An adventure into the Panasonic GX85/80 begins - and a look at the Leica Nocticron for Micro Four Thirds

[John Matthews]

6 hours ago, mercer said:

I don't mean to be a contrarian here, but I think you are setting the in body 5-Axis to "on" for photos only and you aren't getting the full 5-Axis in movie mode. If you look at the chart and asterisk, the language is pretty plain... E-stabilization needs to be activated for non-ois lenses in movie mode. But I could be wrong. I don't have my cam near me right now.

I'm sure I'm getting a stabalized image... I would recognize my coffee shakies anywhere. Panasonic screwed the pooch on their charts- they just wanted everyone to remember that dual-IS was only possible with a Panasonic stabalized lens... which is true. "Body" does indeed mean 5-axis IBIS, regardless of the lens slapped on it. Put a Panasonic stabalized lens and you get dual-IS (5 IBIS + 2). Electronic crops- never really shot much with it because of that. "Hybrid" means a combination of 5-axis IBIS and electronic IS. "When [E-stabalization] is set to ON" is written on their chart to show that "Hybrid" (5-axis IBIS + electronic IS) is ONLY available in video mode, not photo mode. That comma just after "Body" in the bottom right-hand box is essential in understanding the chart. 5-axis "Body" stabalization is available in ALL 6 boxes on the chart.

Try this:

1) put on a 50mm lens

2) turn off the stabalizer (no E-stabalization)

3) punch in focus and pull focus (note the shakies)

4) now, turn on the stabalizer (no E-stabalization), your shakies are now gone when you punch in.

[sanveer]

15 hours ago, ninetto said:

seems to be a bit of confusion here, or unclear wording of the manual.

A quick look at page 146 seems to imply that "5-axis-hybrid" stabilization is  available for non-OIS lenses only when "E-Stabilization" is set to [ON]. (See *)

Up until now I hadn't played with this setting. It was "on" for my Canon-FD lenses and I was pleased with the stabilization... but with it off the stabilization seems to work quite well too. Hmmmmmmmm... what is Panasonic trying to tell us? I understand that the "hybrid 5-axis " (+ E-stabilization)  adds digital cropping to OIS-Lenses, but what is the deal with non-OIS lenses?

The manual is a mess. Panasonic probably gave it to some Japanese kid to translate it for $10, ans he used Google Translate. 

 

10 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I don't think so. The better stabalization comes from dual-IS, a combo of 5-axis IBIS and 2 axis in-lens sabalization. The runner-up is just 5-axis IBIS and no in-lens stabalization. IMO the electronic type doesn't figure in all of this; hence a distant third due to the crop.

There is a video on Vimeo with the eStabilization (with and without), and there is a slight improvement in the already excellent stabilisation. Though it crops in further into the frame, and thus is a curious tradeoff. 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

I'm sure I'm getting a stabalized image... I would recognize my coffee shakies anywhere. Panasonic screwed the pooch on their charts- they just wanted everyone to remember that dual-IS was only possible with a Panasonic stabalized lens... which is true. "Body" does indeed mean 5-axis IBIS, regardless of the lens slapped on it. Put a Panasonic stabalized lens and you get dual-IS (5 IBIS + 2). Electronic crops- never really shot much with it because of that. "Hybrid" means a combination of 5-axis IBIS and electronic IS. "When [E-stabalization] is set to ON" is written on their chart to show that "Hybrid" (5-axis IBIS + electronic IS) is ONLY available in video mode, not photo mode. That comma just after "Body" in the bottom right-hand box is essential in understanding the chart. 5-axis "Body" stabalization is available in ALL 6 boxes on the chart.

Try this:

1) put on a 50mm lens

2) turn off the stabalizer (no E-stabalization)

3) punch in focus and pull focus (note the shakies)

4) now, turn on the stabalizer (no E-stabalization), your shakies are now gone when you punch in.

