1DC vs 1DX II Shootout

[Kino]

7 hours ago, Jimmy said:

The ever so slightly difference is I was clearly speaking hypothetically... yet you were using rumour and hearsay as fact.

I'm actually hoping for a 1DC ii with clog and 10bit.... but I won't hold my breath.... maybe nab 2017

I expect Canon to keep the 1DC model around and to release updates just like any other camera model that they currently have in production. Of course, Canon may want to discontinue the 1DC entirely and bring out a C200/C100 III with internal 4K so as to compete more effectively with the Sony FS7 in that $8,000 price range. That is certainly possible.

The 1DC II is pure speculation at this point, but seems likely to me based on the several important factors: 

1) intentionally withheld cinema features on the 1DX II

2) lower production/retail cost on the 1DX II ($6,000) vs. the original 1DC ($12,000)

3) product cycle extension: as the 1DX II sales dry up Canon will look to maximize yields on the 1DX II platform

4) incremental feature advancement: 1DX > 1DC > 1DX II > 1DC II

As for 10 bit internal, that may require a fan, which is not really possible on these weather-sealed bodies. They would also have to add another codec or redesign MJPEG using the new JPEG 9 standard, which allows for up to 12 bit processing. That may be too much to ask from Canon. If we do see a 1DC II, it will likely be identical to the 1DX II to keep the costs down, but it will add those missing cinema features.

[DBounce]

24 minutes ago, Kino said:

I expect Canon to keep the 1DC model around and to release updates just like any other camera model that they currently have in production. Of course, Canon may want to discontinue the 1DC entirely and bring out a C200/C100 III with internal 4K so as to compete more effectively with the Sony FS7 in that $8,000 price range. That is certainly possible.

The 1DC II is pure speculation at this point, but seems likely to me based on the several important factors: 

1) intentionally withheld cinema features on the 1DX II

2) lower production/retail cost on the 1DX II ($6,000) vs. the original 1DC ($12,000)

3) product cycle extension: as the 1DX II sales dry up Canon will look to maximize yields on the 1DX II platform

4) incremental feature advancement: 1DX > 1DC > 1DX II > 1DC II

As for 10 bit internal, that may require a fan, which is not really possible on these weather-sealed bodies. They would also have to add another codec or redesign MJPEG using the new JPEG 9 standard, which allows for up to 12 bit processing. That may be too much to ask from Canon. If we do see a 1DC II, it will likely be identical to the 1DX II to keep the costs down, but it will add those missing cinema features.

So you predict double the price for the added C-Log and a "C" emblem... I'll pass. Technicolor gets pretty close as is. Just not feeling double the money for essentially the same camera... which was the case for the current 1DC vs the 1DX Mk1. In any case, all the Canon reps I have asked and heard have stated the 1DC Mkii is not gonna happen. At the end of the day the best camera to shoot with is the one you have/can get. Waiting for a fantasy will not get the shot done. 

[Jimmy]

Which cinema features? The 1DC has no video centric features.

Surely even Canon aren't crazy enough to think people will pay $1000s extra for a c-log enabled 1DX-ii?

The 1DC had a hefty price tag, but it was completely unique. Having 4K and clog then just about justified the pricing... But surely not now

[Kino]

2 hours ago, DBounce said:

So you predict double the price for the added C-Log and a "C" emblem... I'll pass. Technicolor gets pretty close as is. Just not feeling double the money for essentially the same camera... which was the case for the current 1DC vs the 1DX Mk1. In any case, all the Canon reps I have asked and heard have stated the 1DC Mkii is not gonna happen. At the end of the day the best camera to shoot with is the one you have/can get. Waiting for a fantasy will not get the shot done. 

The lower production cost on the 1DX II enables a much cheaper 1DC II priced closer to the 1DX II. That is the "game changer" for the 1DC line. They are sister cameras after all and everything the 1DC II would need from a hardware perspective is already in the 1DX II body, with its amazing heat management, processing power, and recording data rate.

You do realize that your 1DX II is capable of recording at the same data rate (100 MB/s) as the RED Raven and Scarlet-W cameras. That is simply incredible for a DSLR. I cannot imagine Canon would give up the chance for a 1DC II with everything that can be done with the technical masterpiece that is the 1DX II platform.

The only major differences between the cameras will be C-Log, Super 35mm mode, and Cinema EOS support. They could possibly add a higher bit depth but I doubt it for the reasons I stated above. The unlimited recording time also might not be possible because of the EU taxes and the need to keep the price as low as possible.

