1.74x - A Crop Odyssey - Canon 5D Mark IV officially announced

[Luke Mason]

Just now, Jn- said:

I've taken the liberty of using this extract from an article in Photography Life, he explains it a lot better than I could ...

I simply replaced sensor dimensions, which would be in millimetres i.e. 24x36 for FF with 4480x6720 and xx x yy for 2160 x 4096.

https://photographylife.com/what-is-crop-factor
"How Crop Factor is Calculated
The math to derive the crop factor is quite simple. Knowing the physical size of the sensor, you first calculate the diagonal using Pythagorean Theorem (a² + b² = c²), then divide the number by the diagonal of the crop sensor."

I personally don't have any problem if it is 1.64, all the better, since i've already ordered it, but using the diagonals of the FF sensor and the diagonal of the 4K crop it's 1.74.

Yes that math only works assuming the aspect ratio is consistent, usually crop sensor is the same aspect ratio as FF sensor, all 3:2.

Video crops differently. 1.64 is actually extremely close to a Super 35mm size, I guess Canon took this into account when designing this 30.4mp sensor.

[myJTP]

9 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:

Hurt only in terms of storage space, MJPEG codec @ 500Mbps and 4:2:2 is actually a very high quality codec, the best codec among DSLRs and the only 422 codec used apart from cinema cameras.

2

Luke... I have to say THANK YOU for posting CLEAR and true statements about the 5Dmk4... It seems EVERYONE is blindly hating on this camera because it doesn't do a FF 4K@120 video, take photos, brush your teeth, comb your hair, and take out your trash. There is never going to be a PERFECT camera let alone one for under $2999.  And if ANYONE thinking a GH5 is going to be a stellar STILLS camera has got to be kidding themselves.  Canon has made no bones about the fact that the 5Dmk4 is a STILLs camera first and foremost with really good basic video features which are MORE than useable in capable hands.  I also find it VERY interesting the people who crap on canon the most never want to show their own demo reel of work.... just my two cents... thanks Luke and keep hope alive!! Let the bashing begin

 

P.S. Im very interesting in see how the Fuji X-T2 does for 4K even though it's a dreaded 1.7 crop I always liked Fuji Colors and its a pretty nice priced option.

[Luke Mason]

3 minutes ago, theSUBVERSIVE said:

Technically speaking yes but nobody do like that, people don't usually go and say it's a Micro4/3 camera with 2.00x crop but the 1080p video is a 2.08x crop. This is just getting lost in technicalities, it doesn't matter.

 

 

haha what? we all "do like that", when talking about video modes that do not use the full sensor area.

M4/3 is always 2x crop (I'm not aware of any camera that do not use full M4/3 area) , 2.08 is just a more accurate number.

[theSUBVERSIVE]

1 minute ago, Jn- said:

I've taken the liberty of using this extract from an article in Photography Life, he explains it a lot better than I could ...

I simply replaced sensor dimensions, which would be in millimetres i.e. 24x36 for FF with 4480x6720 and xx x yy for 2160 x 4096.

https://photographylife.com/what-is-crop-factor
"How Crop Factor is Calculated
The math to derive the crop factor is quite simple. Knowing the physical size of the sensor, you first calculate the diagonal using Pythagorean Theorem (a² + b² = c²), then divide the number by the diagonal of the crop sensor."

I personally don't have any problem if it is 1.64, all the better, since i've already ordered it, but using the diagonals of the FF sensor and the diagonal of the 4K crop it's 1.74.

Technically you can say it's 1.74x crop because the diagonal comparison doesn't care about aspect ratio, but for practical matters it's 1.64x since you will be able to use Canon APS-C EF lenses without worrying about the crop because the width will be equivalent of an APS-C Canon sensor.

In theory any video that takes the same width has a crop, if a FF is 1.00x, then a video would have 1.06x crop since the diagonal of the video (17:9 or 16:9) is smaller than the FF 3:2 sensor, but nobody says that. So If you apply the same 1.06x crop, that's exactly the difference between the technical 1.74x crop and the practical 1.64x crop (1.74:1.64=1.06).

As I said, for practical matters, the 5D MKIV has a Canon APS-C crop for 4K, that's it, you should be able to use APS-C EF lens on it as if you are using a Canon APS-C camera. Then this crop makes more sense and it seems less random, it's basically the same Nikon did with the D5, it offers an APS-C crop, it's just that Nikon's APS-C is 1.5x crop instead of Canon's APS-C which is 1.6x crop.

 

[Bioskop.Inc]

Well, I'm hoping that the Mark3 drops dramatically in price, so I can pick one up for cheap & shoot nice pictures, whilst taking advantage of ML RAW in Full Frame.

4K in 8-bit is a joke, but not as big a joke as using Log with an 8-bit codec.

[theSUBVERSIVE]

8 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:

haha what? we all "do like that", when talking about video modes that do not use the full sensor area.

M4/3 is always 2x crop (I'm not aware of any camera that do not use full M4/3 area) , 2.08 is just a more accurate number.

The GH1 and GH2 used a different 1.86x crop for video because it was a multi-aspect sensor, bigger than the usual Micro4/3 area. The diagonal crop of the sensor is 2.00x (43.3:21.6=2.00) because what matters is the image circle and the video crop that is 2.08x, or 2.1x like you said, but nobody says that video has an extra crop because for practical matters it doesn't matter, the FOV is the same, otherwise even in FF there is a 1.06x crop for video, but who talks about it? Nobody.

This is discussion pointless, if you don't understand that, it's ok.