When you have just the body stabilization on, do you have the symbol, on your display, of the square with the hand in the center, and 4 arrows? Because I only get that symbol when I use body stabilization + e-stabilizer. 

[gethin]

I got some eye watering moire today on a wicker basket in my bedroom.  Not so bad in 4k, but exactly the scenario I'm likely to encounter when shooting 1080. Which makes this not the camera for me   Love the 4K image on faces and landscapes, but I got it for real estate vids.  I'll keep the lenses though, and probably sell the body on ebay, and see if the rumored G80 has less moire (and 5 axis!). Its surprising as the sony rx100 has such a great image in 1080, 4k and 250fps - and better control of noise to my eyes.  Wonder how sony can do it in such a small camera?

[John Matthews]

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

When you have just the body stabilization on, do you have the symbol, on your display, of the square with the hand in the center, and 4 arrows? Because I only get that symbol when I use body stabilization + e-stabilizer. 

No, I don't because I don't want the hybrid (and extra crop). I only get 5-axis IBIS with my manual focus lens.

[mercer]

Personally, I think Panasonic isn't being forthcoming about exactly how you get the 5-Axis. To me it seems like Duall IS is 5-Axis - 2 from the lens and 3 from the body + e-stabilizer for that extra goodness. But for non ois lenses you need the e-stabilizer to get the full 5-axis, otherwise you are only getting 3 from the body. I think the confusion lies within how they explain dual is. 

[John Matthews]

22 minutes ago, gethin said:

I got some eye watering moire today on a wicker basket in my bedroom.  Not so bad in 4k, but exactly the scenario I'm likely to encounter when shooting 1080. Which makes this not the camera for me   Love the 4K image on faces and landscapes, but I got it for real estate vids.  I'll keep the lenses though, and probably sell the body on ebay, and see if the rumored G80 has less moire (and 5 axis!). Its surprising as the sony rx100 has such a great image in 1080, 4k and 250fps - and better control of noise to my eyes.  Wonder how sony can do it in such a small camera?

I've shot over 5 hours in varied environments and subjects... have yet to see moiré in 4k. I suggest you shoot 4k and downsample to 1080- processor intensive, but worth it. You should also note that moiré should appear on some subjects like a wicker basket- it's natural for our eyes to see too.

18 minutes ago, mercer said:

Personally, I think Panasonic isn't being forthcoming about exactly how you get the 5-Axis. To me it seems like Duall IS is 5-Axis - 2 from the lens and 3 from the body + e-stabilizer for that extra goodness. But for non ois lenses you need the e-stabilizer to get the full 5-axis, otherwise you are only getting 3 from the body. I think the confusion lies within how they explain dual is. 

Nope. Go back further in this thread and you'll see. Panasonic has made it crazy confusing for us, but 4k 5-axis IBIS with ALL lenses is its minimum capability.

[mercer]

12 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

Nope. Go back further in this thread and you'll see. Panasonic has made it crazy confusing for us, but 4k 5-axis IBIS with ALL lenses is its minimum capability.

Go back to the chart, under non-ois lenses for photo mode, they show two graphics, the second one shows an up and down arrow symbol that is for 5-Axis ibis, but it is for photo only. To get 5-Axis ibis in video you need the hybrid version which requires e-stabilization + the 3-Axis in body which is the symbol of the hand within the (( )). Again maybe I am wrong but I don't think so. Either way it doesn't matter, if you are happy with (( )) stabilization then that's all that is important. I noticed a lot of jitters without the e-stabilization. 

[John Matthews]

14 minutes ago, mercer said:

Go back to the chart, under non-ois lenses for photo mode, they show two graphics, the second one shows an up and down arrow symbol that is for 5-Axis ibis, but it is for photo only. To get 5-Axis ibis in video you need the hybrid version which requires e-stabilization + the 3-Axis in body which is the symbol of the hand within the (( )). Again maybe I am wrong but I don't think so. Either way it doesn't matter, if you are happy with (( )) stabilization then that's all that is important. I noticed a lot of jitters without the e-stabilization. 

