Canon 1DX-II vs. 1DC - Which one would you buy?

[DBounce]

17 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

@karoliina  ... Savannah cat is way too fast for Canon's AF.

 Not at all, you just need to set the right AF mode for the subject.

[Jimmy]

We'll see.... Filming savannah cat is like filming a speeding bullet

[independent]

14 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

Of course you can, I've shot several documentaries all manual. All single operator. Are you guys kidding? Never heard of a "cameraman"? 

Then you should know how hard it is. With a big sensor and a still lens? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to keep unrehearsed movements in focus, while framing the shot and moving the camera?

No offense, but you're full of shit. It's easy as being a "Cameraman"? Yeah, if you're shooting on a documentary camera - but not something like the 1DC, which is what we're talking about. Ever hear of a "focus puller?" There's a reason why there's a specialized job for this task. A focus puller has one of the most important jobs on any film shoot - it's one of the hardest skills. And anybody who actually has experience on a film shoot would know this obvious fact.

Either you're talking out of your ass or you're the best focus puller in the world. Or, in your words, just a "cameraman."

17 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

If you can't focus a camera by yourself its time to start practicing. 

If you've never heard of a focus puller, it's time to start keeping your mouth shut and start learning. 

[User]

Just now, independent said:

Then you should know how hard it is. With a big sensor and a still lens? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to keep unrehearsed movements in focus, while framing the shot and moving the camera?

No offense, but you're full of shit. It's easy as being a "Cameraman"? Yeah, if you're shooting on a documentary camera - but not something like the 1DC, which is what we're talking about. Ever hear of a "focus puller?" There's a reason why there's a specialized job for this task. A focus puller has one of the most important jobs on any film shoot - it's one of the hardest skills. And anybody who actually has experience on a film shoot would know this obvious fact.

Either you're talking out of your ass or you're the best focus puller in the world. Or, in your words, just a "cameraman."

If you've never heard of a focus puller, it's time to start keeping your mouth shut and start learning. 

Man, some folks are really 'into' it.

[independent]

Eh, it's one thing to be condescending, it's another to be ignorant and condescending. That just spreads misinformation. There are reasons to choose the 1DC over the 1DX, but the pretense that the 1DC is super easy to focus for video and if you can't, something is wrong with you? Just horseshit. 

[User]

Just now, independent said:

Eh, it's one thing to be condescending, it's another to be ignorant and condescending. That just spreads misinformation. There are reasons to choose the 1DC over the 1DX, but the pretense that the 1DC is super easy to focus for video and if you can't, something is wrong with you? Just horseshit. 

Well that settles that then.

Now can we get back to the front?

[BenEricson]

10 minutes ago, User said:

Well that settles that then.

Now can we get back to the front?

Yes, 1DX keeps stuff in focus, in slow motion. The 1DC shoots flat.

[Kino]

All this discussion about handheld documentary shooting is really failing to identify the revolutionary nature of DPAF technology as implemented in the 1DX II. Certainly, achieving critical focus in split-second time and undertaking rack/follow focus will be much easier with DPAF than any manual method, even with a great monitor that has focus peaking.  

But the truly impressive capabilities of DPAF that would be very costly if not impossible to emulate through any other means include remote focus control and completely autonomous focusing. For me, the fact that DPAF can keep focus on a moving or stationary subject as I perform a tracking or stabilizer shot is priceless. Moreover, the touchscreen focus control is also accessible through a WiFi tablet application that has a range of over 300 feet. The Mo Ming BTS video in particular demonstrated this ability to control focus pulls remotely during live shooting (using the optional $600 WiFi unit):

 

 

 

[Mattias Burling]

6 hours ago, independent said:

If you've never heard of a focus puller, it's time to start keeping your mouth shut and start learning. 

Yes, please, teach me everyting about how to become dependent on lots of stuff instead of getting the job done. Speaking of horseshit...

If you can't pull focus on the run with a 1DC you need practice, not a focus puller. No need to be a dick just because thousands of people out there can pull focus on everything from DSLRs to BMPCCs. 

No need to debate this, I just wanted to point out to newcomers that your opinion was just that, an opinion. 

[jcs]

Yes, the 1DX II's touch screen PDAF is very useful. The tracking is decent, though appears to use some form of feature/corner tracking such that when the object changes significantly, it completely loses track of the object. For example, I was filming a show dog walking on hind legs and spinning. After locking track on his face, when he fell down, the track was completely lost and focus immediately went to the background. This ruins the shot. Instead, the algorithm should default to tracking near the last track at the same spatial depth (the dog was still in focus- it should have stayed and picked up a new track based on the pixels already in focus). I write image processing algorithms for my day job, and I'm surprised they didn't implement it the right way.

We also use the C300 II, and I'm finding the 1DX II more useful for location shoots as it's much smaller and lighter than the C300 II (fully rigged with top and side handles). In 4K, the 1DX II is also a 1.33 crop vs 1.5 for the C300 II (1DX II is FF in 1080p). While the C300 II has Canon Log 2, which produces ARRI-like highlight handling (and along with other settings has similar colors so ARRI 3D LUTs can be used etc.), it cannot do touch-screen AF as with the 1DX II. However, it can do WIFI device touch AF with the WFT-E6A (the 1DX II requires the newer WFT-E8).

