Canon C100 Mark II vs Ursa Mini 4.6K

[Policar]

2 hours ago, Django said:

well i guess i'm fucked cuz i just bought that c100 today! seriously though i can tell you none of my clients have yet required 4K and i've got some pretty damn big clients on the corporate side (i'm not in the US though). and i doubt i'm the only one left delivering 1080p in 2016. in 6 months or a year things could be different. my mate has an A7S2 and has only yet delivered 1080p with it. if i need 4k tomorrow i can borrow or rent whatever 4K camera the budget allows. as for Ursa Mini 4.6K, did you read my previous post? cuz i state quite clearly it's the best IQ for the money. but a rigged up UM 4.6K will run you $7-8K minimum, has a native iso of 800, no ND's etc... and that's without counting the magenta issue plaguing 99% of the units out there. weight wise, i'm sorry but with the EVF, handle and V-mount battery it weighs a ton and would be super impractical for a wedding type event..  i got the C100 for run & gun. stripped down it's friggin tiny yet offers NDs, waveform assist etc..  got it for dirt cheap too so i couldn't pass on the deal (basically the price of a nice lens) at some random camera store that had no clue about video stuff.. they didn't even realise it had dual pix upgrade. i'm not oblivious to the fact i'll probably outgrow it sooner then later, just didn't wanna drop loads at this point on gear i'm not 100% feeling (i.e current Sony / BM products). that's just my opinion though, to each their own...

Same, most of the projects I work on (I don't direct them) are six figure budgets and no one has requested 4k. I own the same camera and absolutely love it, but if you have really good light and a full crew and a lot of time in post you can definitely get better results on something better, and that's why almost everyone seems to be shooting Alexa lately. But the Canon cinema series are the best thing going for small (fewer than 20 people) crews imo and are (along with the 2.5k black magic, I think) really popular B cameras.

Netflix, YouTube Red, Amazon, etc. do require 4k. But the budgets there are seven figures plus, to be fair, they have the crews. And I know a lot of YouTube Red is shot on Alexa, so they must accept upscale. So some clients will require it, but right now it's mostly narrative web content for which you need 4k, which I feel few here are working on. 

Anyhow, I have no idea. Try both cameras out in a controlled environment then on set and then decide. They seem so wildly different that I think you need to define your criteria first. I usually end up buying and selling cameras until I find one that works for me, which is more expensive in the long run than renting, but it definitely results in you ending up with something you like unless you run out of money first.

[Kino]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 8:33 AM, DaveAltizer said:

In the US of A I have not found a used C500 for under $7-8k. I've actually been watching for the last few months. Idk how you found it for $6k. 

Exactly. The cheapest I've seen it is around $8-9K:

https://www.lensauthority.com/products/canon-eos-c500-ef-camcorder?gclid=CJHT3o37qs0CFdgXgQod_FYDAQ

If you really want a C500, it's best to buy it new for $10K and get the warranty and the Cinema EOS services. There are too many things that can go wrong with a high-end cinema camera. It's a huge investment that you will need to count on over the years.

[User]

1 hour ago, Jafro said:

Its getting harder to choose with so many valid points from everyone ahaha

Here is another valid point you may have not considered... and it's no laughing matter.
November 25, 2016 is the next Buy Nothing Day and I'd seriously consider saving everything you've got until that date and then... buying nothing. And then just start walking. To keep yourself going, imagine them finding you years later in the South Sudan or some other failed state. And if you are lucky, maybe a documentary crew will arrive as you and the current leadership cut in half, cook up and consume the ex chief minister of finance or some other ex minister. Then you can look at the cameraman and his camera... and just start laughing. And in the end, I'll bet you get more leg this way than not. Good luck and keep on yer' mean side.

[Kino]

From what many have suggested here, you can see that the C100 is an ideal documentary and event video camera, but it's not really in the same class as the RAW cinema cameras from Blackmagic. I shoot with the BMPC-4K and am always amazed by what I can get out of the Cinema DNG RAW files in post. It's pretty incredible the DR and colors that you have to work with in Resolve.

As for the UM 4.6k, I would wait until they have solved all the problems. By that point, the Terra 5K footage should be out so you can decide between those two cinema cameras if that is the road you want to go down.

Personally, I cancelled my UM 4.6k order before it shipped since the footage that I was seeing had a few problems, including the motion cadence, color science, highlight clipping (the roll-off is not very smooth), and the absence of the global shutter that was promised. I also feel like I dodged a bullet, since we have reports of dealers going through 3-4 cameras to find a good one without any issues. At the moment, I don't believe they are even shipping the UM 4.6k as they wait to fix the camera.

