in that direction...? I mean im no scientist but pretty sure that If you think that pure technology is going to be a barrier in the near future then youre an idiot...???

many ::sigh:: years later here we are with a violence party of specs from red cameras, but how much better are their latest/greatest vs their earlier cameras? to me, in some ways, there may have been a regression...

p.s. i love "specs", im renting a 5ds soon to shoot some special purpose stills that a d810 couldnt ~quite~ resolve, i did tests. but in cinema, more than any other medium in the arts imo, the whole is more than the sum of its parts

2 minutes ago, jgharding said:

1111!!1one!

lmaoooo ?

[squig]

38 minutes ago, kaylee said:

I mean im no scientist but pretty sure that If you think that pure technology is going to be a barrier in the near future then youre an idiot...???

Lulz! When I posted the first vid of Magic Lantern raw (it could only record 2 seconds at that point) the "cynical assholes" said it would never work. A few days later I posted a 1 minute ML raw vid. Soon after that ML cracked the 4Gb file size limit. To this day some cynical assholes are still saying it doesn't work (unreliable). Bullshit!

I've never been a Red fanboy. I had access to a Red One at film school, but I shot everything with my 5D MK2, and I've been filming with DSLRs ever since. The BMMCC is my first 'digital cinema camera'. The 5D MK3 with Magic Lantern is still the camera I film with, it's quite erm magical . A friend offered to shoot my film with his Dragon but I said no thanks. The whole Red attitude thing turned me off them. Working with a small dedicated crew of hackers who are way ahead of the game is more my style.

[TVDino]

1 hour ago, squig said:

Lulz! When I posted the first vid of Magic Lantern raw (it could only record 2 seconds at that point) the "cynical assholes" said it would never work. A few days later I posted a 1 minute ML raw vid. Soon after that ML cracked the 4Gb file size limit. To this day some cynical assholes are still saying it doesn't work (unreliable). Bullshit!

I've never been a Red fanboy. I had access to a Red One at film school, but I shot everything with my 5D MK2, and I've been filming with DSLRs ever since. The BMMCC is my first 'digital cinema camera'. The 5D MK3 with Magic Lantern is still the camera I film with, it's quite erm magical . A friend offered to shoot my film with his Dragon but I said no thanks. The whole Red attitude thing turned me off them. Working with a small dedicated crew of hackers who are way ahead of the game is more my style.

Interesting; Magic Lantern gives 14-bit uncompressed RAW video to a CF/SD card, but only in HD or 2K format ?
Any Camera compatible with this "Magic" doing 4K, specifically 2,4:1 Ratio ?  >29 min. ?  Slow motion in 4K too ?
It's full frame, so that would imply 4,5 K to cut it and achieve the 2,4:1 Ratio in 4K !  Canon colour & low light ... 

[squig]

Magic Lantern does 2.39:1 but only HD. The 1dx MKII or 1dc would be closest look wise but only they're only 8bit. The Blackmagic Pocket and Micro come close but the image isn't as magical as the 5D raw. 4K is a big wank to try to convince consumers to buy more shit. I'm happy with the HD resolution from these cameras, I'm much more interested in extended dynamic range than I am in 4K.

[TVDino]

5 minutes ago, squig said:

Magic Lantern does 2.39:1 but only HD. The 1dx MKII or 1dc would be closest look wise but only they're only 8bit. The Blackmagic Pocket and Micro come close but the image isn't as magical as the 5D raw. 4K is a big wank to try to convince consumers to buy more shit. I'm happy with the HD resolution from these cameras, I'm much more interested in extended dynamic range than I am in 4K.

HD, not 2K as the Cinemas use for showing movies ?  Can I use Magic Lantern at 2.39:1 HD/2k ON the 1dx MKII or 1dc ?
Ahh, You mean they have 4K, but only in 8-bit ... 

[squig]

Magic Lantern doesn't work on those cameras. 2K is only a very slight uprez from HD and won't cause any image degradation. Plenty of films have been shot in HD uprez'd to 2k.

[odie]

1 hour ago, squig said:

Lulz! When I posted the first vid of Magic Lantern raw (it could only record 2 seconds at that point) the "cynical assholes" said it would never work. A few days later I posted a 1 minute ML raw vid. Soon after that ML cracked the 4Gb file size limit. To this day some cynical assholes are still saying it doesn't work (unreliable). Bullshit!

I've never been a Red fanboy. I had access to a Red One at film school, but I shot everything with my 5D MK2, and I've been filming with DSLRs ever since. The BMMCC is my first 'digital cinema camera'. The 5D MK3 with Magic Lantern is still the camera I film with, it's quite erm magical . A friend offered to shoot my film with his Dragon but I said no thanks. The whole Red attitude thing turned me off them. Working with a small dedicated crew of hackers who are way ahead of the game is more my style.

for purely artistic beauty film is my primary medium..for low light 5d with ml..those guys and girls have integrity  (it's not about vimeo or specs but feelings)

[squig]

On 15/04/2016 at 10:30 PM, TVDino said:

Thanks for participating, I will try to concentrate my previous posts further ...

"What do you specifically NEED?"

1. A Camera able to make a "slow" Bergman-style >90 min. Cinema-movie
    in good-looking 4K 12 bit RAW, preferably with slow-motion-possibilities
    so I can perfect/add psychological colour-tones and lightings in postwork
2. Perhaps a used Scarlet MX (or EPIC MX if affordable)
   + spend on other stuff necessary"
3. And I have access to friends fine EF-lenses, so I "plan to use EF-mount"
4.  But I'm open to suggestions about needed equipment ...

"What features do you WANT?"

Finest grain, true colour and high low-light performance ...  Of course ?
And hopefully the Camera can shoot Ratio of 2,4:1 or well above 16:9 !

You don't "need" 4K. Most cinemas project 2K and you can uprez HD to 4K for Netflix etc.. I'm shooting my film with the 5D MK3 raw HD and I'm going to be sending it to major festivals for consideration.  Dynamic range, color science, and lighting are a lot more important than more than HD resolution. The Alexa's been used on tonnes of films and it's 2.5k. You're better of using the money you'd spend on a Red to buy better sound gear and lighting, and better food for your actors.

[TVDino]

28 minutes ago, squig said:

Magic Lantern doesn't work on those cameras. 2K is only a very slight uprez from HD and won't cause any image degradation. Plenty of films have been shot in HD uprez'd to 2k.

OK, and thanks for helping !  A 5DMK2 with VAF-5D2b filter may be ideal (and cheap) to start with - I just feel terrified about the idea of
getting sound on this combo, not to mention using 2 XLR-units !    What is the ultimate "cinema-lens" for 5DMK2  :  24mm, 28 or ?

[squig]

The 5D MK2 doesn't do full HD, slightly less. If you really want to you can record good quality sound on a 5D MK2/MK3 with a juicedlink pre-amp, but it's more professional to record dual system sound with a boom. I don't use EF lenses, I use 60s/70s era Leica-r lenses and Iscorama anamorphic adapters. If you want a filmic Bergman like quality best to go with vintage glass.