Panavision DXL revealed, an 8K 60fps RAW cinema camera using RED's codec

[Andrew Reid]

57 minutes ago, Nikkor said:

The difference between 6k to 4k and 8k to 4k is something you won't see in a motion picture. In fact, given the larger sensor the alexa will give more resolution. Even panavision tries to explain this effect in a video in a very cute and wrong way.

It does make a difference to a motion picture, as it allows a full frame look in 8K mode and maintains enough resolution (4K) in Super 35 mode for both looks to be utilised on a film.

Don't just look at the resolution numbers. It's about lenses as well, the full system.

[jgharding]

Amazing! I'm sure I'll never touch one, but it's nice to see Red licensing that amazing codec. I wonder if they'll license to others?

8K is crazy when you thing about a TV, but it's a smart bet when you consider VR production. That'll be at 4K per eye or more in a generation or so. Resolution is no longer about panels across the room, but stereoscopic screens right next to your eyes behind fresnel lenses.

In this location, even 8k might not be enough...

[gethin]

my half-awake brain read it as panasonic.  Mind blown briefly... and was wondering if that codec might trickle down...  Ah well, guess we wont be having red codec 16bit on the gh5 then :D

[AaronChicago]

8 hours ago, jgharding said:

Amazing! I'm sure I'll never touch one, but it's nice to see Red licensing that amazing codec. I wonder if they'll license to others?

8K is crazy when you thing about a TV, but it's a smart bet when you consider VR production. That'll be at 4K per eye or more in a generation or so. Resolution is no longer about panels across the room, but stereoscopic screens right next to your eyes behind fresnel lenses.

In this location, even 8k might not be enough...

This is true. I think we've hit a limit on pleasing image resolution for home entertainment, and possibly even theater. Headsets are going to be where high resolution will pay off big time.

[dbp]

What's wrong with R3D? It's a great codec.

[Geoff CB]

1 hour ago, duffman said:

Why the fuck does this use R3D? Guessing this is just a rebranded red cam right?

You want to shoot uncompressed 8K? Good luck on storing that.

[ND64]

21 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

This is true. I think we've hit a limit on pleasing image resolution for home entertainment, and possibly even theater. Headsets are going to be where high resolution will pay off big time.

While VR industry is going to be big, but TV is far from finished. with cheaper OLED tech we'll have wall sized flexible  panels. or with new efficient laser projectors, any flat surface of your house can be used as gigantic screen. and I'm sure in those cases, our heavily compressed 2k and 4k files are going to look terrible! 

[AaronChicago]

1 hour ago, Eric Calabros said:

While VR industry is going to be big, but TV is far from finished. with cheaper OLED tech we'll have wall sized flexible  panels. or with new efficient laser projectors, any flat surface of your house can be used as gigantic screen. and I'm sure in those cases, our heavily compressed 2k and 4k files are going to look terrible! 

Yeah compression and color could be improved, but resolution? 70" TV's look good in 4K. Like you said, I'm far more interested in HDR and OLED images.

[tupp]

23 hours ago, duffman said:

Why the fuck does this use R3D? Guessing this is just a rebranded red cam right?

I saw the camera at Cinegear yesterday.  I asked one of the reps why they collaborated with Red on this camera, and he said that Panavision's newly acquired Light Iron division pushed the partnership (and helped design the camera's color science), because Light Iron was strongly Red oriented when it was an independent DIT/finishing house.

 

It's not just a "rebranded" Red camera -- they evidently put some effort into "Panavising" it and changing not just the ergonomics, but also the image.

 

By the way, the Panavision rep also said that the camera probably won't be available for the plebeians until 2017.  Also, when asked about special lens mounts for alternative medium format lenses, the rep said that they might consider making special mounts on a piecemeal basis, but that they would probably prefer to adapt a lens to the Panavision mount and keep it in their rental stock.

[jax_rox]

12 hours ago, tupp said:

By the way, the Panavision rep also said that the camera probably won't be available for the plebeians until 2017.  Also, when asked about special lens mounts for alternative medium format lenses, the rep said that they might consider making special mounts on a piecemeal basis, but that they would probably prefer to adapt a lens to the Panavision mount and keep it in their rental stock.

Panavision don't sell cameras, so there's no real need or point to adapt to different lens mounts, unless there's a large number of DPs requesting it. And really, despite the rhetoric about the colour science and panavising, it's essentially a Weapon in a Panavision body (albeit, hopefully, with a custom OLPF), so if you want a different lens mount, you'd be served just as well by renting a weapon - and it'll probably be cheaper to rent as well!

