Canon 1DX-II vs. 1DC - Which one would you buy?

[User]

27 minutes ago, DBounce said:

I am considering it with an external recorder for some work.

Ego confirmed. Awaiting next update.

[forofilms]

9 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

 MF is only for Nazis.

The Nazis only used MF? Can someone confirm this?

[BenEricson]

7 hours ago, hmcindie said:

Maybe you should need to ... you know. Learn your craft? How do you think people have focused on documentaries until now?

I'm talking about holding focus on a moving subject at f2. I don't care what docs you've done, why do you think vice uses the c100/c300. They want the shallow DOF look in a run and gun situation. You need all the tools you can get. People also produce great content without a waveform monitor, peaking, zebras, XLR audio in, or even ND filters... Why deny an amazing tool like AF. AF/IS 24-105 is just amazing to work with on the c series cameras, as I imagine it will be on the 1DXii as well.

14 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

You are right. The genre of documentary was invented in 2016. Before that it didn't exist. TV news does not exist. 100% of the people here that shoot events etc use AF 100% of the time. Every documentary ever made is AF or with a huge crew. This is fact and thank you for teaching me. I will call my latest client and tell them the doc I did is illegal because I didn't use AF and must be deleted. I'm sorry for saying MF is usable. It was a lie. MF is only for Nazis.

Nice.

[hmcindie]

23 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

I'm talking about holding focus on a moving subject at f2. I don't care what docs you've done...

I've hold focus on a moving subject at f1.2 on a 50mm with full frame. On a Ronin.

It's actually easier than with f8 on a small sensor camera, atleast you can see clearly when it's off. Focusing on an XF100 was harder. So I have no idea about the "hardness" you are talking about.

Would it be easier on the 1DxII? Sure, I'll probably get to try it soon. And don't get me wrong, I do enjoy Canon cameras way more than Sony stuff. I edited a commercial today and I hated the colors coming out of the A7sII, externally recorded slog to 4k prores. I didn't shoot it myself but had to do a "low-budget" grade and it was miserable.

[Jimmy]

What was the moving object.... a tectonic plate?

F1.2 on a 50mm is about 2" of focus leeway!

[BenEricson]

35 minutes ago, hmcindie said:

I've hold focus on a moving subject at f1.2 on a 50mm with full frame. On a Ronin.

It's actually easier than with f8 on a small sensor camera, atleast you can see clearly when it's off. Focusing on an XF100 was harder. So I have no idea about the "hardness" you are talking about.

On May 18, 2016 at 11:23 PM, hmcindie said:

I was doing a dolly shot while rack focusing on a target with the FS7. Had to do multiple, multiple takes to get it on and this was with two guys on the camera, one pushing it on a dolly, the other focusing. But because we were going in/out with zooming at the same time, it was quite difficult.. I have a feeling a 1DxII would've just locked it on immediately without any hassle.

 

That's the "hardness" I am talking about.

[DBounce]

2 hours ago, hmcindie said:

I've hold focus on a moving subject at f1.2 on a 50mm with full frame. On a Ronin.

It's actually easier than with f8 on a small sensor camera, atleast you can see clearly when it's off. Focusing on an XF100 was harder. So I have no idea about the "hardness" you are talking about.

Would it be easier on the 1DxII? Sure, I'll probably get to try it soon. And don't get me wrong, I do enjoy Canon cameras way more than Sony stuff. I edited a commercial today and I hated the colors coming out of the A7sII, externally recorded slog to 4k prores. I didn't shoot it myself but had to do a "low-budget" grade and it was miserable.

Have any footage of this? Would love to see it.

[User]

27 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Have any footage of this? Would love to see it.

As if.

[independent]

On May 25, 2016 at 0:20 AM, Mattias Burling said:

Yes, please, teach me everyting about how to become dependent on lots of stuff instead of getting the job done. Speaking of horseshit...

If you can't pull focus on the run with a 1DC you need practice, not a focus puller. No need to be a dick just because thousands of people out there can pull focus on everything from DSLRs to BMPCCs. 

No need to debate this, I just wanted to point out to newcomers that your opinion was just that, an opinion. 

That's exactly the problem, which you're contributing to. Some jobs are incredibly hard - if not impossible - if you underestimate the difficulty of focusing unrehearsed movement. 

Speaking of newcomers, it would be a disservice to any novices to claim that you can "pull focus on the run" with "just practice." Because you can read minds and anticipate whichever way your subject will go? 

Amazing. So all this time, filmmakers have been using tape measures, focus marks, blocking, assistant cameramen, specific monitors for confirming focus....

