Requesting a 4K 5D Mark IV! Werner meets Canon in Germany

[User]

Spending for mediocre tech is unnerving, but in some ways limitations can be a great thing. One part of me likes it that we can not always have the biggest, best, fastest camera all the time. These limits sometimes appear as reminders to focus on what I 'can have' and very often that means focusing on people story and storytelling.

[frontfocus]

@Andrew Reid

finally someone telling the truth how the industry works. Thanks for that!

 

But I think you are wrong on one little detail (that has nothing to do with the rest). The removal of the video Button on the X-T2 prototype probably point to the video mode becoming more important. Why is that?!

Because we already know it should do 4K. Fuji managers have said as much. And then there is the technical detail, that somehow everyone missed on the internet: there is another setting on the mode dial (the dial beneath the ISO dial). I am pretty sure that this is the Video mode. 

Making video a mode and not a button you press to start and stopp, gives more freedom. You could change some video settings before starting (probably with the release button). 

Of course this is speculation, but I am pretty sure it will happen in a similar way

[Django]

8 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The 1D X Mark II is $6k

It is 1.5x crop 4K, not even full frame. No Canon LOG like the 1D C, no peaking, or any kind of assists for more comfortable video shooting.

However they did go to the effort to crank up the speed of the sensor so that it could do 4K at 60fps. I wonder why they bothered?

Why bother with that expense on the sensor side and not even add peaking in the firmware?

That's a mystery... the 5D Mark IV will be an even bigger one.

There's not a cat in hells chance it is going to be competitive with the rest of the video market through 2016/17.

Dude, This is Germany in the 70's!

It isn't really a mystery why no peaking / canon log in Canon DSLR's & you know the answer already: EOS C line.

Canon just has to build a distinction between their DSLR & Camcorder lines or at least they feel so, hence certain omissions. 

1DC was sort of an experiment.. Canon giving filmmakers some of what they want in a DSLR form factor. Doubt that'll happen again.

My prediction for the 5D IV: 4K/60FPs & dual pixel AF. Maybe a bump in DR with the new sensor. That'll make plenty of people happy. For peaking etc people will have to use an external monitor/recorder which is mandatory anyways to squeeze out the best out of the crappy 8bit 420... or install Magic Lantern. But don't expect Canon to give you any kind of video assist or stuff like that, they still view DSRL's as primarily stills camera with video capabilities, but for serious pro video/film making they want you to fork out for the C line. Personally, i'm more curious about what a C100 mk3 would look like (with 4K, 10-bit 422 etc.. now that would get me hyped) I'm sort of done with DSLR's and their lack of advanced pro video/film features (when an iPhone can do 4K & 120/240 slowmo.. resolution & FPS just isn't enough in a pro body)

[Eno]

@Andrew Reid

A very good article that's right on spot about 1Dx mk 2 and Canon DSLR video strategy! Unfortunately  

[joema]

8 hours ago, Tiago Rosa-Rosso said:

I don't understand this obsession for 4k....4k is full of issues, overheating, rolling shutter and the sharpness sometimes is not flatering when filming people, not to mention the workflow issues.  The old arri alexa was 2k only, marvelous skin tones, great DR, very nice grainy noise, global shutter...

You are right that good quality 2k is superb, and most people on most display devices will not notice the difference to 4k. ABC, Fox and ESPN still broadcast exclusively in 720p/60 and few notice. You are also right that moving prematurely or reactively to 4k can entail downsides and complications.

That said, 4k is the new standard and you can often get 4k without major cost. The workflow is not necessarily that hard but this varies with the software. FCPX has built-in proxy so that makes it easy. It can be harder on Premiere but that also is getting proxy support soon.

The big immediate advantages to 4k are editorial:  It allows reframing each shot, including adding pans and zooms. You can punch in to a tighter shot, simulating a camera cut. Each frame is an 8 megapixel still, so frame grabs can sometimes substitute for a still. Most editors who have become accustomed to these capabilities don't want to go back to 2k.

