Jimmy Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 30 minutes ago, Kino said: The difference between neutral and C-Log on the 1DC is 3-4 stops. If, as this test shows, neutral is the same on both cameras, the 1DX II is shooting with a 3-4 stop penalty vs. the 1DC. I will leave it to other forum members to decide if this is significant or not based on their intended use. I think if you are shooting under artificial lighting (e.g., nighttime, studio filming) or overcast conditions, it's not as much of a problem since you don't need more than 9 stops of DR for these conditions. Another way to think about it is if 3 stops of DR, Super 35mm mode, and improved color grading are worth the extra $2,000 while sacrificing DPAF and beautiful 4K60p. Is that negated a bit by the 1D-X having more DR at sensor level, i wonder? It is clearly not getting close to the 1DC in these tests though.... Clog could easily push it well above the 1DC though, that is the sad part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pozols Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Found some footage of Jordan Spieth taken with the Canon 1DX Mark ii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
independent Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I'd love to see more tests, but I don't see a 3-4 stop difference. regardless it's reasonably clear what the trade-offs are between these two cameras. If we're talking pure image quality, not features, but solely resolution (4K), dynamic range, color science, I think the better comparison would be the the 1dc and blackmagic ursa mini 4.6k, within the same price range. The 1dx mark ii is just a different beast. It's possibly the most versatile image capturing camera in the world right now. Not necessarily the most cinematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, independent said: The 1dx mark ii is just a different beast. It's possibly the most versatile image capturing camera in the world right now. Not necessarily the most cinematic. It could easily be both though, with a few lines of code. We need to keep hammering Canon about this (i've sent about 20 emails now!) As it is also their flagship model, I don't see why it would effect their bottom line either.... It's not like people are suddenly gonna stop buying pro video equipment like the C300 mk II, just because the 1DXII has c-log Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
independent Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Don't kill me for saying this, but when I was looking into this camera a few weeks ago, I talked to two different editors who I've worked with (one works for a top advertising agency, another for a big tv show here in NYC) about these canon cameras, and c-log came up. One said, "it's overrated" - the other said, "don't shoot any of those canons in c-log." I could have sworn he mentioned some specific picture profiles but I don't remember. They both do CC-ing, the latter does extensive grading. I just took their word for it because they're good at what they do. Later, I looked online and there seemed to be complaints about banding, compression artifacts, etc. about c-log, whether it's due to the 8-bit codec or something else. Again, I don't have firsthand experience, and I'll try to get some more information from people who work with the footage for a living. I'm not saying who's right or wrong, but I just think there's a potential issue here (drawbacks of c-log) that might affect this 1DX II v. 1DC decision for some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Mason Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 41 minutes ago, independent said: Don't kill me for saying this, but when I was looking into this camera a few weeks ago, I talked to two different editors who I've worked with (one works for a top advertising agency, another for a big tv show here in NYC) about these canon cameras, and c-log came up. One said, "it's overrated" - the other said, "don't shoot any of those canons in c-log." I could have sworn he mentioned some specific picture profiles but I don't remember. They both do CC-ing, the latter does extensive grading. I just took their word for it because they're good at what they do. Later, I looked online and there seemed to be complaints about banding, compression artifacts, etc. about c-log, whether it's due to the 8-bit codec or something else. Again, I don't have firsthand experience, and I'll try to get some more information from people who work with the footage for a living. I'm not saying who's right or wrong, but I just think there's a potential issue here (drawbacks of c-log) that might affect this 1DX II v. 1DC decision for some people. Shooting C-log and colour grading C-log has a steep learning curve. Most of the issues can be avoided if handled properly. "Knock Knock" starring Keenu Reeves was shot on 1DC with C-log and it looked fantastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kino Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 1 hour ago, Jimmy said: It could easily be both though, with a few lines of code. We need to keep hammering Canon about this (i've sent about 20 emails now!) As it is also their flagship model, I don't see why it would effect their bottom line either.... It's not like people are suddenly gonna stop buying pro video equipment like the C300 mk II, just because the 1DXII has c-log Canon cannot possibly put C-Log into the 1DX II. There are many reasons for this, most of which have to do with segmentation and price point. The 1DX II is priced at $6,000 USD so as to compete effectively with the Nikon D5 at $6,500. That very fact means that it cannot have C-Log, as it would annihilate the C100 II as well as the 1DC and disrupt any plans for a 1DC II or even a C200/C100 III with 4K. Having intentionally withheld C-Log and Super 35mm mode from the 1DX II, the most logical thing for Canon is to release the 1DC II, which I would expect in the next year or two. That is far more likely than Canon adding a C-Log firmware upgrade for the 1DX II. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 There are not many people I know that shoot with a c100 or c300 that would trade in for DSLR format factor even if they gave 20 stops of DR in compressed raw format. NDs, XLRs etc and a good image are what sells it Also worth noting the $1500 XC10 has c-log.... so it is not strictly a price separator Rinad Amir and BenEricson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kino Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 23 minutes ago, Jimmy said: There are not many people I know that shoot with a c100 or c300 that would trade in for DSLR format factor even if they gave 20 stops of DR in compressed raw format. NDs, XLRs etc and a good image are what sells it The point is that Canon segments the photo and cinema/video divisions through clear price points. The 1DX II is priced relative to competing DSLRs (Nikon D5) and other Canon DSLRs (7D, 5D, etc.). The 1DX II is not priced relative to the Cinema EOS line, where features such as 4K internal, C-Log, Super 35mm mode, and unlimited record time have a particular price attached to them. While getting 4K internal, 4K60p, and DPAF is a great coup for a Canon DSLR such as the 1DX II, for Canon to add those missing features such as C-Log through a free/paid firmware upgrade and turn the 1DX II into a "new 1DC" is impossible at this point in the game, especially when they have future plans for the 1DC line. If you don't like the 1DX II as it is and don't want a 1DC either, just wait for the 1DC II. It will be the perfect marriage of the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 There is zero official word on a 1dc ii.... no point using guesswork as fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kino Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Guesswork or not, one could have said the same thing about every Canon camera that currently has a mark II or III next to it. Standard procedure for Canon would entail a 1DC II to follow the 1DC and based on the 1DX II platform. It's not like we are picking camera models out of the sky. By withholding those key cinema features (C-Log, Super 35mm mode, unlimited record time [which raises the EU taxes]) from the 1DX II, they are even telling you that a more expensive and capable 1D video DSLR is on the way. It's pretty much telegraphed at this point. Of course, they cannot yet announce the 1DC II officially as this would hurt the 1DX II sales as well as the remaining 1DC retail stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Or they could discontinue it and restrict the C range to video centric products .... neither you or I know.... so let's stick to facts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 27 minutes ago, Jimmy said: Or they could discontinue it and restrict the C range to video centric products .... neither you or I know.... so let's stick to facts Canon did state that the 1DX Mkii is meant as a replacement for the 1DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Mason Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, DBounce said: Canon did state that the 1DX Mkii is meant as a replacement for the 1DC. No, it's misinformation from low level Canon staff, 1DC is still in production and remains in the Cinema EOS lineup, you can call +1 800-CINE-EOS to verify this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kino Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 29 minutes ago, DBounce said: Canon did state that the 1DX Mkii is meant as a replacement for the 1DC. That was Roger Machin of Canon, South Africa, and it was an off-the-cuff remark. I would not take that too seriously as a much higher spokesman from Canon has confirmed that these are two separate "lines." The most telling aspect of this is that the 1DC retails for $2,000 USD more than the 1DX II and will continue in production, at least until it is replaced by the 1DC II. The number to call is actually 1 855-CINE-EOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kino Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 59 minutes ago, Jimmy said: Or they could discontinue it and restrict the C range to video centric products .... neither you or I know.... so let's stick to facts Yes, let's stick to facts as opposed to fanciful ideas on Canon firmware upgrades for adding C-Log to the 1DX II that have no chance or history of occurring and that belong to a different product line and division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 37 minutes ago, Luke Mason said: No, it's misinformation from low level Canon staff, 1DC is still in production and remains in the Cinema EOS lineup, you can call +1 800-CINE-EOS to verify this. Well well welll, I called the 855 number and I have to ask.... Did you? Because the person on the other end said he had not heard that the 1DC was out of production, but also stated to his knowledge the 1DX was still in production. When I asked him if their were plans for a 1DC Mkii has said he believed the 1DX MkII was a replacement for both cameras. So all those waiting for a 1DC Mkii are going to be in for a disappointment. 19 minutes ago, Kino said: That was Roger Machin of Canon, South Africa, and it was an off-the-cuff remark. I would not take that too seriously as a much higher spokesman from Canon has confirmed that these are two separate "lines." The most telling aspect of this is that the 1DC retails for $2,000 USD more than the 1DX II and will continue in production, at least until it is replaced by the 1DC II. The number to call is actually 1 855-CINE-EOS. Being seperate lines in no way implies their will be a Mkii. As I understand it the 1DC did not sell well. Case in point, did you buy one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Mason Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 5 minutes ago, DBounce said: Well well welll, I called the 855 number and I have to ask.... Did you? Because the person on the other end said he had not heard that the 1DC was out of production, but also stated to his knowledge the 1DX was still in production. When I asked him if their were plans for a 1DC Mkii has said he believed the 1DX MkII was a replacement for both cameras. So all those waiting for a 1DC Mkii are going to be in for a disappointment. Being seperate lines in no way implies their will be a Mkii. As I understand it the 1DC did not sell well. Case in point, did you buy one? Back at NAB I asked the Canon rep (a regional manager or something), he told me 1DX II was not a replacement for 1DC, later I called and confirmed this also. I don't think a 1DC II is likely though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kino Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 The 1DC did not sell well because it was way overpriced on release. If anything, the 1DX II demonstrates that Canon can deliver roughly the same tech (or even better) for half the price. Then again, there are key features missing from the camera. These two facts, reduced production/retail costs and withheld cinema features on the 1DX II, combine to make a 1DC II even more of a possibility. If Canon could sell the camera for the current 1DC price of $8,000, it would do much better than last time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 8 hours ago, Kino said: Yes, let's stick to facts as opposed to fanciful ideas on Canon firmware upgrades for adding C-Log to the 1DX II that have no chance or history of occurring and that belong to a different product line and division. The ever so slightly difference is I was clearly speaking hypothetically... yet you were using rumour and hearsay as fact. I'm actually hoping for a 1DC ii with clog and 10bit.... but I won't hold my breath.... maybe nab 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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