When all they needed was practice? 

Trust me, you're being the dick here, because here in New York City we'd tell you straight up you're full of shit. Even the best dedicated focus pullers in the industry miss some shots for live events and documentary work because it's spontaneous movement, you can be shooting at a wide spot under practical lighting, etc. And they're amazing at a tough job, and they earn their keep.

It's a lot more respectful to recognize that these cameras are all tools, many of which have their limitations, but to know them and make informed decisions. 

 

 

 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

Yes DPAF IS a game changer. There have been very little features that deserve this designation. The Video feature on the Nikon d90/Canon 5DII, Large sensor Camcorder manufacturing (FS100, FS700, AF100,C300,C100, etc), Image stabilization technology in lenses, and recently in Body in the New panasonics and olympus, and lately the Canon Dual Pixel AF. 

A game changing feature means it's going to change how the game is played, how the cameras films and videos are shot, making them a WHOLE lot easier than what it actually is, and we'll see a LOT of new talent and camera users post content just because they can easily nail focus like a focus puller, otherwise they've been just unable to make focus adjustments shooting motion thus unable to make large sensor film/cinema. I at least see that most of my country enthusiats are putt off shooting video due to Manual focus on DSLRs. Only the very minority of us can do it. It's a new step towards the democratization of filmmaking by making tools available and making success be based on content not hand talent. Auto exposure will also get ridiculously good that shooters won't even need to learn how to expose properly, Nikons implementation of ISO riding on fone steps to change iris is absolutely perfect, I'd use it in a heart beat. And Image Stabilization wil make shooters not require a heavy expensive rig in order to get steady cinematic movement, 

 

point is, technology is evolving and it's going towards making video easier to shoot for consumers. 

 

You can still use primes with rigs, remote FF, measuring tape, manual exposure. It's not like they're removing these features. 

 

And for those linking the insignificance of DPAF to the ability of shooters to shoot manual focus for years, That's simply not historically correct. They all shot tiny sensor and tiny lenses manual focus, only post 2010 people started shooting manual focus on large sensor cameras like s35/FF, and prior to 2010, it was exclusive to highend focus pullers on conema film cameras, the idea of using the focus ring and habdholding a s35 film camera would have been considered a joke just a few years ago because it IS HARD. 

DPAF solves a major limitation for the majority of video shooters. 

 

Aside from this boring DPAF conversation which ia now over as we know the facts already and just repeating (I need it vs I don't need it) 

 

let me remind you again the 1Dx vs 1Dc: 

 

-60p4K vs. 25p4K 

-120p HD mode internal conforming 

-DPAF with Touchscreen using EF glass

-Slightly better lowlight performance

 

While the 1DC has:

-Slightly larger sensor area

-Higher DR (1-2 stops in highlights?)

-Canon Log colour science and DR and zero sharpening and smooth roll off= more organic look

-S35 mode HD C-Log with the same quality of C100/C300 with small file sizes = amazing documentary/wedding/interview mode that isn't on the 1DX

-Lifted 25:59 seconds EU TAX LAW 

_______________________________

 

I have a question if anyone owns EF-S Lenses. Can they be used to shoot video on the 1DC/1DX considering they're s35 crops of the sensor used for 4K and 1sc s35 mode? 

I know for stills the mirror might interfere with the back lens plastic element, but what about in video/live viewmode without lifting the mirror up or down? 

I ask this because I se Canon STM lensea on the C100 and C300 and there's simply nothing like them. A damn sharp 10-18mm IS, 55-250mm IS with identical sharpness to 70-200mm f2.8, the IS on STM lenses is well beyond any Canon lens, ridiculous for video and approaches IBIS, totally handholdable at 250mm APS-C crop! and also the new all rounder 18-135mm IS STM , my favourite, all these lenses have a smooth cine like 270 degree focus throw (yea, and linear, no speed consistency sony crap) and they're silent so will particularly be useful for DPAF. I hope these lenses could work. They're my workhorse of glass right now for s35. If they don't mount on 1DC/1DX somehow even with a mod I'd have to find another set of glass (an ultra wide with IS, sharp tele with IS, sharp 50mm AF prime and an 18-135mm equivalent with IS and AF) 

Full Frame lenses with Quiet STM DPAF compatible lenses are:

-Canon 24-105mm STM IS (which will be my 18-135mm replacement shall I find no other way to mount it) 

-Canon 50mm F/1.8 STM 

-Canon 40mm F/2.8 STM 

 

So if can someone try out an EF-s lens on one of theae bodies (preferabllly an STM with liveview On (don't wory about mirror interference it just stops if it touches something and tell you to reset, I interfere with mirror movement with my hands all the time when cleaning the chip, tens of times on low end Canons, higher end ones are even stronger) 

I wish we can use APS-C glass from Canon on these cameras 4K and s35 mode.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[karoliina]

Ebrahim, I doubt that it EF-S would work. I once almost broke my 5D by attempting to put EF-S on it by mistake. Keeping mirror up while shooting with EF-S, if works, is asking for trouble. Camera goes to power save mode and boom the mirror box is broken...

