Canon XC10 versus Sony RX10 III. The Canon is underrated!

[mercer]

8 minutes ago, tomsemiterrific said:

No problem--though I'm far from an expert on this...much better people than me to consult--people with real talent and skill.

Nah, you've been most helpful... One may say you're even a little more than semi terrific. Seriously though, I really appreciate your help. This is why I comment so much at this forum... It's filled with helpful filmmakers with a passion for the craft, both technically and creatively. 

[mercer]

I came upon this XC10 video, on YouTube, a few days back and it was one of the deciding factors for me to hit buy.

 

[mat33]

Well, I just called my local camera store and ordered a XC10 (I try to buy local as much as I can, as we only have one decent camera store).  They were a bit like 'you're sure you want one of those' so the initial bad reviews have certainly made their mark.  

I am now in a bizarre situation where the largest sensor I own, is in my smallest camera (a ricoh GR).

[tomsemiterrific]

On June 3, 2016 at 5:09 PM, MattH said:

 The only thing that sours me to it is the lack of super wide angle option.  If you need another camera to do that then theres no reason to use that camera to do what the XC10 does as well.

The XC10 can use Canon's wide angle lens (WD-H58W wide converter lens) mounted on the XC10 lens.It's not all that heavy, easy to use, and you're only going to put it on for wide angle, so lugging it around on the camera won't wear you out. 

I use it when I want wide angle shots and it works very well. The downside is the H58W doesn't have threads for a Variable ND. Still, with just the XC10s internal ND you can get the vast number of your wide angle shots without clipping highlights--especially if you shoot in Log. 

I actually took an 80mm variable ND which, as chance would have it fit snuggly over the H58W with only a bit of tape inside of the rim of the Vari ND. Using it on the end of the H58W it works great in the harshest sun the light is easily controlled and you never clip.

Once I'm done with my wide angle shots I simply take the lens off and shoot the rest. 

 

[mercer]

So I had a good run with the camera today and I am pretty pleased with it. The 5-Axis is almost steady cam level... Not quite because I don't want to over play it, but I was able to track with my actor pretty darn well. 

Here's my first attempt at trying to color some c-log...

 

 

And here is my graded version.

 

[kidzrevil]

@mercer it has a nice soft feel to it. Very filmic. 

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

@mercer it has a nice soft feel to it. Very filmic. 

Feel free to give it a go... I'd like to see what you can do with it. 

[bunk]

I'm not Kidz 'r Evil, but gave it a try anyway... Feels like solid footage.

[Herb]

How about "Bunk 'iz Evil" 

[mercer]

44 minutes ago, bunk said:

I'm not Kidz 'r Evil, but gave it a try anyway... Feels like solid footage.

Anyone feel free. This looks good. You were able to bring the hazy blue out of the sky... That's what I'm attempting this morning. 

[tugela]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 8:16 PM, mat33 said:

Well, I just called my local camera store and ordered a XC10 (I try to buy local as much as I can, as we only have one decent camera store).  They were a bit like 'you're sure you want one of those' so the initial bad reviews have certainly made their mark.  

I am now in a bizarre situation where the largest sensor I own, is in my smallest camera (a ricoh GR).

It is not the reviews, it is more a case of it occupying a niche that it doesn't fit into. It is not quite a video camera ergonomically, but it isn't really a stills camera either. It was marketed as a hybrid, but there are far better options in the hybrid segment that do both functions really well. The GH4, NX1 and FF Sony cameras for example. That is the problem with the camera. IMO they would have been better off building the electronics into something like the G/XA series and updating that line for 4K instead. Ultimately that is the niche that would actually use the XC10, but even then I expect those users would have preferred the G/XA body. If they had done that in the first place I think the camera would haven been considerably more successful than it has been. But instead they chose to make a stab at the hybrid market, but implemented it poorly so that it does not really fit the bill.

[MattH]

On 25/07/2016 at 8:28 AM, tomsemiterrific said:

The XC10 can use Canon's wide angle lens (WD-H58W wide converter lens) mounted on the XC10 lens.It's not all that heavy, easy to use, and you're only going to put it on for wide angle, so lugging it around on the camera won't wear you out. 

I use it when I want wide angle shots and it works very well. The downside is the H58W doesn't have threads for a Variable ND. Still, with just the XC10s internal ND you can get the vast number of your wide angle shots without clipping highlights--especially if you shoot in Log. 

I actually took an 80mm variable ND which, as chance would have it fit snuggly over the H58W with only a bit of tape inside of the rim of the Vari ND. Using it on the end of the H58W it works great in the harshest sun the light is easily controlled and you never clip.

Once I'm done with my wide angle shots I simply take the lens off and shoot the rest. 

 

Do you have any examples of the image with this converter installed.  I cant seem to find any online.

[bunk]

6 hours ago, mercer said:

You were able to bring the hazy blue out of the sky...

I'm afraid there is no such thing. The sky is more or less completely blown. What I did is color the highlights, you can see it in his hair as well.

 

btw In the upper left corner in the sky there is a weird stripe, shows in the occ as well ...any idea what it is. Insect flying by?

[mercer]

A vertical stripe? Yeah I do see that now that you mention it... good eye. Unfortunately, no I have no idea what it is... quite possibly an insect... it is pretty swampy out there.

