An adventure into the Panasonic GX85/80 begins - and a look at the Leica Nocticron for Micro Four Thirds

[fuzzynormal]

16 minutes ago, alanpoiuyt said:

Pretty harsh...help and share with each other and maybe not to bash. Just grabbed my one-day-old camera on my way to the Bug Fair to mess around and thought I'd share. Hope it was helpful to some to point out some of it's strengths and limitations. 

Sorry for the lack of tact.  I was heavy on the rhetoric.  Good on you for calling me out on it.  To be fair, I've done exactly the same thing in the past to feel out new gear, and made a bit of a mess of it. 

https://vimeo.com/122338262 password="password"

But, I did mention "user error" because I do think it's important that folks understand viewers may be seeing that rather than limitations of the camera. 

On the other hand, I do agree it's great to shoot wild with something and see what happens.  Sometimes, as an online viewer, it's difficult to discern if it's the gear making mistakes or the shooter.  Sometimes it's both.  Anyway, it's not a knock against anyone's craft and ability, just a reminder to understand that what you see online is not always what you get.  

[jonpais]

On June 3, 2016 at 5:49 AM, AnthonyWithNoH said:

Haven't shot any footage yet, these are just my first impressions. Surprised that there is no standalone charger or body lens cap, not a big deal though since they can be bought separately if needed. Really wish I could charge the camera off USB while it's on, that way batteries can be an after thought with a large portable USB in the hotshoe. I'm not seeing a 23.976 mode, only 24 - could this be problematic for syncing with Canon DSLR footage? I used 24 on the GH4 for a long time and I think I noticed some drifting with long clips so I switched out of the 24hz Film Mode, though I think the most recent plural eyes is suppose to correct for this. The EVF is pretty bad! Makes me think I'd likely suffer from eye problems if I actually depended on it, suppose I've been spoiled by the GH4 and A7 series. The body has a nice weight to it that I didn't expect and I like the look of the silver trim that I went with. Coming from a GH4 the shutter, aperture and ISO buttonlayout feels a bit awkward to me... Especially the ISO, but I guess that's mostly do to the nature of the camera. Glad they used plastic instead of rubber for the back dial as my GH4 one seems to be whithering away. The IBIS is amazing... I love being able to take my Sigma 50 Art and get shots that look like they are on a slider while using my hands. Assuming I wish they had 1080p 50mbps instead of just 20... Also no variable frame that automatically slows the footage down in camera, but these are expected based on the G7. Glad they left the adjust feature in the white balance menu, that's a selling point for me. Going to have to test my 70-200 2.8 IS II and other lenses next. Anyone have any requests?

Anthony- are you referring to the Sigma 50mm f/1.4? If so, this is incredible news!

[sanveer]

I had said this long ago, but I guess Panasonic has/ had its reasons.

Panasonic needs a better codec to handle video. Like a 4-2-2 version of H.264. They should probably add 4-2-2 internal on the GH5 and get it to the $1999-2499 price. They could add some good preamps and better low light to justify the price increase. Also, they need Codecs of upto 200Mbps on all interchangeable lens cameras Including the GX85. And Log Profiles on All ILCs too. And try and explore accessories for the Hot Shoe Mount, like Sony's mic attachments on its A7 series. 

Also, Panasonic needs a Lot of f1.2 and f1.4 lenses, especially with Auto-Focus and Stabilization (including 24mm, 35mm, 50mm and 100mm Full Frame Equivalent). The f1.2 line could be Premium Lenses and have more stops of stabilization (like the Olympics 300mm f4). 

Also, I believe that the M4/3 sensor can Easily handle 27MP resolutions, if the 1 Inch sensors can do impressive 20MP resolutions. A lot of the M4/3 limitations are due to the fact that Panasonic outsources its sensors (and also doesn't specify it's requirements and only picks up sensors from the shelf). Either Panasonic starts telling Sony to get serious about the M4/3 lineup or find a new sensor maker or makes its own sensors. 

And obviously the fact that Panasonic wants to protect an Imaginary C100 kind of range that it has (DVX200?) May be one of the reasons it's not bringing a 4-2-2 codec on the GH5. I think a price increase could justify it.

The GX85 is an excellent camera for the buck. It does resolve a Lot more detail than other 16mp Panasonic cameras and I suspect it is as much for the lack of shutter shock as it is for the lack of an anti-aliasing filter. Though only the Olympus and Leica Primes may help you notice the difference in resolution in large prints. The Panasonic Zooms  (like all kit zooms) are average lenses, on which you won't be able to notice the difference. 