One nice thing about the C300 II is the 1080p is excellent, and the 50Mbps IPB is not only very small, but still looks great for low-camera motion shots. The 1DX II's 30Mbps 1080p is good, but not really 1080p (perhaps someone will do resolution tests) and has aliasing and Moire (note the C300 II has aliasing and Moire on very fine detail fabrics, for example. Something else to look forward to improvement for the next cameras (capturing at 8K (or more) and filtered down-sampling to reduce and/or eliminate aliasing).

In summary, the C300 II is a superior camera to the 1DC in every way (except perhaps size/stealth and crop factor), and we find the 1DX II to be a superior camera than the C300 II for certain types of shoots. The 1DC is still an amazing camera, however the 1DX II is superior in real-world shooting (remember shooting -1EV + using a log-like profile (Cinestyle or your own) + HTP gets you the same level of highlight detail as the 1DC in CLog (see earlier post in this thread showing the results in actual video with the 1DC). PDAF is indeed a massive help for focus, but still needs work (could be improved via firmware, though Canon doesn't do firmware updates very often). For the show dog example, manual focusing with a single operator (handheld) is nearly impossible as both zoom and focus must be done at the same time (with a balanced shoulder rig and lots of practice it should be possible, however will never be as good as a computer (when the software works properly ;)).

[BenEricson]

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

If you can't pull focus on the run with a 1DC you need practice, not a focus puller. No need to be a dick just because thousands of people out there can pull focus on everything from DSLRs to BMPCCs. 

This is the worst argument and everyone who tries to defend it sounds foolish. Maybe we're not talking about the same type of shooting, but documentary shooting/run and gun is extremely difficult, and anything to aid in that is huge. We're not talking about shooting static shots of grass in the wind or even film where you could use focus markers. We're talking about run and gun doc work where you need to get as much coverage as you can in a very short amount of time. I'm not saying pulling focus is impossible, but the "thousands of people," comment is ridiculous. 

This is why a black magic pocket camera and a bag full of step rings and some ND filters does not cut it for a lot of work. People think auto focus = amateur, not the case with these cameras… 

[Mattias Burling]

9 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

This is the worst argument and everyone who tries to defend it sounds foolish. Maybe we're not talking about the same type of shooting, but documentary shooting/run and gun is extremely difficult, and anything to aid in that is huge. We're not talking about shooting static shots of grass in the wind or even film where you could use focus markers. We're talking about run and gun doc work where you need to get as much coverage as you can in a very short amount of time. I'm not saying pulling focus is impossible, but the "thousands of people," comment is ridiculous. 

This is why a black magic pocket camera and a bag full of step rings and some ND filters does not cut it for a lot of work. People think auto focus = amateur, not the case with these cameras… 

You are right. The genre of documentary was invented in 2016. Before that it didn't exist. TV news does not exist. 100% of the people here that shoot events etc use AF 100% of the time. Every documentary ever made is AF or with a huge crew. This is fact and thank you for teaching me. I will call my latest client and tell them the doc I did is illegal because I didn't use AF and must be deleted. I'm sorry for saying MF is usable. It was a lie. MF is only for Nazis.

[Django]

lol @ MF vs AF.. FWIW here is what Philip Bloom had to say about Canon's DPAF:

http://www.youtube.com/v/98fwWKXDGqc

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Django said:

lol @ MF vs AF.. FWIW here is what Philip Bloom had to say about Canon's DPAF:

http://www.youtube.com/v/98fwWKXDGqc

I approve of  this message!

But I might add, the AF on the 1DX Mkii is far superior to the AF on the C100. Anyone who thinks that the DPAF on the 1DX Mkii is not a huge leap forward and a true game changer has simply not used the AF on the 1DX Mkii. So they are not speaking from experience. And if you are a single operator using a gimbal, where you cannot touch the camera because both hands are occupied... well then, you really only have three choices:

1. Shoot stopped down so everything is in focus.

2. Use a camera that has the new DPAF built in and nail the entire take.

3. Shoot as normal and try to maintain the same distance from the subject and accept that some of your shots will be out of focus.

DPAF is so good that I find dust gathering on my manual lenses. Whereas in the past I heavily favored them.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the DPAF on the 1DX MkII is a GAME CHANGER for productions without a focus puller that use a gimbal, or in a Run and Gun environment.

[User]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the DPAF on the 1DX MkII is a GAME CHANGER

GAME CHANGER!?! Well...that settles that then.

[hmcindie]

7 hours ago, BenEricson said:

This is the worst argument and everyone who tries to defend it sounds foolish. Maybe we're not talking about the same type of shooting, but documentary shooting/run and gun is extremely difficult, and anything to aid in that is huge.

What are you talking about? It's quite easy (as someone who has shot documentary work with the 5dII and the original 7d, also with the dvx100 and small sensor cameras without any external help). Maybe you should need to ... you know. Learn your craft? How do you think people have focused on documentaries until now?

[User]

Riding one's own frame, focus and focal length are standard protocol to a doc camera person. End of story.

[Jimmy]

Any chance of steering this back onto something that is not tediously boring and will clearly not be resolved?

I think we can all agree that DPAF is pretty cool tech, but might not be priority for everyone.

[DBounce]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

Any chance of steering this back onto something that is not tediously boring and will clearly not be resolved?

I think we can all agree that DPAF is pretty cool tech, but might not be priority for everyone.

Agreed, the 1DX Mkii can output clean 10 bit 4.2.2 Full HD @120 fps though I have not used this feature, I am considering it with an external recorder for some work.

[Jimmy]

@DBounce

10 bit? Is that confirmed.... That is equally great news and sad news (as c-log and 10 bit would be perfect!).