And yeah, it looked blown out to me too, that's why I was surprised you got the bluish/green... good fix. Zebras at 70% and it's still hard to not blow out the highlights in this mid afternoon sun.

Have a go at this one, if you want.

Here's my version...

[bunk]

Here you go...

There is some macro blocking in the sky

[mercer]

3 hours ago, bunk said:

Here you go...

There is some macro blocking in the sky

Yeah, I noticed the macroblocking too. I transferred the footage to ProRes 422 via EditReady before I brought it into FCPX and then I exported as a JPEG screengrab, so I'll check the footage on the card and see what's up.

What program do you use for color... It looks pretty good. 

17 hours ago, tugela said:

It is not the reviews, it is more a case of it occupying a niche that it doesn't fit into. It is not quite a video camera ergonomically, but it isn't really a stills camera either. It was marketed as a hybrid, but there are far better options in the hybrid segment that do both functions really well. The GH4, NX1 and FF Sony cameras for example. That is the problem with the camera. IMO they would have been better off building the electronics into something like the G/XA series and updating that line for 4K instead. Ultimately that is the niche that would actually use the XC10, but even then I expect those users would have preferred the G/XA body. If they had done that in the first place I think the camera would haven been considerably more successful than it has been. But instead they chose to make a stab at the hybrid market, but implemented it poorly so that it does not really fit the bill.

I'm not sure I understand this... The XC10 was always marketed as a professional camcorder. It's described as such in all of their literature. It's listed with other professional camcorders at most stores. It shares the "C" moniker with the C line of cinema camcorders. The reviewers decided to compare it to hybrids, but Canon has been pretty consistent with what it is. 

[bunk]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

What program do you use for color... It looks pretty good. 

Thanks.

I’m using DaVinci Resolve on my desktop and AE 5.5 on my laptop. ‘Binoculars’ was graded in Resolve and ‘ungraded C-log’ in AE, but the setup I use is the same and could be used in any NLE.

In AE I use Adjustment layers, as if I had the nodes you can find in Resolve.

First three nodes are my basic setup, second set of nodes I use to color grade. The middle node of the first set is always the curve of the profile the footage was shot in. The two other nodes are used to balance low middle high. From Left-to-Right: 02, 01 C-log2_180, 03

ACABADABRA… the middle node could probably just as well be a simple S-curve or something, but for some reason when I use the 180 degrees rotated curve of the profile the footage was shot with, the first and third node curve “keep close” to their initial shape. Come to think of it, al those  curves have more or less the same shape  (C-log2 and CineD are almost identical (if you fit them in a square)) so no wonder it fits my workflow

First node (04) second set is usually just the red and blue curve adjusted to my likings in the lower left corner in this case I manipulated middle and top as well.

Second node (05) is a correction on the previous node. Dragging those curves can make you do over the top things. My favorite tool for this is the RGB mixer or Channel mixer (in AE). I start with the Blue-Blue channel. Just touching it makes you aware if there is any need to shift in the blues. I then do the same with the Red-Red, if it looks weird you know you don’t have to use that channel. I hardly ever touch Green-Green, but I realize now that I hardly ever touch the green curve in the previous node , there might be some correlation. When the “masters” are done I continue with the minions, Blue-Red Blue-Green etc.
By this time I’m completely colorblind and tend to look at some other picture on my HD to compare with what I have done so far. In this case I added a third node to add some contrast, I then called it a day. However you can go crazy and keep adding nodes as there is no end to color grading.

[tugela]

6 hours ago, mercer said:

Yeah, I noticed the macroblocking too. I transferred the footage to ProRes 422 via EditReady before I brought it into FCPX and then I exported as a JPEG screengrab, so I'll check the footage on the card and see what's up.

What program do you use for color... It looks pretty good. 

I'm not sure I understand this... The XC10 was always marketed as a professional camcorder. It's described as such in all of their literature. It's listed with other professional camcorders at most stores. It shares the "C" moniker with the C line of cinema camcorders. The reviewers decided to compare it to hybrids, but Canon has been pretty consistent with what it is. 

No, Canon initially marketed it as a hybrid. That is why reviewers were comparing it to hybrids.

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, tugela said:

No, Canon initially marketed it as a hybrid. That is why reviewers were comparing it to hybrids.

No they didn't... "multi media tool" is mentioned once in the initial press release whereas "camcorder" shows up 19 times. Never once in the press release is the word "hybrid" used.

http://www.dvinfo.net/news/canon-usa-introduces-xc10-4k-camcorder.html

Reviewers were comparing it to hybrids because of the form factor and built in lens. Canon marketed it as a professional camcorder. After using it for a few days, I feel it deserves the moniker, professional cine-camcorder.

Or prosumer cine camcorder if you prefer.

[mercer]

@bunk it's pretty interesting seeing other people's workflow, there's usually something I take from it. I use the FCPX Color Board for exposure and saturation and the Color Finale plug in for color balance, LUT (if I use one, I am trying to get better without using any LUTS) and any master S-Curve, or RGB curve tweak. I have been watching a few tutorials... hopefully they'll start sinking in... probably not because I have a horrible attention span. Btw, if you care, I did check the original footage and there was no macro blocking. Also none in the converted ProRes files. But when I added too many layers in the grade I notice some showing up in that blue sky, especially when I used an Impulz LUT... of course I liked my Impulz LUT grade the best...