[Mattias Burling]

Im just puzzled why people still are surprises when a pro stills camera meant for stills doesn't have enough video features to replace video cameras

Specially when it has something like 4k at 60fps.. Pretty advanced for a stills shooter imo.

Its one of the, if not the best, sport's photography stills cameras out there. Pretty obvious that's why they bothered with the 60fps. 

It actually makes perfect sense.

Making the camera you intend to sell to sports journalists full of features for the "Indy" crowd on the other hand would be seriously wired. 

Take the 1DC as an example, it costs way less used than a 1DX mki. Because the target audience would never buy some wierd "cinema gadget".

 

 

[Tiago Rosa-Rosso]

9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

4K is the standard of 2016 and future proof.

Furthermore 4K is the only way to get true 1080p or 2K res out of a DSLR or mirrorless camera. None of the 1080p cameras shoot 1080p. It's just a sticker on the box. They are really shooting a pixel binned or line skipped image. The exception are the full sensor readout 1080p cameras like the A7S which down-sample better on the image processor, but shooting 4K is still preferable over this as it's future proof. In most situations you also have to shoot 4K to avoid severe moire & aliasing.

So in short, 4K was necessary to move us on from the crappy line-skipping and moire era of DSLR video.

It's not so much a resolution obsession, even if you deliver 1080p, it helps to have your acquisition quality 4K.

Now we have two kinds of 4K... that from a full sensor readout is preferable for the full lens circle to get used, whilst a crop of the sensor readout is a stop-gap until the sensor & image processor tech gets better - although sometimes it has its benefits - like a Super 35mm mode on a full frame camera, and 1.3x crop (1D C) doesn't hurt as much as a 2.3!

True, rolling shutter and heat issues can occasionally bite you on some of the lower end models, but it's still in the most part preferable to have some kind of technological progress than none. Without progress, we wouldn't get through this early phase of imperfect 4K and onto better things.

The only times I avoid 4K these days is if I am shooting hours and hours of live footage and need very small file sizes, or the other aspects of the image outweigh the benefits of the alternative 4K cameras for a particular project - such as full frame RAW on the 5D Mark III with magic lantern for the best colour and keying, or high frame rate 120fps 1080p which can be lovely for certain things.

Don't get me wrong, maybe obsession is a strong word. I know that the companies that sell 4k tvs are pushing us to buy 4k cameras. And I have no doubts it will be the future. I just claim they are pushing in the wrong direction. I think 4k is easier to brand than color science, or motion, and the market is driven by marketing, by what is sellable. I'm not against 4k, and i know there are some benefits in shooting 4k, but I think the market has been driven by this push for resolution (also crazy ISO) instead of color science, motion, etc, merely because it's easier to brand and it's sellable. I would like to see a push in other directions. For me more important than resolution is motion, color, the quality of the noise, DR, and a light workflow.  And by the way A7rII and A7sII bought have overheating and rolling shutter problems and they are not lower end models. 

 

[Jimmy]

1 minute ago, duffman said:

I don't know why anyone here is still paying attention to DSLR's?

Being able to shoots stills springs to mind!

Size, lack of attention they generate, cheap batteries and various other reasons too.

[jgharding]

 

12 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Being able to shoots stills springs to mind!

Size, lack of attention they generate, cheap batteries and various other reasons too.

They still have their place in shoot arsenal, although I don't use them for video since the XC10 came out.

[forofilms]

On another note, Andrew, I applaud you for not only remaining impartial amidst this sycophantic, crony atmosphere but also for exposing the despicable system of incentivization and reprisals going on behind the scenes that compromises the integrity of competing reviewers. Thank you. It's so refreshing in this day and age, 

[sudopera]

Unless someone as a hybrid shooter is really interested in good stills/video combo, I don't really get why to even bother thinking about 5D IV. It will probably shoot cropped 4K, and previously the greatest appeal of DSLR-s over regular video cameras was FF look. I guess the price will be around 3500$, so as a video shooter if you're ok with 4K aps-c / S35 video, why even consider it when for a similar price you can buy something like JVC GY-LS300. I think this video speeks for itself.

 

[Chuck S.]