[bunk]

15 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

Anyone with LUMIX cameras, I welcome you to confirm this phenomenon.

GH4 works fine. tested with shutter speeds 5 60 125 and 500.

I rendered out to a jpg sequence and reimported in a 30fps sequence, each jpg one in effect geting a slowmo. Next I created a sequence with the original footage with 200% stretch and as last a sequence where the footage was interpreted as 30 fps.

The 3 seqeunces on top of each other played completely in sinc. With all shutter speeds.

 

When I imported a jpg sequence for the firts time, the duration was suddenly 2 seconds longer. Turned out that the importer was still set to 25fps. I think something likewise is happening to you.

[fuzzynormal]

6 hours ago, bunk said:

I rendered out to a jpg sequence and reimported in a 30fps sequence, each jpg one in effect geting a slowmo.

I'm also doing a quick test for reference on this subject.  Will upload results.  I don't think I'm articulating myself clearly, so it's better to show than tell.

Would love to know if anyone on this thread that owns a GX80/85 would be willing to upload a 60p/60ss test clip for me?

In the meantime: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ekbyxg4l08se5lc/AACdS6CdgUQ2kxVUD1SbQ7_la?dl=0

Notice how 30p conformed with CinemaTools from the 60p/60ss from the GX7 looks "strobby," as if it's missing frames.  On the other hand, the the 60p/60ss from the EM5II is smooth.  The only way I've found to make the GX7 60p footage smooth is to bump the shutter speed up to 125. 

The fact that a shutter speed change on the GX7 camera fixes the motion issue makes me believe it's not a software conforming problem.

The raw camera files are included.  Also, marvel at my pirouette skills.  Anyway, as I say, I'm just wondering if this quirk is still there on the newer GX model.

[jase]

I would really like to help you @fuzzynormal, but i have no access to a computer due to holidays

[jase]

@fuzzynormal Gx80 + lumix app + dropbox seems to work with my iphone

however since i only can choose 50p i used a shutter speed of 50:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m4e1yfm7w19pzqu/50ss50p.mp4?dl=0

[fuzzynormal]

17 minutes ago, jase said:

@fuzzynormal Gx80 + lumix app + dropbox seems to work with my iphone

however since i only can choose 50p i used a shutter speed of 50:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m4e1yfm7w19pzqu/50ss50p.mp4?dl=0

Cool.  I'll take a look.  Thanks!

[bunk]

13 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

Notice how 30p conformed with CinemaTools from the 60p/60ss from the GX7 looks "strobby," as if it's missing frames. 

I see now and it's not surpricingly that it looks like that. The 60 fps is an 30fps file. Each frame is doubled to create a 60 fps.

Is it the .mts format or is it Panasonic pulling your leg by saying the GX7 can do 60 fps. Jase his footage is true 50fps.

If I were you I would check the 125ss footage as well. I'm pretty sure the it will turn out to be a doubled 30fps as well.

[Inazuma]

On 04/06/2016 at 5:49 PM, fuzzynormal said:

However, my 60p/60ss EM5II footage conforms/slow-mo's to 30p fine. My GX7 stuff does not.

Very curious.  

When I used to use Premiere, it would interpret my GX7 files as interlaced. I cant remember if it did it for the MP4 or the MTS files. The same thing might be happening for you and is what's causing your technical problems. I just had to tell Premiere to interpret them as progressive. Never used Cinetools so wouldn't know how you might go about that

[fuzzynormal]

8 hours ago, bunk said:

I would check the 125ss footage as well. I'm pretty sure the it will turn out to be a doubled 30fps as well.

Doubled 30p is 60p, is it not?  I don't think there's any 'leg-pulling.'  The GX7 certainly shoots 60p.  I shoot it quite often.  I uploaded the 60p .mts camera files, before the CineTools conforming process, for reference for anyone that wants to take a closer look.  

It's just that 60p with a 60ss doesn't smoothly conform for slow-mo; with 60p125ss it does.  Go figure.

I should have my GX85's this week, so I'll see for myself if the same issue arises.

[Basil]

I'm a newbie, most of my video has been underwater (my beloved LX100, in a scuba housing)

I am kind of curious about the gx80/85/g7MarkII for both photo and video (I used to own an EM1, and I appreciate stabilized video).  I know the gx80/gx85 doesn't have either the Cine D or Cine V profiles, nor a Log profile -- which is fine for me at this point, since my color correcting experience in video is pretty limited.  But can you shoot 4K video using the L Monochrome photo profile, to play with black & white video?

