1080 vs. 4K: What is REALLY necessary?

[kidzrevil]

@dbp @mercer if they upgraded the gh2 sensor & removed the aa filter it would be gold. That plus a magnesium body they could get rid of the 4K idc. Supersampled 1080 from a 12-16 mp sensor would be incredible

[mercer]

@kidzrevil the LX100 has some cool mojo. Seb Farges even has some anamorphic videos with it. 

You're right though. I don't understand why they don't release a $1200 1080p G85 with a lot of the features of the GH5 like 10bit, shutter angle, waveforms, etc... just in 1080p. Hell I'd even take their old mjpeg back. I had an FX150 back in the day and I loved the 720p in mjpeg. I really liked their all-i 200mbps 1080p on the FZ2500 as well, I just don't want to pay 2 grand for it on the GH5 when it will never replace my 5D3 with ML Raw. 

[PannySVHS]

 

 

I think these GH1 and GH2 pioneers put a lot of art and craft into the creation of every frame.

Like going by Tony Zhous motto "every frame a painting", they have been following the route "every frame a stills photograph".

Check out Michael Mills´s GH2 pieces and vignettes of art. Quality ratio of GH2 and GH1 and 5DII on vimeo is very high.

 

 

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

 

 

I think these GH1 and GH2 pioneers put a lot of art and craft into the creation of every frame.

Like going by Tony Zhous motto "every frame a painting", they have been following the route "every frame a stills photograph".

Check out Michael Mills´s GH2 pieces and vignettes of art. Quality ratio of GH2 and GH1 and 5DII on vimeo is very high.

 

That reply could be its own post. Maybe these newer cameras just need some catching up to do and in 5 years I'll be saying why do the videos from the GH4/GH5 look so much better than the videos from the GH8/GH9...

I don't think so but maybe. There was definitely some mojo with those sensors and hacks and so much time worked to figure out the best settings and configurations. 

[PannySVHS]

 

Holy cow, rewatching the Concrete Island piece from Michael Mills. At 36 seconds- epic shot. Movement within the frame, framing, geometry, light, location. Perfect! And how generous these afficiandos have been on background info, like on this one:

Olympus 17mm F1.8 coupled with the AG-LA7200 anamorphic adapter.
Camera: GH2 (1080p24, Dynamic B&W Film Mode)
Additional filters: Black Pro-Mist 1/4, Red 1 (25)

Looking epic, this epic GH2. Check out Andrew Reids GH2 stuff, no ugly muddy LUTs, just nice study of composition, light and movement and lens choice.

[User]

5 hours ago, mercer said:

I don't understand why they don't release a $1200 1080p G85 with a lot of the features of the GH5 like 10bit, shutter angle, waveforms, etc...

I realise that this is largely a forum where folks discuss/ compare cameras (and I absolutely appreciate this - especially the folks we have here), but sometimes I think that as part of the registration process it should be mandatory for new arrivals to tick a box saying that they understand that there are inherant hardware/ software limitations tied to price points and era (yuga) of development. And more to the point, that it is very often not in the interest of camera companies to give their customers everything they want, even if they could.

And if, they did somehow release the dreams 1080 camera now - for a steal, it would impact their 4k sales. So why would they? This seems fairly obvious. Na?

Unless it's about beating that dead horse some more.

[mercer]

5 hours ago, User said:

I realise that this is largely a forum where folks discuss/ compare cameras (and I absolutely appreciate this - especially the folks we have here), but sometimes I think that as part of the registration process it should be mandatory for new arrivals to tick a box saying that they understand that there are inherant hardware/ software limitations tied to price points and era (yuga) of development. And more to the point, that it is very often not in the interest of camera companies to give their customers everything they want, even if they could.

And if, they did somehow release the dreams 1080 camera now - for a steal, it would impact their 4k sales. So why would they? This seems fairly obvious. Na?

Unless it's about beating that dead horse some more.

Yeah, I get the mentality behind why Panasonic wouldn't release such a camera, however I doubt hardware/software limitations are that reason. So that leaves that Panasonic believes they would lose GH5 sales... but would they really?