I am quite happy with the IBIS... I reckon it's one of the best on the market. I've read the chart I don't know how many times... it's clear in saying IBIS in all modes is available. Do a search for "3-axis" in the manual. This camera moves that sensor along 5 different axis as the graphic above exemplifies. E-stabalization only works in video mode, taking a further crop and doing more movement of the image in software, just like many camcorders out there would. I think it would be better to stabalize in post rather than use E-stabalization.

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

I am quite happy with the IBIS... I reckon it's one of the best on the market. I've read the chart I don't know how many times... it's clear in saying IBIS in all modes is available. Do a search for "3-axis" in the manual. This camera moves that sensor along 5 different axis as the graphic above exemplifies. E-stabalization only works in video mode, taking a further crop and doing more movement of the image in software, just like many camcorders out there would.

Honestly, I don't want to argue about this. I was wrong about what the symbols mean. After looking at the next page of the manual it is clear that the hand in the center of (( )) symbol is the symbol for normal body stabilizer which is indeed 3-Axis, up/down = 1 Axis, left/right = 2 Axis and roll = 3-axis. With e-stabilization you get pitch and yaw which completes your 5-axis.

[John Matthews]

2 minutes ago, mercer said:

Honestly, I don't want to argue about this. I was wrong about what the symbols mean. After looking at the next page of the manual it is clear that the hand in the center of (( )) symbol is the symbol for normal body stabilizer which is indeed 3-Axis, up/down = 1 Axis, left/right = 2 Axis and roll = 3-axis. With e-stabilization you get pitch and yaw which completes your 5-axis.

I didn't mean to sound upset... sorry if I did. However, I can't image how any sort of "electronic" stabalization could ever correct for pitch and yaw... up/down (yes), left/right(yes), roll (maybe, but hard), pitch(?), yaw(?).

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

I didn't mean to sound upset... sorry if I did. However, I can't image how any sort of "electronic" stabalization could ever correct for pitch and yaw... up/down (yes), left/right(yes), roll (maybe, but hard), pitch(?), yaw(?).

No you're fine, I was more worried about my tone. Take a look at this graphic, it shows Sony's system but I think it's relevant to this discussion...

In their system the lens' ois provides the pitch and yaw, as it does with Panasonic Dual-IS. But if you take the lens out of the equation, you lose pitch and yaw, the e-stabilizer gives you back pitch and yaw. 

Again I may be wrong here, because I have read conflicting statements all over the place about this, but the manual, when you add up the confusion, I think I might be right. The question is, if I am, does the e-stabilizer degrade the IQ by leaving artifacts, or is the crop the only disadvantage?

[John Matthews]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

No you're fine, I was more worried about my tone. Take a look at this graphic, it shows Sony's system but I think it's relevant to this discussion...

In their system the lens' ois provides the pitch and yaw, as it does with Panasonic Dual-IS. But if you take the lens out of the equation, you lose pitch and yaw, the e-stabilizer gives you back pitch and yaw. 

Again I may be wrong here, because I have read conflicting statements all over the place about this, but the manual, when you add up the confusion, I think I might be right. The question is, if I am, does the e-stabilizer degrade the IQ by leaving artifacts, or is the crop the only disadvantage?

 

Not sure how the A7II works, but the Panasonic is marketing the GX80 as 5-axis IBIS with the possibility of 2 more in the lens. The A7II "looks" like 3-axis IBIS plus 2-axis in-lens and is noted by reviewers as being not as good as the Panasonic or Olympus options. The GX8's IBIS is said to be 4-axis and isn't as good as the GX80. I'm still confident that it's 5-axis IBIS, regardless of E-stabalization ON or OFF.

I would approach the question "Does E-stabalization degrade the image?" the same way as I approach grading. Personally, I would rather have a choice later on... I doubt that Panasonic is doing better stabalization in software than the editors out there. Add to that the idea of a extra crop and I think the upside is only marginal... could be wrong though...