On 24. toukokuuta 2016 at 6:44 PM, Jimmy said:

@karoliina  ... Savannah cat is way too fast for Canon's AF.

DPAF is excellent for shooting people. For shooting cats, it is still good, but not perfect and sometimes loses focus because the face detection is not tuned for cat face. In my video the focus is lost in the shot the cat walks towards the camera because of getting too close to the camera (less than minimum focusing distance), these were all shot with 70-200. But I have shots were the focus was lost because Canon's algorithm disagreed the cat would be subject of interest on the scene.

Maybe AI/neural network based AF will solve this kind of problems sometime in the future. Knowing Canon, I would be positively surprised if 1DX3 would have it.

[hmcindie]

8 hours ago, User said:

As if.

Why so negative? 5:26 was a 50mm f1.2 shot with a canon 5d shooting raw on a ronin-m.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob9td6Ic2f8

 

3 hours ago, independent said:

That's exactly the problem, which you're contributing to. Some jobs are incredibly hard - if not impossible - if you underestimate the difficulty of focusing unrehearsed movement. 

Yeah, you'll get some out-of-focus moments here and there. But they're kinda cool too? I've never really been that concerned about little moments where the focus is off. It's a documentary, it's not supposed to be perfect, that's the beauty of it.

[User]

Just now, hmcindie said:

Why so negative?

Yul Brynner wouldn't 'love to see' anything except himself in a mirror, naked with a photocopy of a camera brochure.

[Kino]

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 11:28 PM, Mattias Burling said:

MF is only for Nazis.

I think it is ironic that these jokes about the Nazis and MF are actually true. The famous Arriflex 35 that became a standard film industry camera after WWII originated in Nazi Germany. It was the first 35mm motion picture camera to allow for reflex focusing.

So, yes, when it comes to motion picture cameras, the Nazis perfected manual focusing.

Still, I prefer the precise control of MF for hand-held documentaries, even if it makes me a bit of a camera "Nazi."

Here is an example of the 1DC in a documentary setting that shows the value of manual focusing for stylistic effect:

 

[sam]

18 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

 

I have a question if anyone owns EF-S Lenses. Can they be used to shoot video on the 1DC/1DX considering they're s35 crops of the sensor used for 4K and 1sc s35

 

Yeah, EF-S lenses can be used.  I have put the 17-55 on the 1dc.  Super35 mode has very faint vignetting on the wide end, but I would imagine the vignetting varies from unnoticeable to acceptable, depending on the user.  In 4k, your looking out a port hole until about 50mm.   Image stabilizing works fine, as does every other electronic feature.  

To mount, simply remove the plastic surrounding the lens on its mount. 

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

The 1DXII, just like the 1DC, has an HDMI output that sends a 1080p YUV 8bit, 4:2:2 uncompressed signal, up to 60 frames per second. 

I.e., the camera outputs the same signal as the internal recording is set to. 

Using an HDMI recorder from Atomos,Blackmagic, Oddysey, only gets you a maximum recording of HD. The camera doesn't send 4K. 

These recorders record in ProRes codecs. ProRes LT being 8bit 4:2:2 300ish Mbps, ProRes HQ being 10bit 4:2:2 500ish mbps, 

If you use ProRes HQ, you will not get 10bit, just an 8bit signal wrapped in a 10bit wrapper, but you will get a more computer friendly codec to work with vs MJPEG, AGAIN only in HD. 

 

Bottom line, since the 1DXII doesn't have the s35 HD mode of the 1DC, and that mode was the only way to get high quality HD in small files to make it usable for weddings and docs, an external recorder for the 1DX II will give you a similar mode. You set the internal recording to 4K 1.3x crop, and the HDMI output is a 1.3x HD image that's INSANELY sharp and high quality, and you can record that to small ProRes LT files making this camera capable of high quality HD shooting just like the 1DC. It's the best set up for using the 1DX II in a wedding/documentary/interview as you don't want the humongous 4K MJPEG and don't want the poor FF HD. And it also solves the problems of not having peaking and zebras and waveform and all the good stuff. So it's a great buy.