Most people, even most of the high end enthusiasts and low level pros, on this site, will spend the extra cash for the 10bit 4K, but I would assume there is enough of the market that will not. I'd happily spend +/- $1200 for quality 1080p, up to 60p, in 10bit, but I won't spend the extra $800 for the GH5. At that point I may as well save up a little more cash and get a 1DC or wait to see what Sony does with full frame.

Panasonic disrupted the entire market by offering 10bit 4K, with all of these features, at a 2000 dollar price point. Now obviously they didn't do that out of the kindness of their hearts, they did it to have a competing, in camera, Log profile that didn't suffer from horrific artifacts. It was either no Log, really bad Log, or a 10bit codec... they chose the latter.

Since Panasonic decided to offer so much for so little with the GH5, I don't think it is that unreasonable to WISH they offered higher quality 1080p at a cheaper price point.

Obviously Panasonic went all in with 4K to help sell their 4K TVs, especially since they don't sell one interchangeable camera that doesn't have 4K. But they have 3-4 cameras in their line up between $500 and $1000 with questionable 1080p and okay 4K. After $1000, there is a huge market gap before the GH5. How should they fill that gap? Since it's unlikely they'll ever offer a 1080p only camera at this point, the next logical step would be to combine the 100mbps 8bit 4K from the G85 with the 10bit all-i 200mbps 1080p from the GH5.

As far as beating a dead horse... every other thread in this forum beats a dead horse, so I don't believe discussing a hypothetical 1080p camera in a 4K vs 1080p discussion is all that ridiculous. 

[jonpais]

42 minutes ago, mercer said:

Yeah, I get the mentality behind why Panasonic wouldn't release such a camera, however I doubt hardware/software limitations are that reason. So that leaves that Panasonic believes they would lose GH5 sales... but would they really?

Most people, even most of the high end enthusiasts and low level pros, on this site, will spend the extra cash for the 10bit 4K, but I would assume there is enough of the market that will not. I'd happily spend +/- $1200 for quality 1080p, up to 60p, in 10bit, but I won't spend the extra $800 for the GH5. At that point I may as well save up a little more cash and get a 1DC or wait to see what Sony does with full frame.

Panasonic disrupted the entire market by offering 10bit 4K, with all of these features, at a 2000 dollar price point. Now obviously they didn't do that out of the kindness of their hearts, they did it to have a competing, in camera, Log profile that didn't suffer from horrific artifacts. It was either no Log, really bad Log, or a 10bit codec... they chose the latter.

Since Panasonic decided to offer so much for so little with the GH5, I don't think it is that unreasonable to WISH they offered higher quality 1080p at a cheaper price point.

Obviously Panasonic went all in with 4K to help sell their 4K TVs, especially since they don't sell one interchangeable camera that doesn't have 4K. But they have 3-4 cameras in their line up between $500 and $1000 with questionable 1080p and okay 4K. After $1000, there is a huge market gap before the GH5. How should they fill that gap? Since it's unlikely they'll ever offer a 1080p only camera at this point, the next logical step would be to combine the 100mbps 8bit 4K from the G85 with the 10bit all-i 200mbps 1080p from the GH5.

As far as beating a dead horse... every other thread in this forum beats a dead horse, so I don't believe discussing a hypothetical 1080p camera in a 4K vs 1080p discussion is all that ridiculous. 

My only reservation at this point is YT. When I uploaded my test a few days ago of the Blackmagic Video Assist 4:2:2 ProRes 1080p files, the compression artifacts were just plain awful. Then, I went ahead and uploaded the finished video to YT, expecting the worst, and miraculously, it looked 'fine'  (my favorite ambiguous word now!), and the highest resolution offered was now 1440p. If only I could be certain the YT would always process my 1080p clips at the highest possible quality (aside from corporate accounts or whatever, I researched this, but wasn't able to obtain any information), I love working with the ProRes files from BM.

Edit: If I wasn't so damned lazy, I'd like to do a comparison between the GM1 and the BMD Video Assist ProRes 1080p from the G85. Only problem for me is, the GM1 doesn't offer Cinelike D...

