An adventure into the Panasonic GX85/80 begins - and a look at the Leica Nocticron for Micro Four Thirds

[jonpais]

10 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I guess my main point is that they seem inconsistent in their review comparing it to other cameras out there- a double standard. Apparently, Panasonic needs not only to give excellent features like zebras, 5 axis IBIS, reliability, no overheating, no max filming limits, a GH5 sensor (because it's the same), a smaller form-factor better suited for MFT, an excellent 4k image, a great touch interface, peaking, a large, sharp image for manual focus, and many more video related features that other manufacturers can't seem to offer, but also all the features of a higher priced GH5 (like the ones you mentioned above). In fact, the features you mentioned like bigger battery and a swivel screen might require a bigger body. I think its unreasonable to expect a sub-$1000 dollar camera to do everything perfectly- just because it's Panasonic. Meanwhile, other manufacturers get a free pass for not having 4k (and many of the other features I mentioned above). Concerning the handling of the camera, it's much better than one might think: notably, the fact you can easily change ALL aspects of your shot with it up next to your eye- something that the Fuji and Sony cannot do (not sure about the Olympus they talked about). The A6300 doesn't even have two dials on it and it's much more expensive. Finally, the one thing that I simply love about this camera is its minimalistic nature- why should a camera be a fashion statement? It's a tool that you WANT to disappear. Anyway, I conclude by saying I think they didn't do their homework and they got some stuff simply wrong in the review and didn't really promote some of the features that are rather unique at the price point.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I still insist that design is an important consideration, at least to me, and that goes for anything I purchase, whether it's a camera, a sofa, a computer, an audio recorder or even a lowly pair of sandals. I happened to walk into a Fuji store this afternoon, and some of their cameras just beg to be held. I'm not knocking Panasonic by any means though: my last four cameras have all been Panasonics.

[Inazuma]

14 hours ago, 7 Lakes said:

I guess Nikon's Flat profile should have more freedom to grade, is it right? And probably D5500 is better in low light with less visible noise?

Well actually with the 100mbps 4k the Panasonic is better. Much cleaner shadows. The noise is much finer on the Panasonic in both 1080p and 4k

[Greg Block]

Long time lurker here. Joined up to show you the file I get when I hook up the gx85 to my Blackmagic Video Assist.

[John Matthews]

3 hours ago, Greg Block said:

Long time lurker here. Joined up to show you the file I get when I hook up the gx85 to my Blackmagic Video Assist.

Great to see you post! Interesting codec specs... not quite sure what it all means, but I'm hesitant to say you somehow recorded 1080p 60fps 10-bit 4:2:2. I have my doubts. A number have put in questions regarding this point to Panasonic. I wrote Panasonic France and they said they would forward my question to HQ... we'll see. I bet they're being cagy for some reason... or they're just inefficient. Your Blackmagic video assist could be just recording zeros on a 8-bit signal. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

10 hours ago, jonpais said:

I agree with most of what you're saying, but I still insist that design is an important consideration, at least to me, and that goes for anything I purchase, whether it's a camera, a sofa, a computer, an audio recorder or even a lowly pair of sandals. I happened to walk into a Fuji store this afternoon, and some of their cameras just beg to be held. I'm not knocking Panasonic by any means though: my last four cameras have all been Panasonics.

I also looked at Fuji, but they're just too far behind on the video front- great color, but awful moiré and aliasing problems. Not sure which Fuji you held, but have you tried to change the ISO when the camera's at your eye? I bet it's harder than the GX80. I've never been a fan of its dedicated dials. I do admit that I would have liked to see a little larger grip on the GX80 (possibly with a GH4 battery), but then again I've just bought 2 extra batteries and the AC adapter- power won't be a concern for me, but holding it took some adjustment.

[RoFoto]

Hello all. Following Greg's lead on coming out of the darkness. I've been only lurking at this thread but have been visiting EOSHS blog for a while. Newbie to video, but glad to be able to benefit from your experience.

I see John's point. You can save a JPG onto a RAW format, so probably need specs on the signal rather than the file. 

