Super anamorphic project

[Vladimir]

 I really like to shoot anamorphic and i spend a lot of time doing little researches, which leads me to invention that i want to introduce. I've learn a lot of information from this subforum, so i want to share my idea here. I believe it gonna be a second breath to independent anamorphic solutions.

So I came up with what anamorphic lenses was originally created for: using whole image sensor area with benefits. Back then there was a film and now we have a 16:9 standart for video and to use it properly id suggest a simple technology: stack together two anamorphic lenses and rotate a camera 90 degree. And then applied 4x coefficient to 9:16 sensor area that results in 2,25:1 ratio:

Of course if u shoot 4K RAW loosing some data is'nt a problem: u're still end up with proper resolution, color and details and even have nice possibility to recompose frame horizontally. But for 1080p recording cameras or 8-bit codecs loosing some data from sensor not the case, is'nt it?) So what do we have:

- 4320x1920 (for 1080p) and 8640x3840 (for 4K) de-squeezed interpolated image that can be downscaled to 1920x850(840) with some color and sharpness benefits

- stack of two anamorphic lenses required longer focal (about 150mm for sankor16f/rectimascope48 stack for FF) but with 4x it comes to pretty the same FOV as 85mm/2x on FF. It also requires smaller aperture to get same DOF. So it results in sharper image with same DOF (multiplied by lack of loss resolution in the camera). Of course increased number of glasses results in some lights losses, about 1 stop i think, maybe less.

- one of the nicest feature of my scheme: it kills rolling shutter effect. I develope idea of that anamorphic solution with a7s model in mind, it's a great camera which suffer from well knowed issue: terrible RS. But when you rotate sensor and applied 4x stack of anamorhic you decreased RS effect in the final image by 4 times (since RS effect appears on horizontal which is became vertical). From now on forget about RS)

- and one issue: its getting even harder to look at monitor: now its 4 times squeezed image. Honestly i always like to shoot anamorphic without desqueezing function that gives me some abstraction and somehow another vision of composition and im not suffering much from 4x squeezing to. Its hard to use monitor to nail a focus but easier with viewfinder. Actually i send a letter to atomos with asking for some cooperation here but got no respond (maybe a reason is my broken english, who know : )

Of course stack of two anamorphots is loosing any ability to focus, but it working well with diopters like usual combo of taking lens and ana - just set them all to infinity.

And im asking here for some help. Im already tested my prototype (later im gonna do post about it) with usual diopters and it worked. But to use it properly i need some variable diopters and for now i can afford only SLR Rangefinder, which have not very high perfomance. But since aperture at my taking lens starts with 3,5 it may work. I know here's a guy, Tito, with a lot of anamorphic stuff, i will ask him for test, but maybe anyone have opportunity to try it to?

PS I know my English is bad so i provided some pic for u guys)

[richg101]

fantastic idea.  though I'd suggest starting with a small high quality 2x, then install a 1.5x iscorama on the front.  The problem is that since your taking lens now needs to be longer, the front element is also going to be a lot bigger.  a 150mm f2.8 lens for full frame has a front element way larger than a 85mm/2.  I expect a rather good combo would be a kowa b+h and a isco54.  on full frame you'll need around a 135mm in order to keep field angles low enough  on aps-c an 85mm will be a good match.  

it's funny, I was actually talking to someone a few days ago about using a sensor in portrait and an anamorphic in order for shooting fast moving subjects with less rs issues

  

[Vladimir]

31 minutes ago, richg101 said:

fantastic idea.  though I'd suggest starting with a small high quality 2x, then install a 1.5x iscorama on the front.  The problem is that since your taking lens now needs to be longer, the front element is also going to be a lot bigger.  a 150mm f2.8 lens for full frame has a front element way larger than a 85mm/2.

Its just i really like wide anamorphic frames and 2x/1.5x combo ends up almost in regular 16:9 ratio.

Theres no problem with big front element of taking lens - smaller diameter of ana works like diaphragm.

For FF im using Jupiter37A 135mm/3.5 - wonderfull lens with 12 diaphragm blades its vignetting on infinity but when using a close focus its getting more tele (like 150mm), then i fix a infinity with a shorting a flange distance (needed to mod e-mount adapter for that). For APS-C/s35 u can use some 100mm/2.8 - its perfectly fits with sankor.

I had that idea in mind for like a half-year, just cant afford proper varidiopter, so i decided to share it as it is. And that idea come from shooting vertically still photos to get some MF look.

Later im gonna post my prototype and some other info i get from my experiments. For now im asking someone who had Rangefinder and several ana - pm me and repeat my scheme to get some tests.