[mercer]

24 minutes ago, jonpais said:

My only reservation at this point is YT. When I uploaded my test a few days ago of the Blackmagic Video Assist 4:2:2 ProRes 1080p files, the compression artifacts were just plain awful. Then, I went ahead and uploaded the finished video to YT, expecting the worst, and miraculously, it looked 'fine'  (my favorite ambiguous word now!), and the highest resolution offered was now 1440p. If only I could be certain the YT would always process my 1080p clips at the highest possible quality (aside from corporate accounts or whatever, I researched this, but wasn't able to obtain any information), I love working with the ProRes files from BM.

Edit: If I wasn't so damned lazy, I'd like to do a comparison between the GM1 and the BMD Video Assist ProRes 1080p from the G85. Only problem for me is, the GM1 doesn't offer Cinelike D...

I tried liking that comment Jon, but I'm all out for the day. The YT question makes sense. I never uploaded anything to YT and always upload a ProRes version of my videos to Vimeo. 

If you like those ProRes files from the Video Assist, you should pick up a Micro, the files are crazy good. You could give Raw a shot too... you may just like it.

You know, I remember reading that the GM1's 1080p was pretty good and Jase's videos were definitely proof of that. I'd love to see that comparison if you get the chance!

[jonpais]

1 minute ago, mercer said:

I tried liking that comment Jon, but I'm all out for the day. The YT question makes sense. I never uploaded anything to YT and always upload a ProRes version of my videos to Vimeo. 

If you like those ProRes files from the Video Assist, you should pick up a Micro, the files are crazy good. You could give Raw a shot too... you may just like it.

You know, I remember reading that the GM1's 1080p was pretty good and Jase's videos were definitely proof of that. I'd love to see that comparison if you get the chance!

I'm scared of RAW because of the file sizes and the workflow. Plus, I'm no good at color correction, and I'm afraid it would be a disaster.

[mercer]

8 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I'm scared of RAW because of the file sizes and the workflow. Plus, I'm no good at color correction, and I'm afraid it would be a disaster.

Ehh... half the fun is trial and error with color, anyway. If you're worried about the file sizes, you can shoot in ProRes. Plus, we'll never have to argue about ETTR again. ?

Btw, how solid does the micro HDMI connection feel when attached to an external recorder? I may eventually buy another FZ2500 and it outputs 10bit 1080p, so I may give a Ninja Star a try. 

Also does the BM Video Assist record the ProRes as is from camera or does it use their own BM Film Log?

[jonpais]

9 minutes ago, mercer said:

Ehh... half the fun is trial and error with color, anyway. If you're worried about the file sizes, you can shoot in ProRes. Plus, we'll never have to argue about ETTR again. ?

Btw, how solid does the micro HDMI connection feel when attached to an external recorder? I may eventually buy another FZ2500 and it outputs 10bit 1080p, so I may give a Ninja Star a try. 

Also does the BM Video Assist record the ProRes as is from camera or does it use their own BM Film Log?

 I'm using a 'ribbon' HDMI cable that's about as thin as a sheet of paper, and with the clamp on my Tuba PA-1 cage, I can't see it ever being an issue. The connection is solid, snug as all heck. I'm not sure I know what BM Film Log is.  

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, jonpais said:

 I'm using a 'ribbon' HDMI cable that's about as thin as a sheet of paper, and with the clamp on my Tuba PA-1 cage, I can't see it ever being an issue. The connection is solid, snug as all heck. I'm not sure I know what BM Film Log is.  

BM Film Log is just the Log Profile in BlackMagic cameras. I assume it just records what the G85 is set to in camera, especially since your LUT seems to react to CineLikeD just as it would with straight from the camera files.

[dbp]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

I'm scared of RAW because of the file sizes and the workflow. Plus, I'm no good at color correction, and I'm afraid it would be a disaster.

Honestly there's this weird myth that you need to be a grading expert to bother with raw. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's quite easy to get a standard realistic look with raw files. The only difference is now you have tons of room to adjust the exposure/highlights/shadows. It *is* wonderful if you want to get into to heavy grading, but you certainly don't have to.

raw, at least with the blackmagic pocket and micro, is a really easy workflow. I think you'd grow quite fond of working with those files.  