Now having listed a few things I don't like about some of the UM 4.6k footage I have seen out there, there is no doubt that it can produce astounding or breathtaking results:

 

This would go on my list as some of the most beautiful and "filmic" imagery I have seen from any digital video camera all year.

[Policar]

The black magic 4k has about 10-11 stops of DR, less than the GH4 and any Canon cinema camera and it suffers from fixed pattern noise. It's the only black magic camera with sub par image quality, the others are pretty nice if you don't mind oddities and don't need good low light performance. Exposed well it can look very good, however.

Furthermore, the raw is more flexible in post than AVCHD by far and has a less baked in look. Canon's baked in look has ineed become very associated with "cheap documentary" because they make the best cheap documentary cameras, but my friends produced a movie shot on the C300 that looks very cinematic (Blue Ruin), but it required an expensive grade or the ability to grade carefully and expose well–the movie is also very well shot. Similarly, Red MX footage looks "cheap" unless heavily graded, partially due to poor color, partially due to it being a victim of its own success in the indie world. Black Magic hasn't made as good cameras, so they don't have that problem, but they have some really good image quality in some of their crop it's just the build and reliability that's poor. The 4.6k, if it's even as good a sensor as the 2.5k sensor, should be excellent with caveats that I consider deal-breaking (no AA filter, poor low light) but others won't mind compared with the wealth of image information it offers, more resolution and better DR than the Canon surely.

Do your own tests, though. Your needs will vary. You are making a $5k+ decision, you can afford to rent before you make it. No one here is universally or necessarily right (though a few people are clearly specifically wrong), people's needs just vary.

[Michael Coffee]

11 hours ago, Django said:

well i guess i'm fucked cuz i just bought that c100 today! seriously though i can tell you none of my clients have yet required 4K and i've got some pretty damn big clients on the corporate side (i'm not in the US though). and i doubt i'm the only one left delivering 1080p in 2016. in 6 months or a year things could be different. my mate has an A7S2 and has only yet delivered 1080p with it. if i need 4k tomorrow i can borrow or rent whatever 4K camera the budget allows. as for Ursa Mini 4.6K, did you read my previous post? cuz i state quite clearly it's the best IQ for the money. but a rigged up UM 4.6K will run you $7-8K minimum, has a native iso of 800, no ND's etc... and that's without counting the magenta issue plaguing 99% of the units out there. weight wise, i'm sorry but with the EVF, handle and V-mount battery it weighs a ton and would be super impractical for a wedding type event..  i got the C100 for run & gun. stripped down it's friggin tiny yet offers NDs, waveform assist etc..  got it for dirt cheap too so i couldn't pass on the deal (basically the price of a nice lens) at some random camera store that had no clue about video stuff.. they didn't even realise it had dual pix upgrade. i'm not oblivious to the fact i'll probably outgrow it sooner then later, just didn't wanna drop loads at this point on gear i'm not 100% feeling (i.e current Sony / BM products). that's just my opinion though, to each their own...

I'm sure you won't regret it... you could probably bang nails into a wall with that thing and it would keep working.. sounds like you got a great deal too! Well done:)

 

[Kino]

The Blackmagic 4K sensor has a global shutter and a resulting motion cadence that is very filmic in my opinion. It's a very unique quality to have in such a cheap camera, as it cost me $2500 brand new (and comes with a full version of Resolve, which is a $1000 added value). My unit also has no FPN that I've noticed after shooting ISO 800 in pitch black, but I'm aware that others have had nasty FPN problems. Regardless of the presence or absence of FPN, it is not a low-light camera as the ISO range and sensitivity are lower than any DSLR.

Now Version 2 of the 4K sensor in the UM 4K has solved the black sun problem, but quality control and FPN issues persist. BMD has the worst quality control of any camera manufacturer as is well established by now (their post-production products on the other hand are much better).

As for dynamic range, all I can say is that the Cinema DNG files are a goldmine of highlight and shadow recovery like you wouldn't believe. Whatever DR you start with, I would say you could get another 2-3 stops by grading the BMPC-4K's RAW files in Resolve. I don't shoot with the GH4 or V-Log so I'm not sure how it would compare really. You would have to put them side-by-side in Resolve to get a good idea of the usable DR.

Finally, the lack of an anti-aliasing filter on the BMD cameras is a double edged sword: on the one hand, it means greater resolving power; on the other, you will get some aliasing and moiré (which is pretty minimal in my experience).