I work at a professional, independent camera store in the US.  We were primarily a still camera shop, until the last 10 years or so when decent video became available on DSLRs and mirrorless cameras.  Most of our customers are still photographers who occasionally shoot video - and I gotta tell you all - they don't give a rat's ass about 4k and video specs.  Most of these people are just shooting videos for the web for their still clients, or they are still journalists who have to shoot video now, etc.  The Nikon, Canon and Sony reps that come in here are very aware of this and I believe that this is one of the reasons why we have not seen  a flood of high end video specs and 4K in the "still" camera world.  Filmmakers want to have it all in a small DSLR or Mirrorless camera - Sony and Panasonic get very close....  I get it - I'd love to see it happen with Canon.  I think they will cave a bit to the pressure they have been getting from the filmmaking community and put some "current specs" in the 5D MKIV, but I really feel that the C100 Mark III will be the camera to watch out for (which if they continue with their past cycle should arrive in the Fall). Love or hate Canon - it is hard to argue with the image quality, color, ergonomics, and camera body features (not specs) that you get with their Cinema line.  The people that I know who use the Cinema cameras really love them......

[Brett Munoz]

Omg, hilarious. Made my morning. 

[Laurier]

Honestly I don t really see the point of still trying to shoot good video with a expensive dslr, I mean, now you can get a used red one MX or blackmagic/sony for less than 3k , or even canon pro camera .

Few years ago we didn t had choices.

But today  there are so many camera on the second hand market that will do the job better than any DSLR .

During the last 3 years I got a GX7/BMPCC/GH4/A7S, and I got tired of doing compromises, and only the BMPCC  felt like a proper video camera, the GH4 was overly complex for nothing and the VLOG is buggy slow mo was so.so , and the A7s+recorder is just a pain to move around + no slow mo + very bad rolling shutter.

I m getting a kinefinity Terra  because hopefully it can do everything and , ok it s more than 3k , but at least I feel like it something I can keep for years , with DSLR you always hope that the next generation will fix the compromise you accepted when you got it.
 

[Jimmy]

11 minutes ago, Laurier said:

But today  there are so many camera on the second hand market that will do the job better than any DSLR .

Do a better job for you.

If had to carry a camera over a glacier, would I prefer the RED One and huge tripod? Or a weather sealed 1DX-II?

[OliKMIA]

Exactly, not doubt the RED & Co are great camera but it's not an option for many of us. For my style of shooting, I need to travel light and have everything in one package. I can't handle a body with a cage, a external monitor and recorder plus all the usual cable mess around it.

[gsenroc]

3k+ for a still FF camera and people keep praying for better 8 bit compressed video quality, maybe even cropped and without zebra etc., I'm starting to think how unefficient it is to stay with Canon after seeing what Blackmagic and Kinefinity can deliver with their price.

It's so unfortunate that Canon banned Magic Lantern, no more 5D raw video on new models.

[Jimmy]

3 hours ago, duffman said:

Sorry, I was assuming we were all talking about video. 

As for the rest, there are much better options than a DSLR if those are your parameters. 

Please list the 4k/60p cameras that would be ideal for adventure shooting... I try to stay on top of these options, but must have missed a bunch.

[OliKMIA]

32 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Please list the 4k/60p cameras that would be ideal for adventure shooting... I try to stay on top of these options, but must have missed a bunch.

So far none that I know but the GH5 and A7S/R3 coming this year should fill the void. Meanwhile most Sony and Panasonic camera have offered 4K 30p for the past 2 years. Heck even cheap Xiaomi action cam manufacturer is going to introduce 4K on the new Xiaomi Yi.

Meanwhile Canon might finally wake up and give us crippled 4k with the new 5Dmk4 but who care at this point ? They'll still be 3 steps behind the rest of the industry.

[imattci89]

Regarding the video Andrew posted remarking about the flesh tones of Sony, have you guys tried Omeneo's Primers?

I find the skin tones of these S-Log2 S-Gamut based 3DLUTs to do a pretty nice job with the colours in my opinion. The primers are camera-specific. So far there's only A7r2 and A7s available.