DCI 4k 24fps Motion Cadence: I need a hero.

[Mckinise]

I have owned a GH4 for the better part of 2 years.  It has served me well during weddings, corporate events, and many other paid jobs. This October I will be directing a feature length action dramedy and after finally putting this camera through the paces, I don't think I can use it.  The motion cadence in the Gh4's DCI 4k is not smooth at all. 

I believe a a new camera or a rental may be in my future.

What camera(s) on the market today have both DCI 4k and decently smooth motion?

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Canon 1DC. I've always been very impressed with its motion cadence.

Have you tried using a 1/40 shutter speed? Many of us find it smooths out the GH4 motion a bit.

[Policar]

Attach it to a huge, heavy (but balanced) rig.

[Mckinise]

1 hour ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Canon 1DC. I've always been very impressed with its motion cadence.

Have you tried using a 1/40 shutter speed? Many of us find it smooths out the GH4 motion a bit.

Yes, I am currently shooting DCI 4k 24 fps 1/40.   I have liked the little bit of what I have seen from the Canon 1DC.  Also thinking about the Black Magic cameras.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

The only Blackmagic that shoots DCI is the Ursa (Mini) 4.6K. It's a very nice cinema-style camera, but nothing at all like a GH4.

[fuzzynormal]

I've gone to 0° shutter on a lot of my LUMIX footage.  Shot my last doc almost exclusively as such.  I do like the motion blur.

[vaga]

What do you mean 0 degree

[Mattias Burling]

12 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

The only Blackmagic that shoots DCI is the Ursa (Mini) 4.6K. It's a very nice cinema-style camera, but nothing at all like a GH4.

If one is willing to compromise a few pixels the BMPC4K is very close with 4000 x 2160 (DCI is 4096×2160, for Flat (1.85:1) presentation 3996×2160).

And of course one can always compromise the resolution and go D16 with 2048 x 1152 (DCI is scope 2048×858 or flat 1998×1080).

Both cameras have global shutters and very nice motion.

[Phil A]

2 hours ago, vaga said:

What do you mean 0 degree

He meant 360° shutter, e.g. shooting 24p at 1/24, hence his comment on motion blur. Got them swapped in his thoughts.

[Mckinise]

2 hours ago, Mattias Burling said:

If one is willing to compromise a few pixels the BMPC4K is very close with 4000 x 2160 (DCI is 4096×2160, for Flat (1.85:1) presentation 3996×2160).

And of course one can always compromise the resolution and go D16 with 2048 x 1152 (DCI is scope 2048×858 or flat 1998×1080).

Both cameras have global shutters and very nice motion.

4000 x 2160 is actually perfect.  We will be Mastering 4k DCI Flat 1.85:1 for archival and using 2k DCI Flat for DCP production.

[TheRenaissanceMan]

Then the Blackmagic Production Camera or Ursa (Mini) 4K would work perfectly, provided you can light for ISO 400. Some of the best motion cadence on the market, and meets your resolution needs.

[Mckinise]

7 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Then the Blackmagic Production Camera or Ursa (Mini) 4K would work perfectly, provided you can light for ISO 400. Some of the best motion cadence on the market, and meets your resolution needs.

Awesome.  I am looking into getting one for testing.

I was also reading online that an external recorder with a less compressed recording format may help with motion.  Do any of you have experience with this?

[Xavier Plagaro Mussard]

Less compressed than RAW??

[tugela]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 3:52 PM, Mckinise said:

I have owned a GH4 for the better part of 2 years.  It has served me well during weddings, corporate events, and many other paid jobs. This October I will be directing a feature length action dramedy and after finally putting this camera through the paces, I don't think I can use it.  The motion cadence in the Gh4's DCI 4k is not smooth at all. 

I believe a a new camera or a rental may be in my future.

What camera(s) on the market today have both DCI 4k and decently smooth motion?

Does this help?

[Mckinise]

2 hours ago, Xavier Plágaro Mussard said:

Less compressed than RAW??

 

No, I am talking about the GH4 files. 

2 hours ago, tugela said:

Does this help?

And Hippity Hoppity HECK NO!  LOL!

[Jonesy Jones]

The URSA and URSA mini 4K both have the 4000x2160 sensor, the Mini is the same price as the BMPC. The Mini gives you 60P, and the Major 80P. And to my knowledge, the Major has the added benefit of very little noise. I know a lot of people dog on the Major, but you'll find that people who have used it find it very nice to work with, all those screens and particularly the large one. I got to play with one at NAB and I loved it. 

Other than brief hands on at NAB, I have never used an URSA, but I did have the BMPC for a while and I can say that there was definitely something special about the motion.

I still don't really know what motion cadence is, but I can say that the global shutter on the BMPC produced the most cinematic motion that I have ever worked with. 

[Mckinise]

2 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

The URSA and URSA mini 4K both have the 4000x2160 sensor, the Mini is the same price as the BMPC. The Mini gives you 60P, and the Major 80P. And to my knowledge, the Major has the added benefit of very little noise. I know a lot of people dog on the Major, but you'll find that people who have used it find it very nice to work with, all those screens and particularly the large one. I got to play with one at NAB and I loved it. 

Other than brief hands on at NAB, I have never used an URSA, but I did have the BMPC for a while and I can say that there was definitely something special about the motion.

I still don't really know what motion cadence is, but I can say that the global shutter on the BMPC produced the most cinematic motion that I have ever worked with. 

In this context it would be the flow of the movement or motion.  The better the cadence the more natural looking or cinematic the motion is. 

[Jonesy Jones]

7 minutes ago, Mckinise said:

In this context it would be the flow of the movement or motion.  The better the cadence the more natural looking or cinematic the motion is. 

Sure, but how is it measured, or what technical aspect creates better motion cadence? For example, I can immediately tell the difference between 24P and 30P, and we can identify a technical difference between the two. And I can tell the difference between rolling shutter and global shutter, and we can identify a technical difference between the two. But with motion cadence, I couldn't say that I can always spot good or bad cadence, and even if I could, I couldn't tell you from a technical standpoint why one is better than the other. 

Still, I love the motion from the BMPC, and I attribute that to global shutter, though it could also be influenced by magical cadence sprites for all I know. 

[Mckinise]

9 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Sure, but how is it measured, or what technical aspect creates better motion cadence? For example, I can immediately tell the difference between 24P and 30P, and we can identify a technical difference between the two. And I can tell the difference between rolling shutter and global shutter, and we can identify a technical difference between the two. But with motion cadence, I couldn't say that I can always spot good or bad cadence, and even if I could, I couldn't tell you from a technical standpoint why one is better than the other. 

Still, I love the motion from the BMPC, and I attribute that to global shutter, though it could also be influenced by magical cadence sprites for all I know. 

I understand completely.  I think it is more subjective than anything else.  What bothers me probably wouldn't bother the average person.  That said, I am using a 60hz UHD monitor for most of my editing.  It tends to be very unforgiving with 24 fps.

[M Carter]

Do you really, really need 4K for a dramady? I'd say go for the most luscious, natural, emotion-grabbing look you can get. 

I'd see 4K if you had lots of effects work or knew you were going to reframe like crazy. I don't know that it's necessary when you can get a beautiful look from a used BM cinema cam, unless you have some sort of contract specifying a large-frame delivery.