I'd pay a reasonable price to add Cine profiles to the GX85. Thanks for including suggested profile adjustments, Inazuma and others ;-)

[John Matthews]

I'm pretty sure this is my next MFT lens:

http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-leaked-first-images-new-panasonic-12mm-f1-4-asph-lens/

Panasonic Leica branded 12mm F1.4- no IS, but you won't be needing it with the GX80. Could be priced at $600- perhaps more. I'll start saving.

[tupp]

4 hours ago, Greg Block said:

Long time lurker here. Joined up to show you the file I get when I hook up the gx85 to my Blackmagic Video Assist.

Thanks for posting the specs.  Those specs look like the properties of the video file generated by the Blackmagic Video Assist (ProRes, 1920p, 10 bit, 4:2:2) -- not the properties of the signal coming out of the camera's HDMI port.

[Greg Block]

1 hour ago, tupp said:

Thanks for posting the specs.  Those specs look like the properties of the video file generated by the Blackmagic Video Assist (ProRes, 1920p, 10 bit, 4:2:2) -- not the properties of the signal coming out of the camera's HDMI port.

Ahh okay that makes sense. Looking at the video it seems smoother to me than the internal 1080p60, but it could just be my eyes playing tricks on me.

[The Chris]

4 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I'm pretty sure this is my next MFT lens:

http://www.43rumors.com/ft5-leaked-first-images-new-panasonic-12mm-f1-4-asph-lens/

Panasonic Leica branded 12mm F1.4- no IS, but you won't be needing it with the GX80. Could be priced at $600- perhaps more. I'll start saving.

The 25/1.4 and 15/1.7 are $600, expect a 12/1.4 lens to be more expensive. I'd be surprised if it's much less than $1000. I find this lens really interesting, but the rumored Olympus 12/1.2 is also looming. 

[fuzzynormal]

3 hours ago, Greg Block said:

The video it seems smoother to me than the internal 1080p60, but it could just be my eyes playing tricks on me.

Record some sky gradients at magic hour and then see what you see on playback...

[Jordan Drake]

On 2016-06-13 at 10:55 PM, John Matthews said:

Not to descend into Jordan-bashing here, but think he might have forgotten why the channel became popular in the first place. He seems more concerned about his FS5 review, which I'm sure is really cool, but many of us will never really see. I think the best word to describe their review of the GX80/85 is "superficial" at best. I think they spent more time on scouting their location, learning about their location, running the FS5, and driving to the location than they did on learning more about the camera... possibly only reading confusing marketing literature from Panasonic. Sorry for the rant, but it seemed the only thing they had to say was: "It doesn't have a mic-input. It's got crappy sound." Meanwhile, they'll love the dual-pixel AF in the 80d- what a great cinematic tool that is! I'm not going to watch anymore review channels and I'm just going to do my best with the camera I've got now. Besides, I'm getting the impression most of the channels out there are primarily considering the clicks they can get from listing the "great" product in their "show notes below."

By the way, I specifically asked Jordan to look at the HDMI. He didn't. Doubt he ever read my question.

Log files sound great, but I think, from listening to many people on this site, they represent major challenges in post for the non-pro. Often, I look at the final product and simply can't help thinking: "why bother?" It looks almost the same. Sure, the highlights tend to blow out, just be more careful.

You mention 14-bit raw... that's cool, but if it screws up or slows anything else down, I'd rather not have it. For me, the problem of having a great camera for photography was solved about 5 years ago. With a GX80/85, you can have huge prints and have amazing latitude in post. Yes, even from 16 megapixels and "only" 12-bit files. If you print, I think most people would see little to no difference between the $3000 A7R ii and a GX80/85 on a A3-size print... possibly A2 or even A1, with viewing distance taken into consideration. For a major improvement in quality, consider medium format as everything else is simply a single-digit percentage point difference with current MFT offerings. Sure, there are aesthetic differences, but can you get shallow DOF with MFT? Of course, you can.

Wow, that's a lot to go through, but I'll do my best to cover your complaints. I  like how there aren't a bunch of 'good job' posts on this forum, posters actually take time to give constructive criticism.

Firstly, while I am a big fan of the FS5, I'm hardly fixated on every shoot I go on. It gives me reliable results (except for the 'flickergate' saga), and it's the tool I've chosen for capturing most TCSTV episodes. I realize that many viewers preferred when we shot the show on more affordable cameras, and I empathize with that. The FS5 just lets me work faster, which is key when I'm shooting and editing an episode a week on my free time. Reviewing the FS5 is at the very back of my mind when shooting episodes, I'm busy getting the shots I need for a coherent review.

