Opinion wanted ! NX1 footage inside

[neosushi]

Hi to all, dear eoshd community,

Prior to a project - doc - I am thinking about changing my gear.

Here is the kind of image I achieve with the NX1 - I am looking for opinion about the texture of the image mostly, and how organic it is, or it isnt', and how you would make it better.

Thanks for all your kind help  

PS : the person in this video is a kind friend who accepted to help  

 

 

 

[Kurtisso]

Stand-in friends are always the best!

Before you go and trade-off all your gear in a big gear swap right before your doc project, it might be worth knowing more about the setup you are currently using. Often times I find myself gear-hunting in complete lust, thinking that the only way to get different looks is different gear when really I could be spending that time trying different looks with the same gear. What are you using lens wise by the way?

Have you tried finding all the "breaking points" of your camera? at what level of underexposure or overexposure does your image fall apart? Sometimes, a touch of underexposure or overexposure can smoothen skin, and give you better skintones. If we're talking organic textures and we start going into grain, slightly underexposing and then bringing shadows/mids back up in post can introduce a slight bit of "digital grain" that depending on your camera could be quite lovely (or terrible HA). I noticed in your test video that a fair amount of the background contained blown highlights, would it be possible to lower exposure and still have the latitude to raise the underexposed areas? One of the things that film does best, is that it handles dynamic range so much better than digital. With portraits and bright highlights on a sharp, contrasty digital sensor, diffusion (like black pro-mist, stockings...) can help too with creating more of an organic feel. Organic might be a bit of an ambiguous term, but if you are looking to emulate the look more of shooting with film, there might be more of a descriptive criteria there like grain, dynamic range, highlight rolloff, motion cadence etc...

[neosushi]

Thanks so much Kurtisso for this great contribution  

The setup I used is the Samsung NX1 (GAMMA DR, Contrast -3, Sharpness -10), and the 16_50S (here probably @ f.2.8). In post I introduced some grain, contrast etc.

My next project is a 3 weeks doc about a young girl suffering from autism.

I have been looking at different images, liking the RED image, Kinefinity - Kinemax feel, but I just can't let go of my NX1 (it's so fast, light, battery life is amazing, etc.). I find myself stuck between finding the perfect camera for the image, and the perfect camera "size/handling" for this project. NX1 doesn't have the best dynamic range, but I like how sharp it can be for a project based on "faces" and really get all the details out of my subjects.  But sometimes, I don't know, it feels very digital. 

I am still looking for the "breaking point" of my camera : I try to protect highlights as well as I can, but I don't like the skin tones on this camera when they're too underexpose. So I'm a little bit stuck  

I agree also that "organic" can be tricky. To me organic would be "filmlike". I think that sometimes the NX1 can look "digital-ish". Or maybe it's the way I use it that is not great. 

 

Here is a better compressed version : 

 

And another video : 

 

[Geoff CB]

Speaking as someone who has switched from a NX1 to an A7r 2.

Don't switch systems right before shooting something.

The NX1 handles far differently than other cameras and it does get great results in interview situations. Plus that codec is helpful if you can edit it natively because with a RED/Blackmagic your going to be dealing with way bigger file sizes.

Am I saying you shouldn't switch? No, I'm just saying I would wait until after this interview project to do so.

[NX1user]

Have you installed either of the bitrate hacks for the NX1? You can do a lot with the footage in post because of the high bitrate. Check out:

https://vimeo.com/kidzrevil

He's got a ton of higher bitrate NX1 footage posted. He uses filmconvert which gets rid of that digital look you're talking about. He posts a lot on this forum.

I just got film convert myself and it really helps make the NX1 image look more pleasing. (nothing I can share yet though).

 

[neosushi]

4 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

Speaking as someone who has switched from a NX1 to an A7r 2.

Don't switch systems right before shooting something.

