tugela Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 16 hours ago, OliKMIA said: So far it's just rumors but still boring specs. Knowing the Canon trend to cripple its DSLR I'm not very optimistic. First it's only 4k30p, then the huge deal breaker of MJPEG with massive file size and need to transcode. It's like Canon can't ignore 4k anymore but wants us to feel the pain of using it. We can probably also forget about peaking and zebra. LOG i don't know but the 1DX doesn't have it. And is that going to be cropped ? What about aliasing and 4K quality, is that going to be like the usual Canon 1080 that looks like 720 ? Last we have DPAF, that's great but if the image sucks and the video features are non existent, the benefit is very small. Looks like I'm going to keep my current camera and wait for the next Sony or GH line.... Conclusion: after holding it for as long as possible, Canon is finally jumping in the 4K train but in the worst possible way with weird specs that are going to be severely outdated in a few month by the upcoming competition that will to give us 4K60 and 6K30 soon. In 3 or 4 years I can't even imagine how theses ridiculous specs will look like... The reason for the weird codec is that their processors can't handle 4K encoding in hardware without a fan. So they have to compromise to be able to include 4K. The basic problem for Canon is that their processors are technologically way behind compared to what is used in Panasonic/Sony/Samsung cameras. That is the main reason for the laggardly adoption of 4K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliKMIA Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, tugela said: The reason for the weird codec is that their processors can't handle 4K encoding in hardware without a fan. So they have to compromise to be able to include 4K. The basic problem for Canon is that their processors are technologically way behind compared to what is used in Panasonic/Sony/Samsung cameras. That is the main reason for the laggardly adoption of 4K. Ok but it doesn't explain the lack of most common video features such as peaking and zebra. I'm also not very convinced by the processor issue (even though it make sense for the MJPEG thing) because ML has been able to do incredible stuff with the 5D2, a 8 years old camera... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 5 hours ago, DPC said: When you see how badly the Canon XC10 was received when it first came out and how many people like it now, wait and see seems the best response. That said, I'm getting more and more bored looking at camera specs. If I factor in user pleasure, Canon and sony are pretty far down my list compared to Olympus and Panasonic and I'm curious to see what they have up their sleeves. I am not so sure that many people like it. I suspect that sales are not that great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoScoops Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 46 minutes ago, Luke Mason said: Actually it was pretty usable, go take a look at the shootout I did with 1DX II and 1DC. What's the link for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 4 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: I don't know about joke. None of the competitors offer anything like it. I guess the Sony AX100 could be considered a competitor but boy did it underwhelm. Nah, nothing from a GH4 I've ever seen matches ML Raw from a 5D. If you have any examples I would love to see them (and no charts, images ). 4K from a GH4. Sony A7s or other low bitrate shooters doesn't look as good as upscaled HD from a good camera imo. Ive done so many blind tests and people always fail to identify the 4K anyway. even the once here that claim to always see it. But hey, nothing wrong with 4K, I use it all the time. No you have not. Being like Donald Trump and saying something over and over again does not make it true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chris Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Its pretty funny reading all the comments trashing a camera before a second of footage has been released. Judging by what we've seen with the 1dxII, if the image is similar it will be very, very good. If only Ebrahim were here to write a 5,000 word essay on Canon's colors. The 5d3 is over four years old and still a top seller, someone must be using it. 5d2's are even regularly used in broadcast productions. All this gnashing over specs is just measurbating. Dual pixel AF and Canon's native lens selection makes this a very interesting camera for me - and I'm pretty heavily invested in the A7rII and lots of Sony glass. Looking forward to samples and full details of the spec. Does anyone get better scoops than Digicame-Info? They seem to be the ones that all the rumor sites feed off, kudos to them for having insiders everywhere. Mattias Burling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugela Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 33 minutes ago, OliKMIA said: Ok but it doesn't explain the lack of most common video features such as peaking and zebra. I'm also not very convinced by the processor issue (even though it make sense for