[BrooklynDan]

I would love to see what this looks like. Do you get insanely skinny bokeh?

[Vladimir]

28 minutes ago, BrooklynDan said:

I would love to see what this looks like. Do you get insanely skinny bokeh?

Since all i got was focus at infinity and macro with some simple diopter, its hard to judge, but it looks like normal 2x. Id like to see proper footage from system like that myself) really want to see) did u saw an "optical coverage" difference between crop of usual 2x and 4x ?) (i made up that termin just now, dont judge me) i think u got what i mean)

[Brian Caldwell]

15 hours ago, Vladimir said:

 

Vladimir:  Very cool idea, and although it may lead to some very physically long lenses (!!) it should work pretty well.

Richard:  Your suggestion of an Iscorama 54 on the front is a good one since the rear diameter of the front anamorphic section will likely determine how much vignetting there is.  The rear anamorphic section won't be stressed too much since the objective lens will be longer than usual, and will be in a normal location.  Too bad Isco54's don't grow on trees!  Although Vladimir rightfully likes wide aspect ratios I think that a near-16x9 output could be very useful for lots of applications.

[Bioskop.Inc]

16 hours ago, richg101 said:

fantastic idea.  though I'd suggest starting with a small high quality 2x, then install a 1.5x iscorama on the front.  The problem is that since your taking lens now needs to be longer, the front element is also going to be a lot bigger.  a 150mm f2.8 lens for full frame has a front element way larger than a 85mm/2.  I expect a rather good combo would be a kowa b+h and a isco54.  on full frame you'll need around a 135mm in order to keep field angles low enough  on aps-c an 85mm will be a good match.

 

So since I have both of these lenses I might give this a try - so is the idea to flip the camera on its side & then stretch what would have been the vertical (1080), which is now the horizontal?

Not sure if I can fix the camera onto a tripod like this, but can certainly try it handheld - might be a bit of a handful & a little shakey.

Also, the 2.25:1 isn't a standard aspect ratio for anamorphic & so to get it to 2.39:1 or 2.35:1, you'd have to lose a little off the top.

Worth a pop nevertheless.

[Vladimir]

4 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

So since I have both of these lenses I might give this a try - so is the idea to flip the camera on its side & then stretch what would have been the vertical (1080), which is now the horizontal? Not sure if I can fix the camera onto a tripod like this, but can certainly try it handheld - might be a bit of a handful & a little shakey.

since there's a two ana its all about aligning now) u can try, but for proper test need to build some housing, i dont have any machinery skills so i build a housing from bunch of lens hoods and step-up/step-down rings and one clamp to hold sankor inside that housing. Luckily rectima had standard thread on the back and i've used that

4 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

Also, the 2.25:1 isn't a standard aspect ratio for anamorphic & so to get it to 2.39:1 or 2.35:1, you'd have to lose a little off the top.

why not? let it be a new standard ratio) im anyway gonna use it without cropping

Quote

it may lead to some very physically long lenses

yep, with small a7s on a back it feels more like telescope)

[tweak]

Are you the guy who was talking to me about this a while ago? Someone on FB was asking me various questions with this in mind, just can't remember the name.

I actually think a better setup for this could be a Kowa 8-2x with a Kowa Elmo II (or 8z) in front of it. The baby scope has a much smaller front optic so would pair well with a bigger 2x like the 8z. Also with the 8z you could keep the flares the same colours.

I still have a feeling this wont work as well as you think it will, but I will test it out tomorrow when I'm at home if you like. 35 or 50 on GH4 will probably work I think.

[Vladimir]

16 hours ago, tweak said:

Are you the guy who was talking to me about this a while ago? Someone on FB was asking me various questions with this in mind, just can't remember the name.

Im not sure, its easy to clear that - FB accounts have a persons name

16 hours ago, tweak said:

I actually think a better setup for this could be a Kowa 8-2x with a Kowa Elmo II (or 8z) in front of it.

thats why that topic was started - to get more setups and results to share)

16 hours ago, tweak said:

I still have a feeling this wont work as well as you think it will, but I will test it out tomorrow when I'm at home if you like.

im not thinking - i know, already tested it as i state earlier

Here is what my prototype look like:

Jupiter37A / D.O.Industries 16F / Rectimascope48 and housing made of 7 step-up rings, 2 empty filters, 2 lens hoods and one inner filters thread to assemble it altogether

[tweak]

Settle down . 
I remembered that the person in question was also asking me about this in order to shoot regularly and have ultra wide panoramas (could indeed be someone else). My FB account has a lot of messages, it's pretty hard to scroll back through them all to find something. 