As for my current camera, the BMPC-4K, I don't like it at all. The rig that is required to provide power is cumbersome and doesn't play nicely with my equipment, including the slider, the stabilizer, and everything else. The rear screen is also useless here in the California sun so you need to add monitoring as well. Moreover, the RAW CinemaDNG files are far too massive at 12 GB/minute and very difficult to grade and edit with on most computers. The 1DC would solve all my problems in terms of portability, ease of use for production and post-production, and weather sealing for dusty or wet environments.

[Kino]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Which cinema features? The 1DC has no video centric features.

Surely even Canon aren't crazy enough to think people will pay $1000s extra for a c-log enabled 1DX-ii?

The 1DC had a hefty price tag, but it was completely unique. Having 4K and clog then just about justified the pricing... But surely not now

 

Surely, Sony isn't "crazy enough" to sell old sensor technology (A7SII) at almost the same price as newer and much better sensor technology (A7RII)? But, yes, they are just that "crazy" because they have mastered the art of incremental product advancement. The A7RII has internal 4K, BSI, and IBIS, all of which was missing on the A7S. This newer model, the A7SII, has S-Log3, which the A7RII is lacking, thus providing a slight advantage to the newer camera in one particular area even though the A7RII offers a much higher resolution and is far more advanced in terms of sensor tech (sound familiar?). 

Canon has the exact same strategy here with the 1DC and 1DX lines, except that, unlike Sony, Canon charges a premium for everything (e.g., $16K for the C300 II vs. $10K for a Sony FS7/XDCA combo with the same features). They will alternate which camera gets the latest technological advancement so as to get you to buy the next one, while holding out some features to make the last one still relevant.

So, yes, the Japanese electronic conglomerates are crazy cats who do whatever they can to get you to buy as many models of a product that are available because each one is lacking what the other provides or what the next version will provide.

[independent]

Oh the crazy Japanese. Oh wait, Apple does it too. Oh wait, so does any consumer electronics company. It's called economics in the 21st century, with mass production, globalization, etc. 

Ah, the days when you had two sets of clothes, one pair of shoes, and it cost you 6 months salary to buy that "television?"

You're demanding a perfect camera so you won't have to buy another camera again for the rest of your life. If you want that bargain, then you'd have to make it profitable enough for that company. Buy that Alexa.

No? Then you have to deal with compromises and shop at h&m like the rest of the masses and follow the seasonal trends.

Look, even apple is struggling because the 5s is good enough for too many people. Ironically, their phones became too good, satisfying consumers as well as pushing their competitors. So Apple now has pressure because consumers are spending less money than expected. That's the power you as a consumer wield.

These are consumer electronics companies, and you are the consumer market. There's really only one way to clearly communicate to the company. Buy or don't buy. 

That's why blackmagic is a welcome addition. Competition lowers prices and drives innovation. 

There will never be that "perfect" camera if you have the purchasing power of a consumer. Technological advances and expectations will always keep you wanting.

 

[Rinad Amir]

1 hour ago, independent said:

Oh the crazy Japanese. Oh wait, Apple does it too. Oh wait, so does any consumer electronics company. It's called economics in the 21st century, with mass production, globalization, etc. 

Ah, the days when you had two sets of clothes, one pair of shoes, and it cost you 6 months salary to buy that "television?"

You're demanding a perfect camera so you won't have to buy another camera again for the rest of your life. If you want that bargain, then you'd have to make it profitable enough for that company. Buy that Alexa.

No? Then you have to deal with compromises and shop at h&m like the rest of the masses and follow the seasonal trends.

Look, even apple is struggling because the 5s is good enough for too many people. Ironically, their phones became too good, satisfying consumers as well as pushing their competitors. So Apple now has pressure because consumers are spending less money than expected. That's the power you as a consumer wield.

These are consumer electronics companies, and you are the consumer market. There's really only one way to clearly communicate to the company. Buy or don't buy. 

That's why blackmagic is a welcome addition. Competition lowers prices and drives innovation. 

There will never be that "perfect" camera if you have the purchasing power of a consumer. Technological advances and expectations will always keep you wanting.

 

Well said.

[Kino]

3 hours ago, independent said:

Oh the crazy Japanese. Oh wait, Apple does it too. Oh wait, so does any consumer electronics company. It's called economics in the 21st century, with mass production, globalization, etc. 

Ah, the days when you had two sets of clothes, one pair of shoes, and it cost you 6 months salary to buy that "television?"

You're demanding a perfect camera so you won't have to buy another camera again for the rest of your life. If you want that bargain, then you'd have to make it profitable enough for that company. Buy that Alexa.

No? Then you have to deal with compromises and shop at h&m like the rest of the masses and follow the seasonal trends.

Look, even apple is struggling because the 5s is good enough for too many people. Ironically, their phones became too good, satisfying consumers as well as pushing their competitors. So Apple now has pressure because consumers are spending less money than expected. That's the power you as a consumer wield.

