DPReview BANS links to EOSHD!!

[Andrew Reid]

Barney Britton has responded to say he is now consigning all my emails to his spam folder and breaking off communications.

If he won't remove the ban on EOSHD at DPReview, then Amazon will.

And I sent him this:

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Barney

It isn’t a closed matter or a case for the spam folder for me. I will be taking things to Amazon, putting in a complaint with them about the negative impression your forum ban is creating for EOSHD, the censorship of your own users and the damage it has caused to the reputation of my site. No doubt I will be pointing out the history of copyright infringement and slander on your forum to them as well, because I have screenshots of posts that were left up for months before being deleted.

As well as the inconvenience the forum URL ban places on your users (and Amazon’s customers), it means that Google is picking up EOSHD related topics and discussions on your forum, placing these above the original topics on EOSHD and they are all orphaned without a link to the source, damaging the SEO ranking of my site and causing material harm to my income.

The forum ban has been in place for how many years now - 3? 4?

You have over several years wound me up to such an extent that you’ve created a negative impression with other staff at DPReview such as with Scott, Chris and Jordan, as well as your forum users. It’s an absolute disgrace. I didn’t have a problem with anyone else at DPReview apart from you and Shawn. Gannon makes a string of idiotic mistakes, but you’re persistently insidious. 

Think about that next time you have the cheek to ask me to seek to edit my opinions on my own forum.

Andrew

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At least I managed to refrain from calling him a cock-womble this time.

Time to turn my focus to Amazon, after all they are the real boss. It is time for Amazon to put an end to the personal vendettas.

[webrunner5]

I don't even have a link to DPR in my Favorites anymore. I have not even been to it for a Long time. Total waste of time as far as I am concerned. Sort of like visiting a Kindergarten class. I guess for the Photo side it somewhat works, but for Video, not so much, well actually hardly at all..

I do watch the Chis and Jordan videos once in awhile on YouTube, but they seem more geared toward 18 year olds than old turds like me. But that is understandable. At least they are a lot more lighthearted than the stiff upper lip, staunched, dead serious stuff from Barney and friends. Sort of reminds me of going to a funeral.

[tweak]

DPReview? Never heard of it.

[Snowbro]

Canadians, am I right?

[kye]

20 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I do watch the Chis and Jordan videos once in awhile on YouTube, but they seem more geared toward 18 year olds than old turds like me.

I used to, but then they gave the XC10 worst camera of the year, and I realised they don't actually know anything about video at all.  I think they suffer from the common problem that many YouTuber types suffer from, which is knowing everything about video except how it's made by the real pros.

There are kind of three 'professional' worlds for video:

• the one where YouTubers make a living with a DSLR, a laptop, clickbait social algorithm optimisation techniques and brand deals to review DSLRs and laptops
• the one where people film weddings, corporate gigs, and other types of videos for people that pay them
• the one where people make almost all the content for TV and cinema

YT is saturated with the first one, and the level of knowledge between those who only understand the first and those who understand the second is absolutely huge.  There are almost no YT people who understand the third (FilmmakerIQ is a notable exception to this).  Every now and then something comes along that is tailored to the third group but is in the budget of the first couple and they don't know WTF it's for or anything.  Chris and Jordan failed that test spectacularly.

[webrunner5]

I thought the lens fell apart in it or something like that? That would move it down my list also.

[IronFilm]

55 minutes ago, kye said:

I used to, but then they gave the XC10 worst camera of the year

To be fair it is a bit of an odd ugly duckling, which doesn't seem to neatly fit into any one category. (while say a Sony X70 was cheaper, a more traditional form factor with a more clearly defined role in a production. And many many potential buyers of a XC10 could also be happily content with a FZ100/RX10 which is massively massively cheaper, the XC10 was simply in a tough spot in the market with no crystal clear role for it)

I remember even here on EOSHD, that early on there was a lot of negativity about the XC10 and it took a long while until people here warmed up to it and the XC10 somehow acquired the golden shine it has now in some people's opinions. 

