1.74x - A Crop Odyssey - Canon 5D Mark IV officially announced

[Luke Mason]

5 minutes ago, dhessel said:

Not entirely true. You cannot make an EF to EF speed booster because the booster reduces the crop factor and increases the speed of the lens by shortening the flange focal distance - moving the lens closer to the sensor and refocusing it. Imagine the lens is like a film projector and you are focusing it on a screen that is smaller than the image being projected. If you want to get the whole image on the screen you can move the projector closer to the screen and refocus it, filling the screen and increasing the brighteness of the image at the same time.

It is possible however to make a speed booster that adapts large/medium format lenses to EF but that seems a bit rediculous to boost a medium format lens to get a full frame crop on of a full frame camera

That's exactly what I said, nothing can be attached between an EF mount and an EF lens, otherwise you mess up the image.

[Flynn]

Subversive, I think it better have some of those features on your wishlist if they hope for it to sell well. In the current climate, where it seems like Sony has taken a huge chunk of the GH4's sales and who knows what Olympus is about to offer with the EM1ii, your expectations seem very modest to me.

[MountneerMan]

What the current status of Magic Lantern RAW 14 bit?

Any change they will unlock 4k RAW on the mkIV?

[Andrew Reid]

4K uncompressed RAW to plain old CF card? Doubt it... and it would still be a horrific crop.

Magic Lantern peaked with the 5D Mark III and they have moved on now...

I don't expect them to take much interest in future Canon cameras now they involved in making their OWN camera hardware.

[Flynn]

Had no idea some of the ML people were designing their own hardware. That's very interesting.

[kidzrevil]

Canon reminds me of the friend that we all know could go so far in life if he applies himself but he just refuses to take the necessary steps to do so. Canon has the user base, the resources and the industry know how to be able to generate enough user feedback to give us a suite of super cameras like how Sony has the a7 line. They could've made a separate line of mirrorless cameras and dominated. I have heard the argument before that Canon does this so they don't cripple their C-line but at this point that doesn't make sense...the 5d is one of their high end line of cameras

[Luke Mason]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

4K uncompressed RAW to plain old CF card? Doubt it... and it would still be a horrific crop.

Magic Lantern peaked with the 5D Mark III and they have moved on now...

I don't expect them to take much interest in future Canon cameras now they involved in making their OWN camera hardware.

No they have not "moved on", work is being done on 7D Mark II, once they get their hands on 5D Mark IV, there will be stuff going on as well, just a matter of time.

[theSUBVERSIVE]

15 minutes ago, Flynn said:

Subversive, I think it better have some of those features on your wishlist if they hope for it to sell well. In the current climate, where it seems like Sony has taken a huge chunk of the GH4's sales and who knows what Olympus is about to offer with the EM1ii, your expectations seem very modest to me.

It's not so much about having modest or high expectations, I'm just being realistic about Panasonic and how they are.

What I expect is the minimum Panasonic should do, the second part is what they should do if they actually want to step up their game against Sony. The Wishlist is just something they could do and people would appreciate but I just doubt Panasonic would be bold enough to pull that off, unfortunately.

[Pavel Mašek]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

It is a goth of a camera

And please do not forget about bitrate hack (180Mbps for 4K and 1080p100fps!) and also speedbooster is on the way! 

 

[David Bowgett]

24 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

Canon reminds me of the friend that we all know could go so far in life if he applies himself but he just refuses to take the necessary steps to do so.

I've always thought that the big three in the camera market are like the big three in the console market:

Sony are equivalent to... well, Sony. Not perfect by any means, but overall they're clearly the strongest of the major players, and have made very few serious mis-steps in recent years.

Nikon are equivalent to Microsoft. Definitely the weaker one between them and Sony, but still a strong player overall (thanks to sharing much of the same hardware), and there are even a few things they do better.

Canon are like Nintendo. A lot of the time their decisions are so face-palmingly stupid that you can't help but wonder why on earth anyone ever liked their products. But then, every once in a while they'll produce something really special, something that reminds you how amazing they can be when they put their minds to it... and then follow it with another awful product.

[Tiago Rosa-Rosso]

it's 1.74 or 1.64 crop?

dpreview says one 1.64.

https://***URL removed***/reviews/canon-eos-5d-mark-iv-first-impressions-review

[Glenn Thomas]

For the price of this thing you could buy an RX100 IV, E6300 and GH4. Each of which have flip screens and log profiles.