 

[mat33]

As an enthusiast, I have found it very easy to be distracted with the technical side of filmmaking, 4K cameras included, and not spend as much effort on the basics like composition, lighting, story etc as I should. Maybe there should be an EosHD back to the future GH2 challenge™: only a hacked GH2, 17.5, 25, 42.5mm voigtlander (or equivalent) and a tripod for a year, no reading camera reviews, no LUTs allowed, with monthly online weigh-ins with fellow filmmakers for critical feedback. Would be interesting to see what you were producing at the end of the year.

[mercer]

3 hours ago, mat33 said:

As an enthusiast, I have found it very easy to be distracted with the technical side of filmmaking, 4K cameras included, and not spend as much effort on the basics like composition, lighting, story etc as I should. Maybe there should be an EosHD back to the future GH2 challenge™: only a hacked GH2, 17.5, 25, 42.5mm voigtlander (or equivalent) and a tripod for a year, no reading camera reviews, no LUTs allowed, with monthly online weigh-ins with fellow filmmakers for critical feedback. Would be interesting to see what you were producing at the end of the year.

Interesting idea... speaking of back to the future and 4K vs. 1080p, how about a little love for 720p? Here's a Seb Farges video from years ago with a hacked GH1 shooting 720p mjpeg...

I do like your idea though, even a 30 day challenge, to start, could be exciting. A hacked GH1/GH2, one prime lens and a 3-5 minute short?

To be on the nose, it can be called Hack to the Future Film Challenge. ?

[User]

12 hours ago, mercer said:

Yeah, I get the mentality behind why Panasonic wouldn't release such a camera, however I doubt hardware/software limitations are that reason.

I see your point.

My comment was more towards the general idea of that the 'solution' to the imitations we despise are often constrained by business strategies.

Moreover, and though I'm no expert, with Steve Yedlin's (and others) revelations on the pixel war etc, it's clear that a decent 1080 camera in the right hands can and will curtail sales in manufactures 'new' markets. Not that your proposed $1200 1080p G85 would actually do that. But still.

Just imagine though, as with the seeming end of this 1080 run... that at the end of the 4k run... they never give us the ground breaking do it all 4k camera they truly could have either.

We understand that camera manufactures represent a huge conglomerate with an agenda that suits their needs. Continually debating and pining for what we think they should give us takes away from getting out there and just using the shit... and this is where we need to be.

Stand up and walk over to the window... there is a whole world of possibilities out there

[mercer]

2 hours ago, User said:

I see your point.

My comment was more towards the general idea of that the 'solution' to the imitations we despise are often constrained by business strategies.

Moreover, and though I'm no expert, with Steve Yedlin's (and others) revelations on the pixel war etc, it's clear that a decent 1080 camera in the right hands can and will curtail sales in manufactures 'new' markets. Not that your proposed $1200 1080p G85 would actually do that. But still.

Just imagine though, as with the seeming end of this 1080 run... that at the end of the 4k run... they never give us the ground breaking do it all 4k camera they truly could have either.

We understand that camera manufactures represent a huge conglomerate with an agenda that suits their needs. Continually debating and pining for what we think they should give us takes away from getting out there and just using the shit... and this is where we need to be.

Stand up and walk over to the window... there is a whole world of possibilities out there

I totally agree. In a weird way, the limitations excite me. I'm even considering a GH1 or GH2 purchase  just so I can be forced to produce something within some confines. In the end none of this matters and some kid is going to make the next best indie film in an iPhone, so shoot with what you have and make the best of it. Now I won't sell my 5D3, but I do like the challenge of shooting something with a 6-7 year old camera.

[User]

4 minutes ago, mercer said:

I totally agree. In a weird way, the limitations excite me. I'm even considering a GH1 or GH2 purchase  just so I can be forced to produce something within some confines. In the end none of this matters and some kid is going to make the next best indie film in an iPhone, so shoot with what you have and make the best of it. Now I won't sell my 5D3, but I do like the challenge of shooting something with a 6-7 year old camera.

With 3976 posts, I'm banning you for commenting on this forum until you've got 3 new films under your hat. You can thank me later

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, User said:

With 3976 posts, I'm banning you for commenting on this forum until you've got 3 new films under your hat. You can thank me later

I know... I'm embarrassed by how much free time I spend here and how little I've learned and accomplished in the process. I'm thinking of starting a new profile to save my public humiliation. Has Ebrahim Saadawi been used. ??????