RED by contrast employs very aggressive AA in their OLPFs that leads to a loss of fine detail, but gives the image a softer and more filmic appearance straight out of the camera. When I compare footage from Raven and Scarlet-W with BMPC-4K files, I see more resolution in the BMPC-4K than the Raven at 4.5K. The Scarlet-W is much better than the Raven since it shoots at 5K, yet still very close to the BMPC-4K. Of course, this is to say nothing of Raven's superior color science, its built-in IR filtration, its modularity and portability, its more efficient R3D codec, and its ability to shoot 4K in higher frame rates than the Ursa Mini cameras. If you have the money, by all means forget BMD and go with RED.

[Django]

I've shot with all the BM's, my favorites being the original BMCC with speedbooster + Nikkor glass and the latest UM 4.6K.

BMPC4K/UM4K sit somewhere in between, they're capable of great imagery sure but only 10-11 stops and 400 ISO native really limits their use imo. 

I'm on Day 2 with the C100, honeymoon phase so probably not too objective but what's for sure is it's so sweet ergonomically. After years of DSLR film making, which has always felt awkward, its so good to have such a form factor and dedicated buttons for peaking, zebras, waveform, picture profiles etc.. can't wait to stick some sick cine glass and see what this sucker is capable of.. let's not forget glass and grade is half the equation, here is some filmic footage of the "cheap" "rubbish" C100:

 

[hmcindie]

7 hours ago, Policar said:

but my friends produced a movie shot on the C300 that looks very cinematic (Blue Ruin), but it required an expensive grade...

Mmm... Every film requires an expensive/extensive grade, doesn't matter what camera is used.

[HelsinkiZim]

For an 8 000 budget, have you thought about getting a selection of cameras for different scenarios like the BM Cinema Camera (shorts, commercials) + BM Micro Cinema Camera (run and gun b-cam to 2.5K, gimbal, etc) + A7S2 (events, for low light and 4K if needed)?

You would be covered for a lot of different scenarios. What do people think about this strategy?

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

7 hours ago, hmcindie said:

Mmm... Every film requires an expensive/extensive grade, doesn't matter what camera is used.

Some cameras make it Much easier than others to produce a nicer image. That's the point we're discussing here rather than ''if it can produce a good image under an expert's hand''

[Policar]

8 hours ago, hmcindie said:

Mmm... Every film requires an expensive/extensive grade, doesn't matter what camera is used.

I don't think ever C300 owner on here is paying $1200/hr to get their footage properly graded. They were only able to afford the grade after getting into Cannes and Sundance. But yeah, it's all what you make of it. I think the colors out of camera look nice, anyway, but they are associated with a sort of corporate video look.

Just because you slap a garish LUT on something doesn't make it "cinematic" either. It's just another version of different. 

[independent]

It's actually pretty simple.

Do you need autofocus? Then C100 II or 1DX II.

Do you need the 4K and much better codec(s)? URSA mini 4.6k. 

They're actually very different cameras, so just go with what you need or want. Keep it simple.

 

[independent]

I like RED but I wouldn't automatically think it's an upgrade from Blackmagic. I don't know about the new sensors, but my Scarlet was a lot worse than the BMCC in low light. Not even close - the was much better s/n from the Blackmagic, and the actual noise pattern was very organic on the blackmagic, not the Red. I'm sure you could have cleaned it up a bit in post, but the RED isn't something you can get away with underexposing at all. Again, maybe the new sensors are different, but I bailed out of that RED ecosystem full of expensive propriety support gear. 

I'm not surprised that Blackmagic is having some issues - RED did too. There's actually a much easier way for Blackmagic to exercise better quality control, service, and reliability, etc. It's price. They have been the cheapest (and have been) for their market segments, and the best image quality per price ratio, and in fact have disrupted the industry in some ways because the competition is lowering prices and offering similar products. 

Blackmagic has been trying to offer pro-level gear at consumer prices. Their game is pushing resolve and post-production products, not protecting lines of cameras.  

I'll say this, it's a lot more realistic to expect Blackmagic to fix some of their issues than Sony or Canon to offer cinema features in their consumer cameras. 

 

[DidierM4E]

Hi there :-) I'v read all your messages, and I think the C100 definitely better fits with me needs. Autofocus, SD Storage, and quick editing beats the Ursa. My only concern is 4k and no 120p slowmo :/ I know that 4k is not mandatory now, but in 2/3 years?

(I have a big tech website, and we do product reviews, interview, etc.)

I just have a question : do you think canon will show a C100 mark iii this year? (ie : with 4k, 120 slowmo and maybe other features...)

It would be a big mess to buy it now and having this in 3 months (at photokina for instance). But in any case, I'm pretty sure a mark iii would be 5000$ at least...

Difficult choice :/