 

 

 

[mercer]

30 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

 

Not sure how the A7II works, but the Panasonic is marketing the GX80 as 5-axis IBIS with the possibility of 2 more in the lens. The A7II "looks" like 3-axis IBIS plus 2-axis in-lens and is noted by reviewers as being not as good as the Panasonic or Olympus options. The GX8's IBIS is said to be 4-axis and isn't as good as the GX80. I'm still confident that it's 5-axis IBIS, regardless of E-stabalization ON or OFF.

I would approach the question "Does E-stabalization degrade the image?" the same way as I approach grading. Personally, I would rather have a choice later on... I doubt that Panasonic is doing better stabalization in software than the editors out there. Add to that the idea of a extra crop and I think the upside is only marginal... could be wrong though...

 

 

 

Yeah, I don't know. I think there is some form of 5-axis in the body for dual is in photo mode or with an ois lens, but I have my suspicions that it doesn't translate the same way in movie mode and Panasonic is using creative and confusing language to sell 5-axis ibis in 4K if..., ..., ...

I will say this though, unfortunately, Hybrid 5-axis works way better than just Normal ibis. It's like night and day, so if Normal IS is 5-axis ibis in video mode (I have my doubts) then their implementation of 5-axis ibis is not very good at all.

[John Matthews]

17 minutes ago, mercer said:

I will say this though, unfortunately, Hybrid 5-axis works way better than just Normal ibis. It's like night and day, so if Normal IS is 5-axis ibis in video mode (I have my doubts) then their implementation of 5-axis ibis is not very good at all.

I'll give Hybrid 5-axis a go and report back. IMO the GX80's IBIS is pretty good, taking out almost all the micro-jitters, which is what you really want anyway. Does it replace a tripod? No, but I'm sure if you turn off IBIS altogether, you'll notice a huge difference.

[Roger]

Here´s a good test of the different modes of stabilization of the GX80, compared with Olympus Pen F for video.

 

 

[sanveer]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

Yeah, I don't know. I think there is some form of 5-axis in the body for dual is in photo mode or with an ois lens, but I have my suspicions that it doesn't translate the same way in movie mode and Panasonic is using creative and confusing language to sell 5-axis ibis in 4K if..., ..., ...

I will say this though, unfortunately, Hybrid 5-axis works way better than just Normal ibis. It's like night and day, so if Normal IS is 5-axis ibis in video mode (I have my doubts) then their implementation of 5-axis ibis is not very good at all.

I think it may not be as much an issue with the IBIS as it is with Focus. The focus hunting interferes (IMHO) with the smoothness of the IBIS. Maybe with kess focus hunting, things may be more impressive. 

[mercer]

12 minutes ago, sanveer said:

I think it may not be as much an issue with the IBIS as it is with Focus. The focus hunting interferes (IMHO) with the smoothness of the IBIS. Maybe with kess focus hunting, things may be more impressive. 

I've only tried "Normal" IBIS with the Nikkor 28mm and I couldn't keep the thing still. With e-stabilization in 5-Axis Hybrid mode, it floats. 

[fuzzynormal]

Might be irrelevant, but:

1) You have to make sure your stabilizer is set for the proper focal length. 

and 

2) The stabilizer is actually working. I have 2 gx85's. On one of them the stabilizer has actually got "stuck" a few times. 

The description of your ibis performance does make it sound like it's not performing adequately; through user error or malfunction.

I'd also advise that your moire could well be a computer display issue rather than the actual footage. I just did a shoot with a lady in tight stripes. Morie looked pretty bad in the edit window, but when I watched the footage full-rez, it was fine.  

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I've only tried "Normal" IBIS with the Nikkor 28mm and I couldn't keep the thing still. With e-stabilization in 5-Axis Hybrid mode, it floats. 

Have you tried comparing no IS and IBIS, never actually turning on the E-stabalization? If you see no difference, your device might be faulty.