Canon 1DX II - First Impressions and CLog Emulation

[jcs]

Did some tests with the 1DX II today. We plan to use the 1DX II with the C300 II for multicam shoots (and with the A7S II as well).

After testing the builtin profiles and getting close to something I liked with a modified Faithful profile, I created a custom picture profile using Canon's Picture Style Editor. The goal was to emulate CLog: boost shadows and pull highlights (and look decent straight out of camera). I tried a few variations and below is the result I felt was a good start:

Lens: Canon 24-105, 1/50, F5, ISO 1600, Highly Tone Priority On, custom picture profile. Full frame IPB 23.98 1080p, PADF, internal camera mic, mixed lighting (challenging LED practical lights (green bias/spike), monitor lights, and a decent LED in the background).

Thoughts: I like the camera. It does a nice job in mixed lighting, it looks pretty good out of the box and even better with a custom picture profile. RS is present but low. 4K60 plays back fine in PP CC. Transcoding to much smaller H.264 IPB 4K files at 250Mbps looks decent when not pixel peeping (mostly loses noise detail), might try to optimize further. Currently everything we create is for online 420 IPB delivery (YouTube, Vimeo).

I haven't done low light tests yet, however pulling up the shadows is very clean, and the noise grain is pleasing. Canon's full frame 1080p isn't as good as Sony's full frame (4K 100Mbps downscaled to 1080p in post). It's not just the downscale where the A7S II is better, the Canon is doing lower quality pixel binning/skipping as there is aliasing and moire (see my glasses frame edges). The 1DX II looks amazing in 4K, however it's a 1.33 crop. Thus for full frame 1080p the A7S II looks better (when RS won't cause an issue). For internet delivery and the average viewer, the difference probably isn't important. If the quality difference becomes important, we can shoot in 4K with a 1.33 crop (and purchase more hard drives). We're currently shooting with the C300 II in 50Mbps 1080p IPB- quality is more than sufficient, including for green screen (I'll post technical details and a clip in another thread).

The 1DX II uses new batteries, which are proprietary and very expensive compared to 5D3 batteries (and not currently available- should be available soon). Size wise, the 1DX II is like a 5D3 with the battery grip built in.

The AF is pretty good, it keeps tracking even when the head is turned sideways: their face detector is trained beyond just straight on, which is cool. AF noise is somewhat loud; less of an issue when not using the built in mic (same for C300 II). Canon's EF-S STM lenses can't be mounted to full frame cameras without modification, so there's currently limited options for quiet AF FF EF lenses (e.g. the Canon 40mm F2.8, 50mm F1.8, and 24-105 F3.5-5.6 EF STM)).

In summary: with a custom picture profile to boost shadows and pull highlights (attached to this post) along with Highlight Tone Priority enabled, it's possible to get close to CLog, and image quality, noise quality, skintones, RS, and AF are really nice.

 

1DX2e_Logish.pf3

[squig]

So when you say "close to CLog" does that mean the dynamic range and low light IQ isn't quite as good as the C300 MKII or 5D MK3 raw?

[jcs]

31 minutes ago, squig said:

So when you say "close to CLog" does that mean the dynamic range and low light IQ isn't quite as good as the C300 MKII or 5D MK3 raw?

This was done by eye- I don't know how Canon implements CLog internally. I created a low-contrast S-curve and a few minor color tweaks. This boosts the shadows and flattens the highlights, similar to how CLog looks (not really a log gamma, more log-ish). I can try to match CLog more carefully using the C300 II as reference. Max DR for the C300 II requires Canon Log 2, which is basically Arri LogC (along with Canon's Cinema color and "Production" matrix emulates ARRI (can use ARRI 3D LUTs etc.)).

The DR seems similar to the C300 II (haven't shot them side-by-side yet). Based on the noise so far, the 1DX II might be better than the C300 II for low light. The DR and low light performance on the C300 II and 1DX II are better than 5D3 RAW, however the 5D3 RAW can look amazing when processed with ACR, Resolve, etc. The newer cameras have lower RS vs. the 5D3. A 5D4 with 10+bit very high quality 1080p and the same DR as the 1DX II (and PDAF) would be more useful than 4K for our needs.

[lafilm]

9 hours ago, jcs said:

Did some tests with the 1DX II today. We plan to use the 1DX II with the C300 II for multicam shoots (and with the A7S II as well).

After testing the builtin profiles and getting close to something I liked with a modified Faithful profile, I created a custom picture profile using Canon's Picture Style Editor. The goal was to emulate CLog: boost shadows and pull highlights (and look decent straight out of camera). I tried a few variations and below is the result I felt was a good start:

Lens: Canon 24-105, 1/50, F5, ISO 1600, Highly Tone Priority On, custom picture profile. Full frame IPB 23.98 1080p, PADF, internal camera mic, mixed lighting (challenging LED practical lights (green bias/spike), monitor lights, and a decent LED in the background).

Thoughts: I like the camera. It does a nice job in mixed lighting, it looks pretty good out of the box and even better with a custom picture profile. RS is present but low. 4K60 plays back fine in PP CC. Transcoding to much smaller H.264 IPB 4K files at 250Mbps looks decent when not pixel peeping (mostly loses noise detail), might try to optimize further. Currently everything we create is for online 420 IPB delivery (YouTube, Vimeo).