These are consumer electronics companies, and you are the consumer market. There's really only one way to clearly communicate to the company. Buy or don't buy. 

That's why blackmagic is a welcome addition. Competition lowers prices and drives innovation. 

There will never be that "perfect" camera if you have the purchasing power of a consumer. Technological advances and expectations will always keep you wanting.

 

"21st century"? Actually these trends started decades ago. And no one is saying Apple doesn't do it, but Sony and Canon were around long before Apple. At least with the iPhone, the most expensive and latest model, the 6S Plus, has all the best features. Not so with Canon and Sony on the 1DX II and A7SII, respectively, so the comparison doesn't hold in this case. Apple doesn't make you buy two different versions of the same thing just to have the different features and iPhones don't cost $6,000-8,000.

As for my suggestion to wait for the 1DC II as the perfect marriage of the two 1D lines, this was intended for a forum member who doesn't like either the 1DC or the 1DX II.

Personally, I would be very happy to shoot with the 1DC just as it is today. In fact, I was disappointed when Canon announced a higher resolution for the new 1DX II sensor since it meant a reduction in the size of the photosites and an accompanying loss in signal-to-noise performance on the new generation. Perhaps this is why the test above showed more noise in the 1DX II image. While technologically more advanced in terms of video features (DPAF, 4K60p), the 1DX II is a downgrade from the 1DC in terms of DR, color gamut (in addition to greater DR, C-Log also provides a wider and richer color gamut for grading), and noise performance. It's a shame that Canon made these compromises with the 1DX II just to protect the Cinema EOS line.

[independent]

Completely contrary to facts. Apple faced and still faces the very same issues. Jobs himself was famously quoted as saying apple shouldn't be afraid to cannabilize it's own product lines, because if it doesn't, somebody else will. Every major consumer electronics company with integrated product lines faces this issue. Product lines stagnate, die, are reborn - all dictated by profit maximization. That's happening with Apple, like it is with Samsung, Sony.

I wanted a MacBook Air with a retina screen. Apple didn't give that me. I had to spend more to get a pro. They came out with a MacBook retina, except it was powered like an iPad. I'm not happy. Apple doesn't care, because they're in the business of making money. 

You're making the same complaints about canon. They don't care what you specifically want. They care about making money.

Also, the 1DX II is not the most expensive dslr camera from canon. The 1DC retails for more. $2K more. It's a different camera. 

The 1DX II doesn't need to have all the features you want. It is the best 1DX, however. What it isn't is the  1DC, which exists to provide those "cinema" related c-features. 

You're trying to tell canon to do what seems obvious to you. But your incentives aren't the same. They make decisions to maximize profits. You want them to give you the camera you want. They really don't care.

Its sucks, but really, it's useless bitching. Every company is trying to post short term profits. Its just reality in the 21st century. Or, try writing them a nice handwritten letter.

 

[Kino]

The 1D cameras are not mass produced and sold in the millions like iPhones or iPads. 1D cameras are marketed to photo and video professionals and "prosumers" with sales only in the thousands. One can and should have different expectations about consumer products that retail for $800 and professional products that retail for $8000 and come with a greater level of customer support. With so much competition in the $5000-10,000 4K video camera sector, Canon has really fallen behind and lost many customers to Sony, BMD, and even RED.

But, of course, as I mentioned Canon doesn't care about what we want or expect. They are a massive electronics conglomerate with a bottom line to meet for every quarter and very conservative ideas about market segmentation and product development. It they thought that providing affordable 4K cameras with the necessary features was part of that they would have already brought such cameras to market and not a C300 II for $16K.

[Luke Mason]

Cinema 5D mini review is up:

https://***URL not allowed***/canon-eos-1d-x-mark-ii-review-real-world-video-samples-first-impressions/

[gelaxstudio]

On 2016年6月3日 at 10:45 AM, independent said:

Its sucks, but really, it's useless bitching. Every company is trying to post short term profits. Its just reality in the 21st century. Or, try writing them a nice handwritten letter.

 

Apparently,5D4 will just like the 1DXII with ancient  codec and in lack of all cinema features

It is destined to be a fact in the  next 4 years,but many canon fans just feel hard to accept it

[Andrew Reid]

Total piece of shit review. I could have done better from using it for 5 minutes in a shop.

He had the privilege of a $6k camera and didn't even shoot with the 1080/120p, a major feature.

Criticised the screen for not articulating - did he really expect an articulated screen on a pro-Canon body?!

In my view he is just pushing these pieces out as fast as possible to garner the traffic, to feed the ads, to feed the ego, to feed the bank account. I much prefer the blog / forum of passionate independent artisans to the 'managed community platform' made for the benefit of some corporate sponsors.