[Andrew Reid]

I believe 1.64 is overly generous.

Relative to the full frame sensor is is 1.74

My pre-release calculations based on 30MP were right... around 1.7x crop.

It certainly looks like it based on the 8MP hole in the 30MP frame.

A severe crop make no mistake

Don't let the 'explorers of light' sugar coat it by making comparisons to Super 35mm!

7 minutes ago, David Bowgett said:

I've always thought that the big three in the camera market are like the big three in the console market:

Sony are equivalent to... well, Sony. Not perfect by any means, but overall they're clearly the strongest of the major players, and have made very few serious mis-steps in recent years.

Nikon are equivalent to Microsoft. Definitely the weaker one between them and Sony, but still a strong player overall (thanks to sharing much of the same hardware), and there are even a few things they do better.

Canon are like Nintendo. A lot of the time their decisions are so face-palmingly stupid that you can't help but wonder why on earth anyone ever liked their products. But then, every once in a while they'll produce something really special, something that reminds you how amazing they can be when they put their minds to it... and then follow it with another awful product.

Nah Canon are like Sony

Enormous corporate giant plodding along with giant marketing and hype

Sony are like Nikon... A more hardcore focus on non-casual 'gamers'

Nikon are like...... Sega. Obsolete

Panasonic are like Nintendo. Innovative, smaller specs, lower budget but famous nevertheless

[Tiago Rosa-Rosso]

8 or 8.8mp? How far it is from super35?

[Andrew Reid]

It depends on the resolution of the entire sensor.

If you have a Super 35mm sensor of 8MP then you don't need to crop for 4K.

If you have a 30MP full frame sensor you need a massive crop to get that down to 4K!

[Luke Mason]

5 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It depends on the resolution of the entire sensor.

If you have a Super 35mm sensor of 8MP then you don't need to crop for 4K.

If you have a 30MP full frame sensor you need a massive crop to get that down to 4K!

5D Mark IV full frame resolution: 6720x4480, 4K crop resolution: 4096x2160

6720/4096 = ~1.64

[Tiago Rosa-Rosso]

But in the end this massive crop from 30mp to 8mp results more or less in what would be a super35 sensor area or is far from it? Closer to m43 or closer to super 35? I ask this because if you have for example the 18-35 develop for aps-c ( and if this lenses work well with DPAF ). This might be a solution for not such a heavy crop. 

[Andrew Reid]

Hey Luke. enjoyed your posts but I believe the crop is actually measured diagonally not just horizontally?

Vertically it is a 2x crop...

4480/2160 = 2.07x

So average the vertical and horizontal and we meet in the middle... actually the exact maths I can't be too precise about but I guess it is an average of 1.64x and 2.07x? How do you measure the diagonal crop?

2 minutes ago, Tiago Rosa-Rosso said:

But in the end this massive crop from 30mp to 8mp results more or less in what would be a super35 sensor area or is far from it? Closer to m43 or closer to super 35? I ask this because if you have for example the 18-35 develop for aps-c ( and if this lenses work well with DPAF ). This might be a solution for not such a heavy crop. 

18-35mm would be a solution to get 31.32mm to 60mm... Not a very appealing zoom range

To get a 24-70mm is a lot harder

[Luke Mason]

12 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The crop is measured diagonally not just horizontally

4480/2160 = 2.07x

The maths after that I can't be too precise about but I guess it is an average of 1.64x and 2.07x so somewhere in the middle.

It IS measured horizontally. It ALSO works if you measure diagonally, let me do the math for you:

A DCI 17:9 full sensor area would be 6720x3454, using Pythagorean Theorem you can calculate that the diagonal pixel count is ~7597

the diagonal pixel count of a DCI 17:9 4096x2160 crop area is ~4631

7597/4631 = ~1.64

extremely close to Super 35mm FOV.

 

You own a 1DC so you know the 4K crop factor on 1DC is ~1.3, that's 5184/4096 = ~1.26

and the S35 mode on 1DC is 5184/3216 = ~1.6

On 1DX II, the 4K crop is 5472/4096 = ~1.34

Happy?

[Andrew Reid]

If it were measured only horizontally then you could have a weirdly extreme letterbox aspect ratio and call it 1.0x crop if it measured the full width of the sensor, so that can't be how they calculate it surely?

Full sensor area of the 5D Mark IV is 3:2