4K RAW 120fps for £3k?! Say hello to the second-hand Canon C500

[dhessel]

41 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Actually I seem to remember reading that not even the 12bit RGB 2K needs debayering, due to the way the sensor is designed.

That is correct. It has a 4K sensor so when recording 2K RGB there are 4 sensels for every final pixel. Rather than debayering it just takes the 4 pixels 1 red, 1 blue, and 2 green and creates one final pixel with true RGB 4:4:4. Basically it doesn't approximate the RGB values like debayering does. It does have a standard RGGB bayer pattern like most cameras these days.

It works in a similar way that the F35 does but the F35 has a nearly 6K sensor with a totally different color layout. It has 5760 2160 pixel tall columns each with a single color. So you have one red column a green column then a blue column with that pattern continued across the image. Then these colums are split out and stacked on top of each other to create full RGB pixels across a 1920 image.

Each final pixel is comprised of 6 sensels, 2 red, 2 blue and 2 green non-debayered pixels. It samples all 3 color channels 2 times which is the nyquist limit combined with the color rendition and global shutter from a CCD sensor it has arguably one of the best HD images of any camera ever made. But as I can personally confirm the camera is a beast. Ergonomics, size and the built in ND's are a large advantage for the Canon.

[Leica50mm]

I thought long and hard about getting a C500/Odessey .  In the end i went Red Epic and am really glad i did. Self contained 4K raw 120 fps .The RECODE compression is a thing of beauty .   With everyone trading up to the new DMSC II bodies,  there's going to be some really good deals on used Epics and DSMC I AKs soon.    Also, red offers upgrade paths on new cameras.  

[Shield3]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes that's what I'm saying, it has an OLPF.

It's a very nice image, if you need 2K raw then it's the best bargain ever...

The problem is however that it's just not robust enough for an important occasion or shoot. The other issue is the file sizes. The Odyssey remember can debayer the C500's raw and it goes straight to the SSD as ProRes LT, very small file sizes by comparison to Magic Lantern.

The 2K RGB can also go down as ProRes.

Then you can drop it straight into Premiere and put a LUT on it (that works with Canon LOG).

On a 5D Mark III shoot you in one hand for $1700 with no rigging or monitor you're squinting at a postage-stamp sized non-articulated screen with a very tricky to focus full frame sensor, hoping that the card isn't fragmented to the point where it might just stop in the middle of a critical non-repeatable shot. Then you find that the card is full after just 12 minutes and you have to ask another person on the shoot to sort it out whilst you continue to try and direct and DP all at once. Following the shoot, you then get all the raw files into DaVinci Resolve but you're reliant on a piece of software that isn't primarily designed as an editor, so you do your colour work in there and then transcode it all to ProRes for editing in Premiere. I know Resolve has improved a lot as an editor, but it's still a big shift if you're not used to it.

So what I am saying is that it's not quite as simple as $1700.

Time is also money.

The camera doesn't debayer the raw, just converts it to the 10bit log space for SDI transport to the recorder.

Actually I seem to remember reading that not even the 12bit RGB 2K needs debayering, due to the way the sensor is designed.

Perhaps Larry Thorpe can come on the forum and tell us how they did it.

Well Andrew my $1700 out the door 5d3 raw is one hell of a lot closer than your $3k pound title for your c500...:)

No, I would not film anything that cannot be re-shot with the 5d3 + raw.  Just too flaky, even 3 years later.

[Oliver Daniel]

3 hours ago, Michael Coffee said:

Hey, the Kinifinity looks amazing - but we are talking about a camera that get's picked by DP's over Alexa's and Red's - that you could take out of a bag and start shooting with. If this had global shutter it could be the best camera in history, ha - but at about 16ms rolling shutter it's about as good as the RED's, F65's etc - I'm certain the Alexa's great rolling shutter, and global shutter is the last piece of the puzzle in having amazing, filmic cameras..

The Kinefinity Terra 5k has a global shutter.

I get picked for jobs for what ideas I film with a camera, rather than what I own... so the Terra, on paper, is more than ideal. 

[gnomesteel]

1 hour ago, Leica50mm said:

I thought long and hard about getting a C500/Odessey .  In the end i went Red Epic and am really glad i did. Self contained 4K raw 120 fps .The RECODE compression is a thing of beauty .   With everyone trading up to the new DMSC II bodies,  there's going to be some really good deals on used Epics and DSMC I AKs soon.    Also, red offers upgrade paths on new cameras.  