On 2 June 2016 at 2:58 PM, Rockect Sky Sword said:

I really wonder why people don't complain about the weight of this cameras, but they do about the Ursa family, knowing that ARRI weight 16 lbs just like big URSA and the mini well, that's enough details. But, the DXL seems to be a candy. I can not guess what the hipsters are going to be complaining about this time.

Huh? This camera is 4.5 kgs. The Alexa is 6kg, the URSA is 7.4kg.

No-one (to my knowledge) has complained about the weight of an URSA Mini, just the 'original' URSA. And, to be honest, rightly so. It's heavier than an Alexa and less ergonomic (and the Alexa isn't super ergonomic).

I like that this camera is significantly easier to throw on your shoulder than a RED. The body design is not insignificant, especially if you're on the kind of productions that would be able to afford such a camera

[tupp]

1 hour ago, jax_rox said:

Panavision don't sell cameras

That certainly is earth-shattering news...

 

1 hour ago, jax_rox said:

so there's no real need or point to adapt to different lens mounts

Actually, the fact that Panavision only rents is the very reason why they have more flexibility to make specialty items and one-offs, compared to the other manufacturers who only make money off of sales/service.  In fact, Panavision has bragged about that advantage over the years, and, indeed, when I asked the Panavision rep about a special front plate, he smiled and said, "we only rent, and we make what we rent, so we can fabricate whatever we want to fit onto our cameras."

 

Here are just a few of the specialty items that Panavision has made/adapted over the years, which they still rent.

 

If some ASC member wants to adapt his old Hasselblad glass to the DXL for a feature, you can bet tha Panavision will jump at the his/her request.

 

1 hour ago, jax_rox said:

And really, despite the rhetoric about the colour science and panavising, it's essentially a Weapon in a Panavision body

I wouldn't be so sure.  Light Iron is a high-end DIT/finishing outfit, and they have just a little bit of experience over the years in dealing with the shortcomings of Red color.  If they initiated the collaboration between Panavision and Red and if they were involved in the design/engineering of the A/D converters and/or the color algorithms of the DXL, I would guess that the image from the DXL is a step or two above that of a stock RED unit.

 

Furthermore, even without their Light Iron division, Panavision has been no slouch in regards to their past digital cameras.  In addition, I am fairly sure that they still own the Dynamax sensor foundry.

 

 

1 hour ago, jax_rox said:

and it'll probably be cheaper to rent as well!

I also wouldn't be so sure of that, as Panavision is known for making deals.

[jax_rox]

2 hours ago, tupp said:

Actually, the fact that Panavision only rents is the very reason why they have more flexibility to make specialty items and one-offs, compared to the other manufacturers who only make money off of sales/service.  In fact, Panavision has bragged about that advantage over the years, and, indeed, when I asked the Panavision rep about a special front plate, he smiled and said, "we only rent, and we make what we rent, so we can fabricate whatever we want to fit onto our cameras."

Here are just a few of the specialty items that Panavision has made/adapted over the years, which they still rent.

If some ASC member wants to adapt his old Hasselblad glass to the DXL for a feature, you can bet tha Panavision will jump at the his/her request.

Hence why I said 'if there's demand'. There are even some PL mount Panny cams floating around because there was enough demand. Panavision is a great company (though, apparently, not overly profitable ) and it is certainly to their benefit that they can manufacture whatever they want/need. I'm just saying, the major of cameras Panavision rent out are PV mount. As I say, if there's demand for it, they'll make it (which is exactly what the rep told you according to your post), but the push and idea will be to use PV lenses. And why wouldn't you? 

2 hours ago, tupp said:

I wouldn't be so sure.  Light Iron is a high-end DIT/finishing outfit, and they have just a little bit of experience over the years in dealing with the shortcomings of Red color.  If they initiated the collaboration between Panavision and Red and if they were involved in the design/engineering of the A/D converters and/or the color algorithms of the DXL, I would guess that the image from the DXL is a step or two above that of a stock RED unit.

Furthermore, even without their Light Iron division, Panavision has been no slouch in regards to their past digital cameras.  In addition, I am fairly sure that they still own the Dynamax sensor foundry.

