Opinions on an upgrade

[localstarlight]

Hi!

For some years now, I've been shooting smaller projects with a 5D Mk 2. A few years ago, my company acquired a RED Scarlet, which has since been upgraded to a Dragon, which we use for all our main commercial projects. However, I am now in a position where I need a new lower end camera for smaller projects that are coming up where the RED would be overkill/burdensome, and it feels like the Mk2 is no longer cutting it.

I've been a bit out of the game of keeping up with camera tech though, so I've spent the last couple of days looking at what's available these days and trying to figure out an option, and I'm drowning a little bit in the possibilities – a great thing in many regards, but also a bit of a headache.

From shooting and grading RED, I've grown accustomed to working with both high resolutions and beautiful raw footage. I'm not expecting something similar for a budget price, but trying to weigh up what's important. For example, I'm never going to be delivering these smaller projects in anything higher than 1080 for web, but I want it to be a very good 1080.

The two main routes I'm entertaining at the moment are:

1. The Sony A7S ii

2. The Blackmagic Micro CInema Camera

The Sony is obviously way more expensive, but seems like a very capable camera. I'm used to the DSLR format.

The BMMCC seems like an interesting (and much cheaper) alternative. I'm aware it's basically designed for Go Pro-esque filming, but it seems like it could work quite nicely (and lightly) on a shoulder rig with EVF/LCD. People rave about the filmic image quality of the BMPCC, and this camera seems to be the natural successor to that camera, so I'm wondering whether it could be a great option.

Wondering what you guys think about these two options, and whether there's another camera I should be considering instead?

 

 

[Nikkor]

With a BMPCC speedbooster you get a virtual almost APS-C sized sensor 1.7x crop. So no gopro look.

[Jimmy]

Why not just stick ML on the 5DII and shoot raw?

[localstarlight]

@Nikkor: so do you feel like it's a good option? Have you shot much with the BMPCC?

@Jimmy: I did have a go at the raw video ML for the Mk2 and have to say it was not that user friendly. I've seen the Mk3 is/was favoured by lots of people for raw video, but not the Mk2. Initially I had thought about upgrading to a Mk3, but reading about some of the more recent options is making me reconsider. The EOSHD review for the A7S (I think) basically ends with questioning why anyone would still be shooting with a Mk3 (let alone a Mk2) ...

[Jimmy]

7 minutes ago, localstarlight said:

@Nikkor: so do you feel like it's a good option? Have you shot much with the BMPCC?

@Jimmy: I did have a go at the raw video ML for the Mk2 and have to say it was not that user friendly. I've seen the Mk3 is/was favoured by lots of people for raw video, but not the Mk2. Initially I had thought about upgrading to a Mk3, but reading about some of the more recent options is making me reconsider. The EOSHD review for the A7S (I think) basically ends with questioning why anyone would still be shooting with a Mk3 (let alone a Mk2) ...

and one of his recent posts basically claimed the MK2 with raw was one of the best "forgotten cameras" for cinema. EOSHD likes tech and gets excited by the latest specs, but that doesn't always equate to the most balanced review... once the dust settles.

I traded my 5D3 for an A7s and have hated it since day one... Everyone is different though. As soon as I can shoot 1080/60p raw on a Canon, I will move back.

[Nikkor]

47 minutes ago, localstarlight said:

@Nikkor: so do you feel like it's a good option? Have you shot much with the BMPCC?

I haven't used neither, but if you want raw, it's the only option. You can always try one and if you don't like it, sell it again without loosing money, it's a cheap camera.

[Kurtisso]

Heyo. If your final delivery is 1080p and you're finding the a7s ii on the more expensive side, why not consider the a7s i instead? If you're looking for crop room and therefore want 4k acquisition, you might not be happy with the a7s ii's internal 8-bit 4:2:0. The only way to get 4k 8-bit 4:2:2 is hdmi out to external recorder, which is the same as the a7s i. But at the end of the day, 8-bit just might not be the most fun to work with if you're coming from r3d.

Is the Digital Bolex d16 in MFT mount with a speedbooster outside of the possible budget? You would get absolutely gorgeous colour, cinema dng raw files and global shutter and xlr ins for "run and gun dslr" style. Probably the most beautiful 1080p/2k in a smaller package. 

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

I traded my 5D3 for an A7s and have hated it since day one... Everyone is different though. As soon as I can shoot 1080/60p raw on a Canon, I will move back.

I did the same Jimmy, I really enjoyed the a7s though and did some cool projects. Ended up trading that in to get a Kine, which I plan to use for as many years as I can.

Beautiful colour and raw, I don't see myself going back to not having those.

[BrorSvensson]

5 hours ago, Jimmy said:

and one of his recent posts basically claimed the MK2 with raw was one of the best "forgotten cameras" for cinema. EOSHD likes tech and gets excited by the latest specs, but that doesn't always equate to the most balanced review... once the dust settles.