Yeah, I don't blame you. The Epic is still a great camera. Especially with the Dragon sensor. I'm also considering the Scarlet-W, but my problem with RED is just knowing when I can get one. Hard to drop almost $20k on something with no real idea of when it's coming. 

[User]

9 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

yeah What I love about these canon cinema camera's is the Internal ND's. They are just so damned easy to use on the field. 
People always disregard the C100, but is almost the same image as the C300. The c100 combined with a external recorder, the image is the same as the C300.(the only thing that sucks on the c100 is the screen and the viewfinder, but when you use a external monitor you got that sorted out. But you do kinda need to drag the external recorder/monitor along which not suit all needs + the lack of 60fps) And the c500 internal image is basically the came as the c300 without a external recorder. 

Each to their own but believe that the C100 Mk II is superior to the C300. Moreover, I've seen tests where it is almost impossible to see any benefits of using an external recorder. Expose/ white balance correctly and you have a very capable camera in a small package.

[Policar]

7 minutes ago, User said:

Each to their own but believe that the C100 Mk II is superior to the C300. Moreover, I've seen tests where it is almost impossible to see any benefits of using an external recorder. Expose/ white balance correctly and you have a very capable camera in a small package.

The C300 definitely holds onto more shadow detail at high ISOs than the C100 mk I. A really heavy grade can also pull the image apart if exposed wrong.

I think these are cameras for people who just want a simple path to a good image. The C500 is quite different (I find it to be a headache) but it also seems to have a lot of potential in the right hands. Definitely Canon's odd duck (it and the 1DC). The C500 does have SUPER sharp 4k.

The Alexa is in another league entirely from the C500 imo, but much softer.

[BenEricson]

7 hours ago, gnomesteel said:

The more I read about the C500 the more I want one. Might try to rent one for a day or two to figure out all the quirks. One answer I can't seem to find online is the audio workflow with the 7Q. @Andrew Reid, do you know how that works? I'm assuming XLR into the C500 which passes it through to the 7Q over SDI. 

Yes, it passes through. Same goes for the FS700/7Q. I use the C300mkii at work and the image is absolutely amazing. It's just beautiful to look at. I believe the C300ii and C500 have a comparable image.

[Damphousse]

Thanks for the thread.  I dismissed this camera years ago when I saw the price.  I just laughed and moved on.  I appreciate people like you reminding us we can get some pretty amazing crumbs that fall of the professionals' tables.

I guess the one thing we often lose sight of is those damn expensive Canon cameras will all eventually float down to the level where enthusiasts who keep an eye out can pick up solid cameras at heavy discounts.

[Lintelfilm]

On the subject of Canon + RAW, etc ...

It's only the first steps so far, but A1ex of ML fame has begun work on the 7D MkII. It'd be a great video camera with ML RAW. Arguably superior to the 5DIII. DAF, s35 sensor, native 60p. Burst rate is 10fps so clearly the buffer + CF card combo has good potential for RAW options. DAF + FHD RAW would be a first I believe. I'd suggest voicing interest & support on the ML forum if you're inclined - who knows how much motivation Canon ML coders have these days: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=13746.225 (A1ex's breakthrough is halfway down page).

[User]

6 hours ago, duffman said:

It creases me up to see you buying all these Canon cameras! Enjoy the new toy  

Oh yeah? My thinking is that it's more about how you use them. But we can agree to disagree.

[trafficn]

I can appreciate the tenor of the article seeing as I benefited from insane depreciation when I got a Sony F35, but I just can't help to comment on a few things I noticed while reading:

 

Quote

The 4096 x 1080 (which was added in a firmware update) on the other hand is a 1:1 crop – a cinematic wide aspect ratio, which should yield the better image and would allow for pan-and-scan 1920 x 1080 in post. Who needs a dolly?!

Is the bit about pan+scan and not needing a dolly part of the overall satire? If so that's... hilarious.

 

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Remember the Sony F35? This with its uncompressed 2K RGB recording from a lovely CCD sensor before the wonky colour of CMOS took over, was a cinematic powerhouse. Pink Floyd to 2016’s bunch of bearded Mumford & Sons wannabes.