I'm sorry I didn't see your request for a review of HDMI output. It was discussed, but the number of shooters using a 4K recorder on a camera at this price range seemed too small a market for us to devote a lot of time to in the review. As well, the benefits of improved colour space are most noticeable after heavy grading. The lack of a log profile or Cine profiles mean a lot of information is already baked into the files. There will be advantages to shooting 4:2:2 out, but they won't be nearly as noticeable as if the footage was shot log and properly graded.

As far as the Canon 80D, that is a flawed camera that is targeting the Vlogging audience (not pros) extremely well. The dual pixel AF is a great thing for people inexperienced at shooting video, and eliminated one of the major hurdles of large sensor capture. The stabilizer in the GX85 is also a powerful tool for people who won't use a tripod, gimbal, steadicam, etc but those users also probably won't have much interest in syncing sound.

At the end of the day, I love the image and stabilization of the GX85, but I feel like the features have been put together haphazardly. It is a very exciting preview of the GH5, which is hopefully where Panasonic will stop with any artificial handicapping and give us the 5 axis stabilizer, a great internal codec, nice preamp, and maintain the great battery life and stability.

It should be an exciting Photokina!



 

[John Matthews]

7 hours ago, The Chris said:

The 25/1.4 and 15/1.7 are $600, expect a 12/1.4 lens to be more expensive. I'd be surprised if it's much less than $1000. I find this lens really interesting, but the rumored Olympus 12/1.2 is also looming. 

Saw it on BandH for 1299... ouch! Maybe I'll go the speedbooster route for wide shots, or just get the Olympus 12mm or Panasonic Leica 15mm. Still, consider this: for $3300, you get a Panasonic Leica 12mm F1.4, a Panasonic Leica 42.5 F1.2, and a GX80... that would be about the price of a A7R ii body only. Those lenses could be some of the best that MFT has to offer.

[John Matthews]

8 minutes ago, Jordan Drake said:

Wow, that's a lot to go through, but I'll do my best to cover your complaints. I  like how there's aren't a bunch of 'good job' posts on this forum, posters actually take time to give constructive criticism.

Hi Jordan, thank you for responding. TCSTV has now got over 200,000 subs. Congratulations! That's amazing! Some people probably have full-time jobs with those kinds of numbers. I really like your show and I look forward to seeing many more episodes. You're taking criticism the right way, meaning, when constructive, people are trying to make your show better... not worse. I respect what you have to say, as I'm just an aspiring filmmaker who wants to learn the tools of the trade. With the number of your youtube subs, there undoubtably comes great responsibility to get it right. 2016 will be a make or break year for many of the companies out there... and there are a lot of people and jobs who depend on camera sales. You've got a difficult job... Good luck! ... especially with people like me who are going to double and triple check everything you say.  

Many of us have tried to contact Panasonic about the HDMI to get clear information on it. Sounds easy enough, but no response. Can you put in the question? I'd think you've got more pull.

Concerning the 80d, there was a touch of sarcasm in my post. Dual-pixel AF sounds great, but I think people are going ga-ga over this tech, not taking into consideration more important issues and features. Personally, I'd rather have a detailed 4k image and IBIS. That's just me though.

And just a note, I had a look at the dpreview review (that sounds weird) of the GX85 and I also didn't agree with some of the things they said there... and I found a few mistakes.

[fuzzynormal]

38 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

Saw it on BandH for 1299... ouch! Maybe I'll go the speedbooster route for wide shots, or just get the Olympus 12mm or Panasonic Leica 15mm. Still, consider this: for $3300, you get a Panasonic Leica 12mm F1.4, a Panasonic Leica 42.5 F1.2, and a GX80... that would be about the price of a A7R ii body only. Those lenses could be some of the best that MFT has to offer.

I saw in the marketing that it's:

"4K enabled for video capture"

Thank god for that!  

It sure is funny how light behaves when it knows it's being captured at 4K resolutions... More impressive is how Pany has enabled it's lens to deal with those curious photons that apparently can change their behavior. 