I traded my 5D3 for an A7s and have hated it since day one... Everyone is different though. As soon as I can shoot 1080/60p raw on a Canon, I will move back.

You can basiclly shoot 1080p 60fps on the mark iii in raw, just a little downgrade in detail.

here's a random test i found 

 

[Jimmy]

I didn't really like that stretch technique with 60p mode... Seemed to lose something more than just resolution, like a spatial difference... Hard to explain.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

I guess it really depends what your working style is, and what you're looking to get out of your second camera. There's a lot of great cameras that can fill the general role you're describing, so the more you can narrow down your wish list of features, the better.

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, localstarlight said:

1.  The Sony A7S ii

Personally I think the A7s mk2 is in a tough price spot, as that is such a large chunk of change to buy an A7s mk2 when an FS5 would be so much much much better! Yes the FS5 is even more expensive, but by the point you're at this level, the extra overall cost vs the revenue you'd earn from it in the next couple of years, I don't think it is such a big difference (of course the FS5 is itself in a tough spot...  when the FS7 is only a little more than the FS5! And so the slippery slope continues.... I've seen F5 go for amazingly good prices secondhand? Or how about that F65....).

However.... A7s mk1 are now going secondhand for heaps cheaper than A7s mk2 would cost. And as you just want good quality HD, and don't care about 4K. Then it seems A7s mk1 is the obvious choice over the A7s mk2. 

 

The BMMCC is the most interesting of them all. It is very new so not that much info out there, but already a few interesting ways to rig it up:
http://cheesycam.com/custom-mods-for-blackmagic-design-micro-cinema-camera-w-diy-remote-handle/
And with time even more and more will be made, by third parties such as Zacuto or Wooden Camera (and then knock offs from China after that, at a fraction of their price). 
Am especially looking forward to rigs with handles that communicate with the BMMCC!

Plus the BMPCC has already been favorably compared with and shot with RED cameras, the BMMCC is following in the BMPCC's heritage, I'm sure you'd like the BMMCC in some role or another. It would make for a great B cam on RED shoots as well! (such as an action camera, or drone camera)

Final thought for high quality 1080 footage:
Sony PMW-F3 with BMD Video Assist (or Samurai Blade). 

Don't think there is a better bang for buck 1080 camera than that! (can go for as little as US$1500 or less secondhand)

Is the one I own and frequently shoot on myself. Together with a BMPCC (and have a Panasonic G6 for the ultra low budget shoots :-P ). 

 

EDIT: Final final thoughts:

How about a Kinefinity KineMINI 4K? A battle tested one loaded with all the options is available now for a mere US$3.5K!! :-o 

That is a downright insane deal for so much camera! It has the option of interchangeable mounts, raw 4K, slow motion, uses cheap standard off the shelf SSDs, can use focal reducers to get that VistaVision / Full Frame look. 

Could be perfect for a RED shop where the productions doesn't have the budget to use their RED.

[rdouthit]

Lots of great options...

• Sony RX100 Mk IV: Small but powerful. And hey! 240fps that looks great. (maybe even the RX10 MkII?)
• Nikon D500: Look at my test against the FS7 in another thread. 4k. Good mojo. Less rolling shutter than A7S.
• Sony A7S: I shot several docs on one. If you can't do good footage with it, you need to find a new career/hobby.
• Used Sony FS700. Yes, it's AVCHD internal. Still kicks ass. (and makes beautiful 4k 120fps to external recorder if you want to go that route.)
• Sony FS5. Basically a new version of the FS700 with XAVC and internal 4k. A bargain at 5k.

There are more. But these are the ones I have personal experience with and can recommend. 

[localstarlight]

Wow, this is all incredibly helpful. I'm going to need to take a moment to explore all these options – thanks so much everyone.

I have to say, I'm really liking the pricepoint and size of the new BMMCC. Will leave some money to spend on glass, which would be great.

Thanks again!

[Jimmy]

XC10 could be a wildcard too?

[silvertonesx24]

15 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Personally I think the A7s mk2 is in a tough price spot, as that is such a large chunk of change to buy an A7s mk2 when an FS5 would be so much much much better! Yes the FS5 is even more expensive, but by the point you're at this level, the extra overall cost vs the revenue you'd earn from it in the next couple of years, I don't think it is such a big difference (of course the FS5 is itself in a tough spot...  when the FS7 is only a little more than the FS5! And so the slippery slope continues.... I've seen F5 go for amazingly good prices secondhand? Or how about that F65....).

However.... A7s mk1 are now going secondhand for heaps cheaper than A7s mk2 would cost. And as you just want good quality HD, and don't care about 4K. Then it seems A7s mk1 is the obvious choice over the A7s mk2. 