The F35 will only output 1920x1080, not 2k. I absolutely prefer the CCD for various reasons but clearly more expensive CMOS chips with the right backend can produce strikingly accurate and pleasing colors as well.

 

Quote

To be honest I was never blown away by the C300’s internal recording in 1080p, but it’s nice to have the sheep in there when I’m doing something incredibly boring.

For 50Mbps, the internal MXFs out of the C300 are astonishingly competent and devoid of most artifacts that plague other higher bitrate systems- even those that shoot "RAW" (ahem... blackmagic....). I remember when I first got my C300- this was coming off shooting on a 7D for years- I was blown away. A 4K cmos churning out gorgeously crisp 1080 rgb images. Honestly too crisp, looking back. A few soft fx filters help when needed.

 

Quote

They [Canon Log] are far superior looking to Sony’s anaemic standard Rec.709 profile, Cine profiles or S-LOG.

How so? Log is log. The gammas may differ but what metrics or evaluations lead you to believe canon log is better than s-log? Smells of nonsense.

 

Quote

And that, my friends, is democracy manifest.

Eh, perhaps economic democracy but we can also thank our audiences for continuing to not give a shit about pretty pictures. Let's all bow to CONTENT, the authoritarian king of the universe.

 

 

 

[User]

Apologies for the misunderstanding. I am unfamiliar with the word 'creases' and it felt like a bit of a slag against Canon users. My comment was more towards the idea that it's about how the camera is used rather than the manufacturer.

[Flyrod]

I jumped in the pool and the water is great!  I have a BM 4K, but like the files coming out of this C500 better. It is hard to beat Canon color science. In my opinion color science is the essence of the image. When they packaged the C500 with the 7Q+ for what seemed an incredible price of $11,000 - $12,000, then Convergent Design ran a Summer special on the Raw Codecs....  I could not resist and pulled the trigger.

I have not played with it much yet, just shooting test shots side by side with my BM 4K, both in raw and Prores. They are both very sharp cameras, but the C500 brings much more to the table like better color, higher speed, in camera NDs, works with all my Canon glass, EVF for bright sun. no sun spots, almost zero noise, great low light work. This is truly a professional camera. The 7Q+ is a fantastic monitor as well as a recorder. When my brother (who shoots also) saw the quality of the 7Q+ oled monitor, he summed it up in one word...... Wow! So far everything works as advertised. I cant say enough a bout Abel Cine for helping me put it together.

I have been busy completing the build with a Tilta/ redrock rig and should do more shooting soon. And I hope to put up some links.

 

 

[DBounce]

On 6/8/2016 at 1:53 PM, Oliver Daniel said:

The Kinefinity Terra 5k has a global shutter.

I get picked for jobs for what ideas I film with a camera, rather than what I own... so the Terra, on paper, is more than ideal. 

But what about when you don't get picked? 

[Dave Maze]

I'd love to get a C500 in two years when the price comes down even more and 4K recorders are $300. 

[IronFilm]

On 8/15/2016 at 0:29 PM, Flyrod said:

Wow, just wow, such a contrast between an expensive camera and a cheap microphone!

[Javier Rodolfo De Pablos-Vélez]

I actually got a C500 + Oddysey 7Q not that long ago and absolutely love it. Abelcine made me an offer I couldn't refuse and since then haven't looked back. It's a C300 when I need to go light or work on simple HD productions and a 4K RAW monster when I need it to be. The skin tones, recording options, build quality, and ease of use make working with it a wonder. Especially since my previous camera was an A7s. 

I look forward to bringing it with me to Jamaica for a feature and Cambodia for travel shoot.

The only issue I have is that there aren't many people out there who own one so not much of a community. I have no one to bounce ideas with or troubleshoot with :/

If anyone on here owns or is interested in the C500 feel free to message me - would love to share ideas

 

[myJTP]

Could the New Atomos Shogun Inferno match up well with the RAW 4K output of the c500?

https://www.atomos.com/shogun-inferno

or will the Oddysey be better?

 

c500 - $6999
Atomos Shogun Inferno - $1999
Total for 4K60 RAW = $8998 

[K Jonathan Park]

Andrew, I seriously considering to buy C500 after reading your post and saw that you're selling the C500. Can you share a little more reason than need to raise the fund? Should I not buy the C500 then?