Light Iron are a great company. And I don't mean to suggest that their collaboration is a small thing thing. But, at the end of the day it's essentially a Panavised Red. And raw is raw. I imagine if you took Weapon raw footage to Light Iron, they could get you something that looks identical to what you would get out of an MDXL, assuming we're not getting Light Iron designed AD and OLPF. If we are, that's different, and I'm hoping that that is exactly what we're getting. Even then, I'd be very surprised if you couldn't get a Weapon to intercut seamlessly with it (might just take a lot more work - again, no small thing).

I'm thinking of the Genesis vs the F35, F900 vs HD900F, Millenium DXL vs Weapon.. I assume the MDXL will have the Panavision 'magic', but at its core it's a Weapon.

I was under the impression Panavision sold Dynamax off a few years ago, which is a shame.

2 hours ago, tupp said:

I also wouldn't be so sure of that, as Panavision is known for making deals.

... As is every rental house. Not to mention that there will almost certainly be significantly more RED Weapons in the wild than DXLs (considering you can actually buy them). The advantage of cameras that can be bought is the owner/operators who are happy to rent out at a cheap price to a friend, or to make a bit extra, or because the camera's sitting there whilst they're not working. If the demand for the DXL is anything like I imagine it will be, it's possible there won't be DXLs sitting around to make deals on. But there might be.

[jax_rox]

1 hour ago, duffman said:

That wasn't my point. It is a good codec, it just seems a bit random for Panavision to have chosen it. 

They didn't really choose the codec so much as they chose to use the sensor, electronics and software of a RED weapon, so part of that is .r3d

You also get ProRes, and a million video outs to go to whatever recorder you please, so it's not like you don't have a choice..

[Andrew Reid]

On 3 June 2016 at 6:41 PM, duffman said:

Why the fuck does this use R3D? Guessing this is just a rebranded red cam right?

Why are you guessing when all the info is laid out right in front of you. It's obvious it isn't just a rebranded RED camera!

It's a Panavision camera with a RED sensor and codec.

Just a sensor and codec does not make a camera.

The lenses, ergonomics, colour science and build quality all go on top.

If you made a box with a sensor, some wires and a codec, it would be pretty shit

On 3 June 2016 at 1:57 AM, jgharding said:

Amazing! I'm sure I'll never touch one, but it's nice to see Red licensing that amazing codec. I wonder if they'll license to others?

I absolutely love the RED codec. Hope they do license it to more companies. Unlikely in my view, but the hope is there

I could be wrong but I think RED own quite a lot of important patents to do with RAW compression... Which could explain why none of the others have come up with a decent compressed RAW codec yet.

Cinema DNG 3:1 just doesn't cut it by comparison!

On 3 June 2016 at 1:57 AM, jgharding said:

8K is crazy when you thing about a TV, but it's a smart bet when you consider VR production. That'll be at 4K per eye or more in a generation or so. Resolution is no longer about panels across the room, but stereoscopic screens right next to your eyes behind fresnel lenses.

In this location, even 8k might not be enough...

I can see this being the main route of 8K into the consumer market actually!

You don't need it when the viewing distances are longer, like with TVs.

... VR on the otherhand!!

[jax_rox]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Why are you guessing when all the info is laid out right in front of you. It's obvious it isn't just a rebranded RED camera!

It's a Panavision camera with a RED sensor and codec.

Just a sensor and codec does not make a camera.

The lenses, ergonomics, colour science and build quality all go on top.

The DXL that's on the floor at Cinegear is using a RED sensor, RED OLPF, RED Colour science and RED software. This will obviously(assumedly?) change, but in its current alpha state, it's essentially the innards of a RED in a very nice Panavision body. The new body looks great, and is significantly more ergo than any other RED that's ever been made (unless you count the Xenomorph, but even then it's probably more ergo than that). Lens mount - there are plenty of PanArris, PanREDs, and PanSony's sitting in Panavision offices around the world.

I agree with you that sensor and codec don't make a camera. But they contribute a lot to the way the image reacts.

I also think this looks like a great camera. But will the image be significantly better or different to a RED Weapon? Be interesting to see how the image compares between a DXL and a PanRed. Again, I'm talking image - obviously the DXL is designed for high-end studio work. The double menu screens is an amazing idea

Personally, I think there's some pretty damn great offerings at the high-end of cameras at the moment. We're spoiled for choice, even at the lower end.

Wonder if this camera will have Panalog?