[jcs]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Total piece of shit review. I could have done better from using it for 5 minutes in a shop.

He had the privilege of a $6k camera and didn't even shoot with the 1080/120p, a major feature.

Criticised the screen for not articulating - did he really expect an articulated screen on a pro-Canon body?!

In my view he is just pushing these pieces out as fast as possible to garner the traffic, to feed the ads, to feed the ego, to feed the bank account. There's a horrible whiff of the 'managed community' about it, full of corporate sponsors.

He used the camera to shoot a mini-doc, he told a story; I think he did a pretty good job. Then he discussed how it performed doing the job. A flip out screen would be nice, sounded more like a wish list item (something like a SmallHD 502 effectively solves the need). I stopped using 1080 on the 1DX II as the quality is so much better in 4K (and scaled to 1080p for 1080p projects). The tradeoff is less recording time and storage costs (though minimal as hard drives are so cheap). I haven't even tried 1080p 120 (60 slowed to 24 (2.5x) is good enough. Still have the FS700 for up to 240, but we just haven't needed it (probably sell it soon). The A7S II does decent 1080p 120. The 1DX II's 1080p 120 might be OK for a face close up (similar to 5D3 H.264 resolution, but with aliasing). 

What is the value of a forum post? Does it contribute knowledge to the community, does it help people, does it solve a problem? Were you ironically joking with the ego comment? Pure technical tests are helpful, as you like to do to and adding a storytelling component where the camera is used in production is even more valuable. 

[richg101]

That review really shows how the lack of c-log impacts on the 1dxii being usable to produce images good enough for todays demands.  that blown window for example, would be blown on a 1dc, but the rolloff would be drastically more filmic.  i tell you what..  that tokina 11-16 doesn;t half produce vile images!  - i don;t think that helped the piece.  You can see he needed a wide, and because the camera doesnt give good results in full frame mode, the stellar wides available in the L series are no longer wides due to needing to go for a sensor crop.  for a film about craft, a handycam feel to the highlight rolloff isn;t good enough IMO.  

[Andrew Reid]

@jcs So this is your definition of Shakespeare is it? The boring pot woman is telling the story. Johnnie is just pointing his camera at her and editing out the 'ums and ahs'.

She's not so much telling a story as reeling off a bunch of facts about her business.

Just as a cafe owner would in an advert for his cafe.

As far as the storytelling goes, it is 100% advert, 0% fiction.

The great reality distortion field of the modern video industry is that the word "Filmmaker" and "Storyteller" are used with abandon, peppered around to garnish the not very appealing stake which never sizzles.

Just a bunch of over-privilaged over-monied middle class egotists going about their self promotion ritual. It's not more worthy than one of us making a cinematography mood piece without any explicit story or characters. For me that is the superior art form and this pottery advert is just completely forgettable trash with a facade of high production values... Just because it's "Real-world" content, doesn't make it on-par with Kubrick's stuff you know?!

[Nikkor]

Andrew you don't get it, he is doing an antropologic study on zerman housewives. The shitty LUT and zerman english (like mine) are a stylistic choice used to emphasize the feeling of emptiness that governs germany following the destruction of german culture by the nazis,russians and allies.

[Andrew Reid]

8 minutes ago, Nikkor said:

Andrew you don't get it, he is doing an antropologic study on zerman housewives. The shitty LUT and zerman english (like mine) are a stylistic choice used to emphasize the feeling of emptiness that governs germany following the destruction of german culture by the nazis,russians and allies.

In that case it all makes perfect sense

[Steve Adams]

Canon has inventory still remaining on 1DC, so no C Log until 1DCs are emptied from warehouse. Everyone at Canon knows the value of C Log added to 1 DX II -- however the bigger deal is what it means to 5D IV-- no 10bit, certainly even no antiquated C Log.  Canon got lucky with their initial 5Ds -- and they continue to follow their tried and true sell the 'ink cartridges' -- lens rather than work to deliver a better copier, er 4K DSLR.  Canon's short legacy is over with the exception of their great customer service.

[Luke Mason]

1 hour ago, richg101 said:

That review really shows how the lack of c-log impacts on the 1dxii being usable to produce images good enough for todays demands.  that blown window for example, would be blown on a 1dc, but the rolloff would be drastically more filmic.  i tell you what..  that tokina 11-16 doesn;t half produce vile images!  - i don;t think that helped the piece.  You can see he needed a wide, and because the camera doesnt give good results in full frame mode, the stellar wides available in the L series are no longer wides due to needing to go for a sensor crop.  for a film about craft, a handycam feel to the highlight rolloff isn;t good enough IMO.  

the Canon 11-24 is pretty stellar, plus the camera can remove chromatic abberation and lens vignette in camera on the fly when doing video.