The NX1 handles far differently than other cameras and it does get great results in interview situations. Plus that codec is helpful if you can edit it natively because with a RED/Blackmagic your going to be dealing with way bigger file sizes.

Am I saying you shouldn't switch? No, I'm just saying I would wait until after this interview project to do so.

Thanks for your interesting comment ! Actually I already shot a lot with the NX1 - mostly urban video and interviews. No serious doc / fiction. I start shooting in a month and I need a very organic solution for the shooting - but I'm not switching until I'm convinced I cannot get the look that I want with the NX1  

1 hour ago, NX1user said:

Have you installed either of the bitrate hacks for the NX1? You can do a lot with the footage in post because of the high bitrate. Check out:

https://vimeo.com/kidzrevil

He's got a ton of higher bitrate NX1 footage posted. He uses filmconvert which gets rid of that digital look you're talking about. He posts a lot on this forum.

I just got film convert myself and it really helps make the NX1 image look more pleasing. (nothing I can share yet though).

 

Thanks ! I have been looking at many different high bitrate videos and I just can't tell the difference between standard and hacked images... Did you see any obvious differences ?? I would love a good example - that would probably motivate me to try the hack  

I use filmconvert sometimes, or the equivalent from Magic Bullet (its called "Film" and has the stock emulation and grain, which I applied on my footage). 

[NX1user]

3 hours ago, neosushi said:

Thanks ! I have been looking at many different high bitrate videos and I just can't tell the difference between standard and hacked images... Did you see any obvious differences ?? I would love a good example - that would probably motivate me to try the hack  

I use filmconvert sometimes, or the equivalent from Magic Bullet (its called "Film" and has the stock emulation and grain, which I applied on my footage). 

I don't have a side-by-side comparison for you. The videos I saw, I didn't see much difference either. But since the hack was free I installed it. I notice much less noise in shadow areas and less or zero compression artifacts in things like movement over asphalt, leaves on trees on a windy day. etc. in other words fine details.

The other thing with the NX1 is, like all cameras, it gives you much better results when you light your subjects properly (even when going for the "natural" light look). The NX1, to my eye, has a huge difference in quality between lit and unlit compared to other cameras where I could compare (C100, AF100). ON your subject under the tree, if you had used a reflector or a light, you'd see big jump in quality.

Try either of the hacks first though, they're free. Try the bitrate around 160 or 180. I, along with others, haven't noticed a jump in quality above 180. You just get bigger files for your computer to choke on. The hack is reliable too, I've filmed 50 or so hours since installing without problems. If you have problem though, you might need faster SD card.

[Kurtisso]

20 hours ago, NX1user said:

ON your subject under the tree, if you had used a reflector or a light, you'd see big jump in quality.

100% agree on the reflector. Bringing down highlight levels in post after they're blown doesn't quite give you the image you're looking for. If only we all had arri alexas!

I find also sometimes it helps to back off the LUTs / film emulation a touch, they tend to saturate and blotch up the image a bit I find. And if you combine that with adding sharpness and contrast, it creates this strange posterizing effect on the out of focus elements. Maybe the bitrate hack would help with this too, with more information there, the less the image falls apart when manipulating it.

[kidzrevil]

Thank you @NX1user ! In my experience the bitrate hack isn't doing anything magical like increasing the quality of the image beyond what we are used to with the NX1. What it does is ups the bitrate to give you better motion cadence (especially at slower shutter speeds where it becomes hard for a compressed codec to predict motion),it eliminates macroblocking in the underexposed areas which become exaggerated when using LUT's & grading.I've shot scenes stopped down with a stock nx1 of water fountains and watch the image totally break apart and become unusable. Not the case with the hack. I use bitrates from 160-180 and it does make a difference but I doubt you would see the difference in locked down shots. I still expose for my subject and prepare to kiss highlights goodbye but I still walk away with a pleasing image @iamoui @Kurtisso

in camera sharpening was at -10 and I increased sharpness in post with adobe premiere lumetri +15