I haven't done low light tests yet, however pulling up the shadows is very clean, and the noise grain is pleasing. Canon's full frame 1080p isn't as good as Sony's full frame (4K 100Mbps downscaled to 1080p in post). It's not just the downscale where the A7S II is better, the Canon is doing lower quality pixel binning/skipping as there is aliasing and moire (see my glasses frame edges). The 1DX II looks amazing in 4K, however it's a 1.33 crop. Thus for full frame 1080p the A7S II looks better (when RS won't cause an issue). For internet delivery and the average viewer, the difference probably isn't important. If the quality difference becomes important, we can shoot in 4K with a 1.33 crop (and purchase more hard drives). We're currently shooting with the C300 II in 50Mbps 1080p IPB- quality is more than sufficient, including for green screen (I'll post technical details and a clip in another thread).

The 1DX II uses new batteries, which are proprietary and very expensive compared to 5D3 batteries (and not currently available- should be available soon). Size wise, the 1DX II is like a 5D3 with the battery grip built in.

The AF is pretty good, it keeps tracking even when the head is turned sideways: their face detector is trained beyond just straight on, which is cool. AF noise is somewhat loud; less of an issue when not using the built in mic (same for C300 II). Canon's EF-S STM lenses can't be mounted to full frame cameras without modification, so there's currently limited options for quiet AF FF EF lenses (e.g. the Canon 40mm F2.8, 50mm F1.8, and 24-105 F3.5-5.6 EF STM)).

In summary: with a custom picture profile to boost shadows and pull highlights (attached to this post) along with Highlight Tone Priority enabled, it's possible to get close to CLog, and image quality, noise quality, skintones, RS, and AF are really nice.

 

1DX2e_Logish.pf3

jcs - Thanks very much for your tests. 

However, would you please do a LOW LIGHT video test on the 1DX ii??  (in 24p 4K)

This is the biggest question most people want answered. 

Especially, compared to the Sony A7S ii, and the Canon 1D C.

I've read ZERO noise until 8,000 ISO. Is this true??

And if so, is it also true you're maxed out to 12,500 ISO in 24p 4K??

And if this is true, what exactly does 12,500 ISO (24p 4K) look like on this new camera??

Workable on a narrative film project?? (Big Screen).

Thank you!!!

[BrorSvensson]

2 hours ago, lafilm said:

 

I've read ZERO noise until 8,000 ISO. Is this true??

 

no camera at any iso has zero noise

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Trying the beast next to the 1DC too. 

It's a very very clean lowlight video camera. A tiny teeeeny bit cleaner than the 1Dc, i.e., Not as clean as the Sony A7s original at 1080p for example (that was an insane mode) in terms of going 25.600 50.000 ISOs but close, I'd call it a second best in that regard. But the noise is much finer and more filmic due to the MUCH higher bitrate so some might argue it's better in lowlight performance. In anyway, this camera doesn't set a new standard for high ISO performance of any magical zero noise tricks, just a very very clean lowlight camera capabale of shooting at 12800/26500 ISO and deliver fantastic 4K footage. 

[The Chris]

I got the impression from a short thread on Fred Miranda that you can use old 1dx batteries in the new cam.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1421778

[jcs]

4K 60p frame grab using my CLog emulation, colored in PP CC, then enhanced as I would a still in PS when going for max saturation/pop.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Will downlod the Picture Style and get back at you. I alwyas found Canon PS editor an absolute shit! would be surprised if you got something good out of it, I've tried and tried and tried! Hope you made it cusomizabe if I wanted to tweak. 

Will post frames comparison of your C-Log3 VS. Cinestyle on the 1DC later tonight.

[jcs]

I found the latest version of Canon's PS editor, 1.16.20 to be OK. I made the curve intuitively, and pulled red and yellow saturation down a bit. You can edit it.

[jcs]

Full 4K max quality JPG: http://www.brightland.com/t/JacquiTree2b4K.jpg

[karoliina]

Looks absolutely nice. Beats GH4 down to under ground.

[jcs]

Dynamic range test- shaded dark complexion backlit with bright sky: slight clipping on histogram during shoot, noisy shadows (using my custom log-ish profile with HTP):

Processed in Premiere CC (including Neat Video for NR, then added a little noise and local contrast), then Photoshopped a bit more (going for intense colors- tends to be easier to do on Canon devices):

For a real shoot would be best to add some fill light.

[zuku]

Do you think it has as much DR as a C100 shooting in Clog?

[jcs]

33 minutes ago, zuku said:

Do you think it has as much DR as a C100 shooting in Clog?

Good question. The 1DX II's sensor has more DR (about 2 stops? (~14 vs. ~12?)). The C100 II creates small very high quality 1080p while the 1DX II creates very large 4K files (1DX II's 1080p isn't nearly the quality of the C100 II's 1080p, however it's still pretty good and is full frame (vs. 1.5 crop)). Since a test was done showing the 1DC using HTP and exposed -1 EV performed similarly to CLog, the 1DX II may have a slight DR advantage over the C100 II, though NR may be needed when bringing up the shadows in post (or fixing them when using a log-like picture profile) as I did in this shot. 

[jcs]

Daylight 4K 60p test (Clog emulation + HTP):

 

 

[jcs]

The ~$100 Canon AC Adapter Kit ACK-E4 from the 1DX works fine in the 1DX II for video, including 4K 60p. The 1DX II's AC Adapter AC-E19 ($400) + DR-E19 DC Coupler ($250) = $650 provides higher speed stills (similar to the 1DX vs. 1DX II batteries).