Wasn't just on this forum either, *LOTS* of other reviewers and forums were quite critical or even outright negative about the XC10. 

Newsshooter summarized the reaction to the XC10:
 

Quote

When Canon introduced the XC10 they had the opportunity to create just such a camera. A camera with the lineage of the C300 and C100, but shooting 4K at high bitrates in a compact body. Surely this was going to be it? Then came the reviews which were almost universally negative. No XLR audio, a zoom without a constant aperture, a small sensor that isn’t designed to shoot in pitch black conditions and slow autofocus. The Canon XC10 seemed to be a huge letdown for experienced video professionals who wanted to love it.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2015/09/25/canon-xc10-review-a-simple-solution-for-everyday-video-journalism/

"huge letdown"

@Jordan Drake's views on the XC10 was not at all unusual. 

[kye]

53 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

To be fair it is a bit of an odd ugly duckling, which doesn't seem to neatly fit into any one category. (while say a Sony X70 was cheaper, a more traditional form factor with a more clearly defined role in a production. And many many potential buyers of a XC10 could also be happily content with a FZ100/RX10 which is massively massively cheaper, the XC10 was simply in a tough spot in the market with no crystal clear role for it)

I remember even here on EOSHD, that early on there was a lot of negativity about the XC10 and it took a long while until people here warmed up to it and the XC10 somehow acquired the golden shine it has now in some people's opinions. 

Wasn't just on this forum either, *LOTS* of other reviewers and forums were quite critical or even outright negative about the XC10. 

Newsshooter summarized the reaction to the XC10:
 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2015/09/25/canon-xc10-review-a-simple-solution-for-everyday-video-journalism/

"huge letdown"

@Jordan Drake's views on the XC10 was not at all unusual. 

It wasn't perfect, but just because an opinion is popular doesn't make it correct.

The P4K has the same issues.  Lots of people are criticising it for not having huge battery life, for requiring a rig, for not having an articulating screen.  If it cost $8000 these criticisms wouldn't exist because people would view it the same as any other cinema camera, which needs external power, a rig, etc.  But because it's not 5kg and $8k it gets compared to an A7iii.  Same for XC10, which was billed as a C-camera by Canon, and is essentially the GoPro of the feature-film world.

See my comments about most of YT only being aware of the first two worlds and not the third, but extend the logic to the forums too.

[IronFilm]

46 minutes ago, kye said:

It wasn't perfect, but just because an opinion is popular doesn't make it correct.

Yes, but it also means just because Jordan had a popular and widely held opinion, then it doesn't make sense to write him off on that basis. 

 

46 minutes ago, kye said:

The P4K has the same issues.

Quite a different example, the P4K has probably 100x the praise at launch than the Canon XC10 got. And surely 10,000x more people drooling over wanting a BMPCC4K at launch! Meanwhile I'd struggle to remember many if any people who immediately shouted I WANT THIS when the XC10 got announced. 

48 minutes ago, kye said:

Same for XC10, which was billed as a C-camera by Canon, and is essentially the GoPro of the feature-film world.

I really would not call a XC10 the "GoPro of the feature film world", heck the P4K is closer to being a "GoPro of the feature film world" than the XC10 is!

[kye]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, but it also means just because Jordan had a popular and widely held opinion, then it doesn't make sense to write him off on that basis. 

I find that over time we build a database in our heads about who knows what and how reliable they are.  If I was thinking about audio recording for film then I'd count you as being a knowledgeable and reliable source of info, I'd also rate you highly in terms of growing a beard, but I haven't got any idea how knowledgeable or reliable you are with nuclear physics, so if you said some stuff relevant to that then I wouldn't automatically trust you.  If you said some stuff that turned out to not being that reliable, I'd make a mental note of that.

Jordan had an opinion about the XC10 that revealed a deeper lack of understanding that made him a less reliable source of camera info than many others who have not shown that weakness.  Perhaps more troubling still was that it also revealed that he doesn't know when he's overstepping the limits of his knowledge, which means that he's not trustworthy.  I also own an XC10 and a GH5, and have battle tested both, and while some of the XC10 criticisms they made are reasonable, others are completely ridiculous or blown completely out of proportion, so I have the ability to cut through the noise and rumour to what is actually true.