 

The BMMCC is the most interesting of them all. It is very new so not that much info out there, but already a few interesting ways to rig it up:
http://cheesycam.com/custom-mods-for-blackmagic-design-micro-cinema-camera-w-diy-remote-handle/
And with time even more and more will be made, by third parties such as Zacuto or Wooden Camera (and then knock offs from China after that, at a fraction of their price). 
Am especially looking forward to rigs with handles that communicate with the BMMCC!

Plus the BMPCC has already been favorably compared with and shot with RED cameras, the BMMCC is following in the BMPCC's heritage, I'm sure you'd like the BMMCC in some role or another. It would make for a great B cam on RED shoots as well! (such as an action camera, or drone camera)

Final thought for high quality 1080 footage:
Sony PMW-F3 with BMD Video Assist (or Samurai Blade). 

Don't think there is a better bang for buck 1080 camera than that! (can go for as little as US$1500 or less secondhand)

Is the one I own and frequently shoot on myself. Together with a BMPCC (and have a Panasonic G6 for the ultra low budgetshoots :-P ). 

 

EDIT: Final final thoughts:

How about a Kinefinity KineMINI 4K? A battle tested one loaded with all the options is available now for a mere US$3.5K!! :-o 

That is a downright insane deal for so much camera! It has the option of interchangeable mounts, raw 4K, slow motion, uses cheap standard off the shelf SSDs, can use focal reducers to get that VistaVision / Full Frame look. 

Could be perfect for a RED shop where the productions doesn't have the budget to use their RED.

This. I would say if you love working with great raw images than either 5D3/2 with magic lantern or a used Kinemini 4k is the clear choice. More so the 5d as with the Kinemini you will need a D-tap power source and a monitor.

A7s makes no sense to me unless you need 4k. Currently cutting a project shot on both 5d2 raw and A7s mark II and it isn't even comparable.

Never used the Micro but the cinemadng workflow is exactly what you will get with Magic Lantern and MLVFS.

 

 

 

[Jimmy]

Agreed... The people saying you can get a nice image out of the A7s are correct, in some situations it can look beautiful, but it is a pain in the ass to get anywhere even close to a nice, full raw image ... If that is what you are used to, then go for BM, Canon ML or Kine etc

[Kurtisso]

17 hours ago, IronFilm said:

How about a Kinefinity KineMINI 4K? A battle tested one loaded with all the options is available now for a mere US$3.5K!! :-o 

That is a downright insane deal for so much camera! It has the option of interchangeable mounts, raw 4K, slow motion, uses cheap standard off the shelf SSDs, can use focal reducers to get that VistaVision / Full Frame look. 

Could be perfect for a RED shop where the productions doesn't have the budget to use their RED.

1 hour ago, silvertonesx24 said:

This. I would say if you love working with great raw images than either 5D3/2 with magic lantern or a used Kinemini 4k is the clear choice. More so the 5d as with the Kinemini you will need a D-tap power source and a monitor.

Battle tested KineMINI is such a great deal right now. Kinefinity even sells kinebatts and dual chargers, pretty cheap 130watt battery sources in gold mount or v-lock. These batteries or chargers aren't the "super intelligent" antons but they also don't cost a kidney. I use them and will keep monitoring to see how they last over time. The Kine's are built pretty solid too, I don't use a cage for mine.

I use the Samsung 850 Pro's for ssd. They work like a charm. I swap between the kineEnhancer for ~full frame (1.1x) and regular (s35) EF mounts and use a nikon to EF adapter for my nikkors and m42 to EF for my soviets. 

The cinema DNG's that come out of this cam are pretty darn fun to grade. Here's one of the .dng from a project I shot with the KineMINI earlier this year: PRJ-0001-060-A1-6274-0000199.dng Move it around in lightroom or whatever you tinker with. Didn't get much fire reflection from the torch off of the glasses from that angle so didn't end up using it.

 

[omar]

get a used c100 mki

[Geoff CB]

On 4/26/2016 at 5:37 AM, localstarlight said:

 

From shooting and grading RED, I've grown accustomed to working with both high resolutions and beautiful raw footage. I'm not expecting something similar for a budget price, but trying to weigh up what's important. For example, I'm never going to be delivering these smaller projects in anything higher than 1080 for web, but I want it to be a very good 1080.

 

I'll echo what some others have said, get a "Battletested" KineMini 4K. http://www.kinefinity.com/shop/kinemini-battle-tested/?lang=en

[andrew berekdar]

24 minutes ago, Geoff CB said:

I'll echo what some others have said, get a "Battletested" KineMini 4K. http://www.kinefinity.com/shop/kinemini-battle-tested/?lang=en

If you can get them while they're in stock...