the MJPEG thing) because ML has been able to do incredible stuff with the 5D2, a 8 years old camera... The video tools are not added to stills cameras because Canon are, well, tools. They are quite capable of doing so, since their consumer camcorders have all that stuff, they just don't want to. As for encoding, hardware encoding will be limited by the thermal envelope of the camera. Canon likely underspecs because they don't want overheating related service returns/complaints, but the specs can go a bit faster before the processor craps out. That is why ML were able to do slightly higher bit rates. As far as 4K is concerned, the latest processors from Canon (Digic DV5/7) have a 4K encoder built in, but using it causes the processor to overheat. The technology used in the processors is apparently not the latest. To control that they have to build a fan in, which is not feasible or desirable in a stills camera. Hence no hardware 4K encoding. Instead they use the inefficient mjpeg approach, which can be done in software with less processor workload, and this is done solely to fit in the thermal envelope. So far the Digic 7 has only been used in a point and shoot (which obviously does not have 4K enabled, even though it is probably capable of doing it). It sounds like the 5D4 will be using the same software approach for 4K, using dual processors (I'm guessing Digic 6). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Mason Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 1 hour ago, TwoScoops said: What's the link for this? TwoScoops 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpfilmz Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 6 hours ago, Eno said: @Mattias Burling, I don't know what Gh4 or Sony cameras you've used, but my "special" Gh4 trashes any 5D mk 3 regarding video quality any day and XC-10 was the biggest joke Canon has ever made. :)) Yeah...no. The GH4 has weak low light abilities without a speedbooster and it still has an un-cinematic 8bit image to it. It's not a Full frame image...it's not even a better stills camera. It does works great from event recordings though however....the image can't compare to a 14bit RAW 5D3 HD image. The XC10 image is way underrated and I suspect the same will be the case with the 5D4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swithdrawn Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 1 hour ago, jpfilmz said: Yeah...no. The GH4 has weak low light abilities without a speedbooster and it still has an un-cinematic 8bit image to it. It's not a Full frame image...it's not even a better stills camera. It does works great from event recordings though however....the image can't compare to a 14bit RAW 5D3 HD image. The XC10 image is way underrated and I suspect the same will be the case with the 5D4. You mention full frame image, but the 5D4 4k crop would be worse than APS-C. I would take the GH4 with speed booster over the 5D4 spec'd as rumored. You'll get around 1.4 crop instead of 1.7 and v-log. DPAF isn't worth all of that sacrifice to me. Of course 5D3 14bit RAW is better... it's better than most anything else... but way too cumbersome, and only 1080p at the end of the day. Eno 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tweak Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Consumer says 1080p is too soft... proceeds to shoot 4K and use old glass to make image more "vintage" (soft). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Mosley Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I'm hoping this will push Nikon to announce the D750S with 4k video, touch screen, and a healthier codec at Photokina. I shoot still and video for weddings primarily so I am switching between modes all day long and have a serious love/hate relationship with Nikon. For a while we used 7Ds with 5Dmii then GH4s along side the nikon D800, but since the d750 it was more practical to keep everything the same. While not a complete brand loyalist, I strongly favor stills quality and dynamic range of the nikon over canon which hasn't really come close recent years. I'm really curious to see how the stills quality compares and if the video is as strong as canon's higher end cameras, it might be time to bring my L lenses out of retirement. wolf33d 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I'd be all over a touchscreen D750S with a 12megapixel sensor and 4K! Wish Nikon brought out another 12megapixel camera like the D300 or D700 Eno 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Django Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 Yeah it's a bit hard for me to go back to the 5D3 on the stills side after being spoiled by the D750's DR.. but ultimately L glass is what brought me back to Canon. I also think Nikon have ways to go on the video side. Now the 5D4 definitely has some sweet features for video. Crop factor on 4K means Super35 mode which isn't that bad. Internal 422 is a nice surprise (even if still 8-bit). DPAF implementation seems the bomb. It's been a game changer for me on the C100 and this takes it further. I'd almost be tempted to drop the C100 but probably no zebra, peaking, waveform or C-log.. So i'm still hesitant what my next camera will be 5D4 or a Sony (A7S2, FS5 or A9). Can't wait for official 5D4 footage.. probably next week upon release! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsilberfarb Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 One of the biggest and frequently overlooked items in video image quality is rolling shutter. This is where Canon could make progress in relation to Sony. I am hopeful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf33d Posted August 17, 2016 Author Share Posted August 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Scott Mosley said: I'm hoping this will push Nikon to announce the D750S with 4k video, touch screen, and a healthier codec at Photokina. I shoot still and video for weddings primarily so I am switching between modes all day long and have a serious love/hate relationship with Nikon. For a while we used 7Ds with 5Dmii then GH4s along side the nikon D800, but since the d750 it was more practical to keep everything the same. While not a complete brand loyalist, I strongly favor stills quality and dynamic range of the nikon over canon which hasn't really come close recent years. I'm really curious to see how the stills quality compares and if the video is as strong as canon's higher end cameras, it might be time to bring my L lenses out of retirement. I see that I am not the only one who wish a good still photo video FF body. I want a Canon 5D mirrorless body with tilt screen (with canon durability and ergonomics) with A7SII video specs (4K, good slowmo, IBIS) but with Canon sensor and color, Nikon D810 DR for stills and canon DPAF. How on earth this is still not available ? Asking this since 3 years here on EOSHD. This will never come by Pana who does M43 which is shit for stills. So we have SonyCaNikon. Canon will never have the specs. Sony well apparently they do redesign their menu and will release a good specced A9 and A99 but at what cost (price and flaws..) and Nikon well they disappointed clearly in 4K but who knows with their first FF mirrorless next year they might surprise us. Scott Mosley 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fsociety Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Quote It's like Canon can't ignore 4k anymore but wants us to feel the pain of using it. Haha. my thought exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chris Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 Is there any confirmation of a 4k crop? I see all this talk about it, but nothing based on actual information. 2 hours ago, swithdrawn said: You mention full frame image, but the 5D4 4k crop would be worse than APS-C. I would take the GH4 with speed booster over the 5D4 spec'd as rumored. You'll get around 1.4 crop instead of 1.7 and v-log. DPAF isn't worth all of that sacrifice to me. Have you used dual pixel? It can pull focus better than you can with a fly by wire lens. The Canon will have better DR as well, and vastly superior stills. AF will be in another league. I'd take the rumored 5d4 over a boosted GH4. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsemiterrific Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 14 hours ago, Mattias Burling said: Another image that I think kills the GH4, Sony Ax etc is the 8-Bit 4:2:2 from the XC10. So if the 5Dmkiv has the same codec but on a large sensor... winner. I couldn't agree more. The XC10 has a gorgeous image---clean, sharp, with lovely colours, IMO, much better than the GH4--never owned the Song Ax. Canon continues to play the Camera god: Canon giveth and Canon taketh away, and no one can make rhyme or reason of it all. I have an XC10 and love using it--what a joy to use. I also have a 1dC--fantastic--many privations I can live with...but can anyone make sense of why they take the AF functions from Canon C-Log? Maddening. I don't mine shooting manual--but sometimes you really are assisted by AF in a pinch. And can anyone make at least a 2.8 zoom with IS? How much better that would make hand held shooting. IS and AF for Canon C-Log: it's a crazy idea, but it may not only work-it would be APPRECIATED! All that said, you're right---all these other cameras look good on paper--but only on paper. I owned an FS5--what a mess of a camera. So exciting in paper--so frustratingly bad in practice. IMO Mattias Burling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassius McGowan Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 3 hours ago, The Chris said: Is there any confirmation of a 4k crop? I see all this talk about it, but nothing based on actual information. Have you used dual pixel? It can pull focus better than you can with a fly by wire lens. The Canon will have better DR as well, and vastly superior stills. AF will be in another league. I'd take the rumored 5d4 over a boosted GH4. YMMV. You've been let down for 10 years from Canon and you're still hanging on like the battered women syndrome. Hoping for something better but you're still getting beat on and left with second hand love. *shakes head* zetty, IronFilm and tugela 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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