The XC10 thread here was a fascinating read too, because the most vocal critics of the camera had mostly never seen one in real life, and in the early parts of the thread even seen any footage.

There are more alternative sources for camera info on YT than I need that I haven't spotted talking outside the limits of their knowledge, so I unsubbed from their channel and get my info elsewhere.  I'm sure much of the info they share is useful and valid, but if it's info that I don't already know then I can't trust that it's true, which is a difficult position for someone to recover from.

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Quite a different example, the P4K has probably 100x the praise at launch than the Canon XC10 got. And surely 10,000x more people drooling over wanting a BMPCC4K at launch! Meanwhile I'd struggle to remember many if any people who immediately shouted I WANT THIS when the XC10 got announced. 

Don't confuse hype with merit.  The P4K had hype and merit, the XC10 had merit but lacked the hype.  People get religious about cameras and paint them as saints or sinners, when in reality they are all mostly in the middle with various combinations of strengths and weaknesses.

If hype was a great way to choose products then the only cables anyone would own would be spectacularly priced audiophile ones, we'd all drive Ferraris not Corollas, we'd all live in castles or eco yurts not 4x2s, etc.

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I really would not call a XC10 the "GoPro of the feature film world", heck the P4K is closer to being a "GoPro of the feature film world" than the XC10 is!

Imagine you're shooting a higher budget feature / doco / series, you're shooting C-Log on CFast cards with multiple camera units, you need a physically small and cheap camera for high-risk / drone / crash-cam / BTS shots, therefore you reach for a ...... P4K?   Uhh, I don't think so.

That's the main issue here - people shooting C-Log with multiple sources aren't on YouTube or forums, they're out there making content.

[Snowbro]

 

[IronFilm]

50 minutes ago, kye said:

I'd also rate you highly in terms of growing a beard

haha, thank you!
But I'm afraid all the advice I can give is "pick good parents with hairy genes, then do nothing"
 

 

[kaylee]

dpreview has zero jasper pictures so...

also, many of those folks are complete idiots

[IronFilm]

52 minutes ago, kye said:

but I haven't got any idea how knowledgeable or reliable you are with nuclear physics, so if you said some stuff relevant to that then I wouldn't automatically trust you.

I'm probably more trust worthy than your average bear on that topic, my degree from University is a Bachelor of Science which was packed full of physics papers. Sometimes it seems like I took almost everything they had, although I wouldn't say specifically nuclear physics was my strongest suit (although I did a few papers related to that, annoyingly NZ's only particle accelerator was at my university and it got destroyed only the year after I started there! Sigh, missed out on doing any of their experiments there with it), optoelectronics was more my focus in physics. 

However all of that was a long long time ago, I've forgotten now more than I remember!

[Snowbro]

Dpreview forums are the forum version of North Korea

 

[IronFilm]

57 minutes ago, kye said:

Imagine you're shooting a higher budget feature / doco / series, you're shooting C-Log on CFast cards with multiple camera units, you need a physically small and cheap camera for high-risk / drone / crash-cam / BTS shots, therefore you reach for a ...... P4K?   Uhh, I don't think so.

Many of those productions won't be shooting with C300/C700 cameras, and thus then the likes of a P4K would be just fine. Or they'll use a mirrorless/DSLR camera. 
Even C300mk2/C200 shoots will probably more often use a 5Dmk(something) or an EOS R or a C100 than the XC10 as an additional camera. 

I've only once ever seen a XC10 on a shoot, and that was for an adverting campaign shot exclusively with a C300mk2. The XC10 was just come kind of extreme emergency camera (if the C300 completely sh*t its pants on them, which to be fair at one point it almost did....  but a reset solved that) that was owned by the agency (which they used for teeny little social media shots done by a one person crew in house, honestly any of FZ100/X70/RX10/GH5/C100/etc could probably have done the same job for them just as well/badly for them and their limited needs) and stayed in the bag the whole time. 
 