I tested it today with the setup I described above. (FD50mm, Kowa 8 2x, Kowa 8z, GH4).

Worked fairly well. Overall I would say -
- More abberations and CA than 1 scope (that's a given).

- Incredibly hard to focus (must focus 3 times unless you have a VD unit).

- Very hard to align all 3 lenses exactly (this now becomes even more important than with 1 adapter and taking lens).

 

It was cool to try it out but for my tastes any gain in resolution or loss of RS doesn't really outweigh the drop in quality and the awkward handling/ excess bulk (GH4 RS doesn't really annoy me that much).

I like messing around with stuff, so cheers for the idea! 

[Vladimir]

8 minutes ago, tweak said:

 

Of course stack of anamorphics need to be calibrated/aligned very well and can be used only with vari-diopters in front to focus. As i can remember my setup dont suffer from CA much (or maybe i'm not so sensitive to it), but seems i need to present some footage)

For a small sensor benefits is to achieve shallower  DOF and wider FOV. 

[tweak]

My setup for you.

FOV is certainly wider, but I can also achieve that same width with 1 anamorphic and a lot less hassle. DOF wasn't noticably better to my eye, but I'm also not really in search of anything shallower than I can already achieve, I usually don't shoot wide open much anyway (close ups often at f4-5.6).

The best part about it was trying to work out how it would look de-squeezed, it's like christmas when you see the end result .

[ken]

If I were you, I would consider IQ at first.  And would think in another way.  Using 1:1 mode and make a lens with 2.2~2.5x can do the job.

For example, using 2x lens front glass with 1.33x rear glass would produce more than 2x ratio.

 

Basically, I think 2x lens would have different combination from different manufacturer design.  so I used 2 different 2x lenses rear and front glasses to get 1.5x lens.  Front lens is a negative lens, horizontal count only.  Rear lens is a positive lens, horizontal count only too.  So I think lens A is front -4 and rear +2, and lens B is front -3 and rear +1.5.  So lens A's rear with B lens front consist of a 1.5x (=2/3).  BTW, 1.33x lens might be about front -2 and rear +1.5.

 

[tweak]

Good idea Ken, I would definitely try that if I wanted a bigger squeeze.

[Vladimir]

Here's screengrab from what i have for rough IQ reference (far from perfect aligning and its 135mm with vignetting). Definitely there is some CA, but i've seen more with just one ana. Ill try add some achromat diopter when get one, maybe that will help.

2 hours ago, ken said:

For example, using 2x lens front glass with 1.33x rear glass would produce more than 2x ratio.

Thank you for info. Here's some other recipe i got while experimenting (trying to get more compact but end up with different result): if u  double the amount of front and rear glasses - ull get a really short 2x ana lens that can allow taking lens wider than 50mm on FF.

[Vladimir]

5 hours ago, ken said:

For example, using 2x lens front glass with 1.33x rear glass would produce more than 2x ratio.

Man, i'm freakin love ya!

I'd never believed that anamorphic glass gonna work simple as diopter, but since u mentioned it, i tried just now and got 2.2:1 (for 3:2 stills) ratio on 1.5m focus with much better IQ and possibilities than previous build. Ive stacked two identical front glass together and just one rear glass. Its dark outside so ill test infinity tomorow, but for now i got 3.25 coef. at 1.5m focus (i think at infinity its gonna be close to 4x). Here's some stills (sorry for a lack of creativity : ) shot on FF with 85/1.4 wide open (diameter of rear ana glass is resolve it). 

[tweak]

I remembered who it was, it was Cosmo that was talking about this, he actually did this already a while back and posted the results on the Anamorphic Shooters FB group.

[Vladimir]

2 hours ago, tweak said:

I remembered who it was, it was Cosmo that was talking about this, he actually did this already a while back and posted the results on the Anamorphic Shooters FB group.

i'm amazed that it has no big response - fixing rs issue for some cameras and using whole sensor (avoiding silly 1.33x solutions) is awesome. Also amazed that is so quiet here. Really like to see what he made but i'm tired of scrolling that FB group)

The only thing close to that ive seen was post on some personal blog about using 4x for really wide panoramas. At that time im already have my first prototype and idea of rotated camera was so obvious that im waiting that it comes to publish somewhere day by day)

[tweak]

I think the idea of bigger squeeze is great. I think Cosmo made a 3.75 which would be cool. I don't really like the idea of two scopes in a pathway, but modifying two scopes to build one scope with a bigger squeeze is good I think.