[tupp]

On 6/5/2016 at 2:49 AM, jax_rox said:

Hence why I said 'if there's demand'. There are even some PL mount Panny cams floating around because there was enough demand. Panavision is a great company (though, apparently, not overly profitable ) and it is certainly to their benefit that they can manufacture whatever they want/need. I'm just saying, the major of cameras Panavision rent out are PV mount. As I say, if there's demand for it, they'll make it (which is exactly what the rep told you according to your post), but the push and idea will be to use PV lenses. And why wouldn't you?

No.  The Panavision rep didn't say anything about "demand."   Panavison does "one-offs."   They are known for dong so.  They are proud of doing so.

 

There doesn't have to be any huge "demand."  An ASC member or some DP with a big project might ask them for something special, and there is a good chance that they will provide it (probably based on whether or not they make it without too much expense).  After the customer is finished, they put the part on the shelf, and sometimes it gets rented again or sometimes it doesn't.

 

Panavision can operate in this fashion because they don't have to sell anything.  The old Clairmont Camera outfit worked similarly, making specialty items that individuals would request, but Clairmont was a little more active in trying to rent out the special items.

[jax_rox]

1 hour ago, tupp said:

No.  The Panavision rep didn't say anything about "demand."   Panavison does "one-offs."   They are known for dong so.  They are proud of doing so.

 

There doesn't have to be any huge "demand."  An ASC member or some DP with a big project might ask them for something special, and there is a good chance that they will provide it (probably based on whether or not they make it without too much expense).  After the customer is finished, they put the part on the shelf, and sometimes it gets rented again or sometimes it doesn't.

 

Panavision can operate in this fashion because they don't have to sell anything.  The old Clairmont Camera outfit worked similarly, making specialty items that individuals would request, but Clairmont was a little more active in trying to rent out the special items.

I'm not sure where I said that 'demand' must mean thousands of people asking for something. A big enough name asking is big enough demand. 

[jgharding]

One wonders if Light Iron have got involved in the analogue gain and AD stages of the sensor too, in order to make this sensor somewhat bespoke.

AFAIK Arri hold a patent on the dual-gain sensor readout (can someone confirm?), which is the technology responsible for Alexa and family still having the cleanest shadows on the market. But perhaps there are ways around it? Colour science needn't just be a digital thing!

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

I am very interestes in seeing side by sides with the Weapon with the same chip. I wonder how much difference it makes in image quality the Iron Coloe science/new LOG, with different cooling systems. 

This is a bit similar to how Panavision used to work. Panavize cameras. As an example the Sony F35 and the Genesis, both very similar but do have key differences like the colour science and LOG gamma mode and body tweaks, plus the support of Panavision that comes with it in terms of parts, on-set repairmen, integrated top-notch lenses, etc. 

Glad they're in business again as Arri is getting overly arrogant. 

Just wondering how the image looks vs the Red. I hope it's more Arri/film like with smooth and organic look rather than RED which us good but in my opinion needs a colour science and gamma tweak to get away from that Red signature that's not particularly filmic. Blackmagic and Arri has this film signature.

 

I wonder if there's a difference in gamma, highlight rolloff, colours, noise floor, and overall IQ. 

I think there is. Panavision is not just panavizing here as with the f35, a bit higher level than that, they're making a new camera justy utilising the FF 36mp sensor made by Red and their efficient codec. 

The body seems to be integrated and would work in Arri environments perfectly, with some benefits over arri. The weight, it can be easily gone to handheld, can easily go on a steadicam, has internal wireless lens control (something all features crave for now), 

and it looks sexy. 

[Andrew Reid]

8 hours ago, jgharding said:

One wonders if Light Iron have got involved in the analogue gain and AD stages of the sensor too, in order to make this sensor somewhat bespoke.

AFAIK Arri hold a patent on the dual-gain sensor readout (can someone confirm?), which is the technology responsible for Alexa and family still having the cleanest shadows on the market. But perhaps there are ways around it? Colour science needn't just be a digital thing!

The Arri patent is key, if you look at the Alexa and its dynamic range advantage on the competition, it's still holding up today in 2016. The Alexa was introduced in 2010!!

In 2012, Canon's flagship dynamic range with the 1D X / 1D C sensor pretty much peaked.

We see very little dynamic range improvement with the 1D X Mark II, 4 years later.

Sony / Nikon full frame sensors still can't match the Alexa after 6 years of trying, although the full res stills files (raw at least) are getting closer.