Am not denying that the XC10 has a place, it just seems to be an odd place.... which is tricky to really nail down / market to, and thus we're simply not seeing it out in use a lot. 

[kye]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Many of those productions won't be shooting with C300/C700 cameras, and thus then the likes of a P4K would be just fine. Or they'll use a mirrorless/DSLR camera. 
Even C300mk2/C200 shoots will probably more often use a 5Dmk(something) or an EOS R or a C100 than the XC10 as an additional camera. 

I've only once ever seen a XC10 on a shoot, and that was for an adverting campaign shot exclusively with a C300mk2. The XC10 was just come kind of extreme emergency camera (if the C300 completely sh*t its pants on them, which to be fair at one point it almost did....  but a reset solved that) that was owned by the agency (which they used for teeny little social media shots done by a one person crew in house, honestly any of FZ100/X70/RX10/GH5/C100/etc could probably have done the same job for them just as well/badly for them and their limited needs) and stayed in the bag the whole time. 
 

Am not denying that the XC10 has a place, it just seems to be an odd place.... which is tricky to really nail down / market to, and thus we're simply not seeing it out in use a lot. 

Cinematography Database YT channel spots them in BTS pics every so often, and Filmmaker IQ owns one and they're much closer to the high budget film world than most of the YT camera channels, so that's what I am basing my judgements on.  Plus, you know, that most people who criticise it haven't ever seen one.

I think you're right that it does have a place, my point is that that place isn't very visible from the part of the filmmaking landscape most of us occupy, and just it's hard to know how much commercial content is shot with a GH5, it's hard to know how much commercial content is shot with an XC10 because it's good enough to blend in to stuff shot on other Canon cameras.

Anyway, those DPreview people...  am I right? ???

[anonim]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Anyway, those DPreview people...  am I right? ???

I don't know anything about DPreview, but I must admit that Chris and Jordan look to me as the most polite, measured, unpretentious, but still with touch of nice humor, reviewers on YT that I have patient to watch occasionally. Even their quasi muppetshow mutual friendliness is cute to me - out of aggressively and vulgar shouting "Hey what's up guys" or different kinds of sticky affectation... But I think they are just from recently members of DPreview.

Actually, what I really miss in my infantile imagination is - how to abridge dispersion all around the world of us, members of EOSHD... It'll be so nice that some of us, willing to play and participate, form several geographically-based teams with agreement about competitive goal to make some artistic short movies. Maybe just as in NBA - USA vs other world, or vs UK vs Middle-South Europe vs Scandinavians vs FarEast vs Ozzies&comp etc.

In my dream it would be so cool and pretty picturesque scenery to, say, meet Mercer/webruner duo at battlefield with Kisaha's 4x2 NX1 revolvers or Django's collection of canons...  And I just hope that such idealistic creative duels would not turn out in brutal realistic question that pursues me even in the dream : what camera has most cinematic look?

[newfoundmass]

19 hours ago, kye said:

I used to, but then they gave the XC10 worst camera of the year

It's cool if you liked it but... It had a 1 inch sensor with a f/2.8-5.6 lens for $2500. Saying it was the worst camera of the year might've been overstating it, but given the options that were available at the time for substantially less? Yeah, it was a bit of a dud unless you're a hardcore Canon shooter. 

Only after the incompetence Canon has shown these past couple of years have people warmed up to it. But people had higher expectations and the XC10 fell well beneath most of them.

[Novim]

13 hours ago, kye said:

The XC10 thread here was a fascinating read too, because the most vocal critics of the camera had mostly never seen one in real life, and in the early parts of the thread even seen any footage.

So true. XC10 is a good camera (within its own limits, like any other gear). And when those two clowns (Chris and Jordan) were engaged to make "reviews" for DPR, I stopped to follow the site. (I should have done that earlier, however.)

From @Andrew Reid to them, a clear path of decline. Now DRP is just in business of marketing newest gear.