[bunk]

5 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

I uploaded the 60p .mts camera files, before the CineTools conforming process, for reference for anyone that wants to take a closer look.  

Cool shots of the bees.
If I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes I would not have believed it. Your 125 ss has single frames (each frames is a unique frame) and the 60ss uses double frames (every second frame is a unique frame) in effect shooting at 30 fps, hence the feeling of missing frames.
Can only think of four options.
a] You ran into a bug
b] Limitation of the camera. In that case it should be documented.
c] Some setting you missed, that prevents a 60ss when using 60fps.
d] Panasonic claims the camera can do something the camera can’t do in reality.

[fuzzynormal]

1 minute ago, bunk said:

Cool shots of the bees.
If I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes I would not have believed it. Your 125 ss has single frames (each frames is a unique frame) and the 60ss uses double frames (every second frame is a unique frame) in effect shooting at 30 fps, hence the feeling of missing frames.
Can only think of four options.
a] You ran into a bug
b] Limitation of the camera. In that case it should be documented.
c] Some setting you missed, that prevents a 60ss when using 60fps.
d] Panasonic claims the camera can do something the camera can’t do in reality.

I'd guess "c," but I sure as heck can't figure it out. I'd really assume my user error on this, which is why I'd like to see footage from other LUMIX cams @60p60ss.  I'd try on my GM1, but it's 60i only.

At any rate, I've decided to buy the new GX85, so I suppose it's all a bit of a moot point.  I'll be using the newer camera regardless.

However, you're right about the issue needing to be documented if it truly is a camera limitation.  I suppose a lot of consumer GX7 users aren't really clamoring to conform 60p60ss to 30p and maybe even wouldn't recognize the issue if they did happen to shoot 60p60ss for slow-mo, so it may have been overlooked all this time.

[Inazuma]

@fuzzynormal Ok I have to say that I thought you were just being crazy but I finally had time to sit down and check out what was going on here. You're right, every other frame is missing. It happens on my GX7 too. But you will be pleased to hear that it doesn't happen on the GX80  Though I still recommend avoiding shooting at that shutter speed

[fuzzynormal]

25 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

You're right, every other frame is missing. It happens on my GX7 too.

Weird, isn't it?  I wonder what it is then?  More a matter of curiosity than anything at this point.

[tomastancredi]

so no news about gx85/80 hdmi output? 10 bit 422?
has anyone tried?

[John Matthews]

So, I'm watching some of the prices of the limitedly available GX80 and I've come to the conclusion that I think Panasonic has made a poor business decision. I'm almost certain they could have sold it for at least 100 Euros more...and it would still sell like hotcakes.

[nac]

I picked up a GX85 with 12-32 kit lens, and sold my LX100.

The IS is fantastic on the GX85 so much better than the OIS only on the LX100.

I did some 4k video low light tests, both at similar settings at f3.5. I found that noise levels are about the same. But the LX100 can go down to F1.7 !

So i am thinking of getting a 20mm F1.7 lens for times i need to video in low light. My concern is not having dual IS. Anyone tried the 20mm and compared the IS with the kit 12-32 lens?

 

[tupp]

9 hours ago, tomastancredi said:

so no news about gx85/80 hdmi output? 10 bit 422?
has anyone tried?

At Cinegear, I asked a Panasonic salesman about the HDMI output of both the GX85 and the G7, and he insisted that both gave 8 bit, 4:2:0 video out of HDMI.

 

 

Later, I went to the Atomos booth, and asked a rep if any of their recorders could sense the bit depth and chroma sub-sample of a camera signal (to test the outputs of the G7 and GX85).  He said no, but after taking a swig from his beer, he boasted that he knew the output specs on every camera and that the G7 was definitely 8 bit, 4:2:2.  After I offered a US$5 wager that the G7 wasn't 8 bit, 4:2:2, we went to the Panasonic booth to find out the answer.

 

 

With the tipsy Atomos rep at my side, suddenly the Panasonic salesman was not so sure as before.  He admitted that the output of some cameras haven't been tested, but that the corporate office instructed the sales reps to say 8 bit, 4:2:0 for most cameras.  However, he was definitely sure that the G7 output 8 bit, 4:2:0.

 

 

So, I don't know what to tell you.  Hopefully, someone will connect the GX85 to a capable monitor/recorder/analyzer and post the answer here.