 

Best one at the moment (and I've tried all) is the Atomos Ninja Blade (now has a higher end HDR panel), a 500$ish monitor recorder, the 5" suits the 1D body while 7" is just not good for it unless rigged. My ninja blade on top of 1DC hotshoe is a great set up actually. The Blackmagic I've tried before picking up the blade is also nice, but records to SD cards, and SSDs on the blade are much nicer and cheaper to work with, plus battery is much better, and it talks better to the 1DC as in receive record trigger and stop and timecode and switch between frame rates and resolutions seamlessly while the BM seemed to struggle. The BM has 60p however if you need that. I don't. The internal 4K 60p on the 1DXII is the way to get awesome slow motion. The 120p is soft as far as I can tell and using the 60p mode seems like the better choice, even if I'll twixtor it to 120p. Just a massive quality drop from 1:1 4K 60p 800mbps 4:2:2 to 1080p 120p 90mbps 4:2:0 lineskipped.

 

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 4:53 PM, DBounce said:

Agreed, the 1DX Mkii can output clean 10 bit 4.2.2 Full HD @120 fps though I have not used this feature, I am considering it with an external recorder for some work.

Previouas comment

11 hours ago, sam said:

lense used.   . I havelemnu17-5Chainsaw5 on the 1d c.  Supanter35 mode has very faint. on the wide end, blensesut I would imagine the vignetting varies from unnoticeable to acceptable, depending on the user.  In 4k, your looking out a port hole until about 50mm.   Image stabilizing works fine, as does every other electronic feature.  

To mount, simply remove the plastic surrounding the lens on its mount. 

How and what did you cut the little round plastic protrusion with? I am considering cutting it from all my STM lenses. If they just mount they'll be great for the 1DC APS-C mode and 1DX 4K mode. But Canon seem to put this little protrusion to Have market segmentatio  N rather than a real reason. Chainsaw While having the lens zoomed in to keep the lenS elements inside/away? Knife? 

[Andrew Reid]

4 hours ago, Ebrahim Saadawi said:

Bottom line, since the 1DXII doesn't have the s35 HD mode of the 1DC, and that mode was the only way to get high quality HD in small files to make it usable for weddings and docs, an external recorder for the 1DX II will give you a similar mode. You set the internal recording to 4K 1.3x crop, and the HDMI output is a 1.3x HD image that's INSANELY sharp and high quality, and you can record that to small ProRes LT files making this camera capable of high quality HD shooting just like the 1DC.

The 1.3x crop 1080p HDMI from the 1D C is the best 1080p I've ever seen.

The 1.5x crop Super35 1080p internally is sharp and detailed, but you can get that elsewhere too so it's not as unique as the 1.3x

The full frame 1080/24p is similar to the 1D X and 5D3, almost identical in fact, i.e. mediocre, but would have come to life if Magic Lantern had developed raw for the camera.

The 1080/60p is pure shit.

So 1.3x crop 4K or the full pixel readout 1080p over HDMI is the way to go on 1D C and the quality of it definitely beats the 1D X Mark II, which I believe still pixel bins for 1080p like a $400 camera.

[Luke Mason]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The 1.3x crop 1080p HDMI from the 1D C is the best 1080p I've ever seen.

The 1.5x crop Super35 1080p internally is sharp and detailed, but you can get that elsewhere too so it's not as unique as the 1.3x

The full frame 1080/24p is similar to the 1D X and 5D3, almost identical in fact, i.e. mediocre, but would have come to life if Magic Lantern had developed raw for the camera.

The 1080/60p is pure shit.

So 1.3x crop 4K or the full pixel readout 1080p over HDMI is the way to go on 1D C and the quality of it definitely beats the 1D X Mark II, which I believe still pixel bins for 1080p like a $400 camera.

This was shot entirely using 1080/60p with C-Log on 1DC, with proper handling, it's nowhere near "pure shit".

 

[dbp]

I'll never understand that when a new tool is released to make life easier, there's a weird backlash. So what if people have been making due without it for years? If it makes life easier and makes the practice of what you're doing (in this case, pulling focus) more consistent and reliable, why not embrace it? 

It's just a tool. Don't use it if you don't want to or feel like you don't need to, but when manufacturers give us more options and open up more creative possibilities, it should always be celebrated IMO.  

[BenEricson]

2 hours ago, Luke Mason said:

This was shot entirely using 1080/60p with C-Log on 1DC, with proper handling, it's nowhere near "pure shit".

 

Exactly. It is proven time and time again that color is more important than sharpness. It would be sharper with the A7S, but the color would be "pure shit."