Thats some quantum physics science-y level sheit right there. 

Good thing the Japanese and Germans are on it.

On June 14, 2016 at 10:25 PM, jonpais said:

I still insist that design is an important consideration.

Good design and good ergonomics should be part of the same coin. 

Minimalism is okay when it's functional... It's very very difficult to design something to be simple but also practical. 

I own the gx85 and a Em5II. I'd RATHER shoot with the Oly; not that the Panasonic can't do the job, it just doesn't do it, for me, as easily and comfortably as the EM5II does it.

That said, I now shoot more with the GX85 because it's technically superior. 

However... Does one actually get better shots with a camera they love using, even if it's inferior??

Theres harmony to all this stuff. Sometimes when you hear that harmony, everything grooves together and it can be a lot of fun. And I know I'm more creative when I'm having fun. 

[Henry Ciullo]

used the gx80 with 12-32 for first time on actual shoot and wanted to share a few thoughts:

- ibis works well to keep camera shake and jitter at bay in run n gun situations like the ones I am used to. If you can manage to walk smoothly you can even pull off some "sort of" gimbal shots.

- resolution, dynamic range and color has greatly improved from gh1 and gh2 (my previous panny cameras)

- the 12-32 lens is a good all rounder for my type of situations, with ETC you get the extra reach when needed. I do really miss a manual focus gear.

- single AF defining the area with touch screen and focusing with half shutter is my preferred way of using this lens. I do wish peaking was enabled also for AF just to be sure. I did miss a couple of out of focus shots looking at the lcd, which confirms my personal hate towards filming with lcd, I much prefer looking into an evf.

- i missed several recordings, because sometimes you need to press twice the rec button, it seems that after 1 min of inactivity the camera goes into a half standby, removing info from screen. 

- hdmi ouput is clean and does not impact lcd or evf output as many panny cameras do

- battery life is rubbish. I had only 1 battery with me and only lasted around 30mins continuos use. Not being able to recharge in camera with the camera on really sucks. With the Blackmagic pocket I could use an external power pack to recharge internal batt and power the cam at the same time and could go on the whole day.

- using standard profile with -5 and shadow +2 I am happy with shadow level and highlight rolloff. I still am not convinced about skin tones, I guess the Blackmagic has spoilt me in this area.

- i cannot make timelapse function work. I just don't get it. I also tried reading the manual but all I can do is set starting time, interval and image count ( I presume you need to put 0 to have infinite takes). But then how do you actually start the function? with shutter it only takes 1 pic....

Here is a pic of my handheld rig I have been using since the GH1 ages, it gives me the flexibilty I need to move quickly and adds some mass to smooth out movement. There is an old 8mm camera pistol grip, a chest pad made out of a metal L bracket with foam and vinyl, Fotga rod with baseplate and manfrotto ballhead with quick release.

Here is a quick selection of clips from the weekend.

 

[John Matthews]

22 minutes ago, Henry Ciullo said:

battery life is rubbish. I had only 1 battery with me and only lasted around 30mins continuos use. Not being able to recharge in camera with the camera on really sucks. With the Blackmagic pocket I could use an external power pack to recharge internal batt and power the cam at the same time and could go on the whole day.

I'm quite surprised about 30 minutes. I've heard reports of 1 hour and 30 minutes. That's really low. I bought 2 extra batteries for 30 Euros with a charger. I think I'm covered, you might consider the same. This problem would have been solved had Panasonic been able to change their voltage requirements- I wanted to hook up a USB battery pack like my RX100!

[jonpais]

[Inazuma]

@Henry Ciullo

You can actually give the camera continuous power. Noticed the flap on the battery door? It allows you to stick a dummy battery in that has a cable connection for power. 

[Henry Ciullo]

22 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

@Henry Ciullo

You can actually give the camera continuous power. Noticed the flap on the battery door? It allows you to stick a dummy battery in that has a cable connection for power. 

yes, I guess I will get the dummy batt as well as 2 extra batteries that I already have on order.

[Greg Block]

Did a sky shot yesterday evening as was recommended by fuzzy

Internal Vector (Contrast pushed up)

 

External Vector (Contrast pushed up)

 

Internal Screenshot

 

External Screenshot