[Luke Mason]

Just now, theSUBVERSIVE said:

The GH1 and GH2 used a different 1.86x crop for video because it was a multi-aspect sensor, bigger than the usual Micro4/3 area. The diagonal crop of the sensor is 2.00x (43.3:21.6=2.00) because what matters is the image circle and the video crop that is 2.08x, or 2.1x like you said, but nobody says that video has an extra crop because for practical matters it doesn't matter, the FOV is the same, otherwise even in FF there is a 1.06x crop for video, but who talks about it? Nobody.

This is discussion pointless, if you don't understand that, it's ok.

I always calculate crop using horizontal dimension (whether it's mm or pixel count), in the case of a standard M4/3 sensor which is 17.3mm wide, the crop factor is 36/17.3= 2.08x, which we simply say as 2x. Diagonal size is too complex and yields the same results. The 1.06x thing you mentioned is also pointless, not because nobody says that, it's just an incorrect way of calculating.

[Tiago Rosa-Rosso]

Thanks Andrew and Luke and the rest for the insights on the crop.

Anyone know good aps-c ef lenses besides sigma 18 to 35 and 50 to 100? And any knows if this lenses will work with DPAF?

[Luke Mason]

8 minutes ago, Tiago Rosa-Rosso said:

Thanks Andrew and Luke and the rest for the insights on the crop.

Anyone know good aps-c ef lenses besides sigma 18 to 35 and 50 to 100? And any knows if this lenses will work with DPAF?

The sigma ones are the best, and they work perfectly with DPAF.

[fuzzynormal]

I do agree that if you're gonna buy a full frame camera for video, having it do full frame video in all modes would be nice.

But it doesn't, and is that really a big deal?

Are we sad that Canon has decided to not compete in the hybrid segment that they accidentally created all those years ago?  Are we disappointed that Canon's legacy is somehow jepordized?

Above all, how is this camera's reality anything new?  We've known that Canon isn't going to compete against their own cinema line, right?

[myJTP]

1 minute ago, fuzzynormal said:

I do agree that if you're gonna buy a full frame camera for video, having it do full frame video in all modes would be nice.

But it doesn't, and is that really a big deal?

Are we sad that Canon has decided to not compete in the hybrid segment that they accidentally created all those years ago?  Are we disappointed that Canon's legacy is somehow jepordized?

Above all, how is this camera's reality anything new?  We've known that Canon isn't going to compete against their own cinema line, right?

 

BINGO!!!!

[noone]

38 minutes ago, theSUBVERSIVE said:

 

As I said, for practical matters, the 5D MKIV has a Canon APS-C crop for 4K, that's it, you should be able to use APS-C EF lens on it as if you are using a Canon APS-C camera. Then this crop makes more sense and it seems less random, it's basically the same Nikon did with the D5, it offers an APS-C crop, it's just that Nikon's APS-C is 1.5x crop instead of Canon's APS-C which is 1.6x crop.

 

Isn't the issue that many Canon EF-S lenses can not be mounted to FF Canon cameras (not without modification anyway)?       Third party APSC Canon mount lenses can be mounted I think.     Canon APSC lenses can be used in both FF and APSC modes on Sony E mount (and some can be used FF for at lest part of the range without vignetting the cheap 18-55 APSC kit lenses do from about 24mm and up).

[tomekk]

 

11 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

I do agree that if you're gonna buy a full frame camera for video, having it do full frame video in all modes would be nice.

But it doesn't, and is that really a big deal?

Are we sad that Canon has decided to not compete in the hybrid segment that they accidentally created all those years ago?  Are we disappointed that Canon's legacy is somehow jepordized?

Above all, how is this camera's reality anything new?  We've known that Canon isn't going to compete against their own cinema line, right?

Video is one thing in which I understand canon doesn't want to push things but they fail in stills department too. D750 is 2.5x cheaper and is pretty much equal to 5dmk4 (in stills department)! DPRAW might even out canon's AF issues, though ;).

[Zach Ashcraft]

35 minutes ago, tomekk said:

 

Video is one thing in which I understand canon doesn't want to push things but they fail in stills department too. D750 is 2.5x cheaper and is pretty much equal to 5dmk4 (in stills department)! DPRAW might even out canon's AF issues, though ;).

What evidence have you seen that has led you to this conclusion? 

[tomekk]

28 minutes ago, Zach Ashcraft said:

What evidence have you seen that has led you to this conclusion? 

Sensor wise, compare D750 with 1DXmk2. 5Dmk4 will have pretty much the same sensor technology but lower spec (historically speaking that was true for 5dmk3 and 1dx). Check all measurement tabs and draw your own conclusions.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon--EOS-1D-X-Mark-II-versus-Nikon-D750___1071_975

AF wise, people fight back and forth about it so I'd say pretty close. Maybe better in canon due to newer technology but I'm pretty sure nothing groundbreaking and crushing Nikon's AF system. That has never happened and it won't happen now. If 5dmk4's AF system is +- 2x better (2.5x price) to what D750 offers then I'd reconsider because I'm heavily invested in EF lenses. It's unlikely though. 

So that covers most important features for portrait/photojournalism/wedding/travel? If I wanted higher resolution camera I'd go D810.

I'm still going to wait for a couple of months for price drops, proper reviews etc. but not holding my breath. I've been waiting for this camera but not going to overpay for it. It's not a bad camera, though. Just not worth the price for me.

[jonpais]

12 hours ago, MattH said:

Exactly, you could get wide angle with a sigma 8-16 or a tokina 11-16, but then you are still going to have to buy full frame lenses to cover that focal range.  All that money for all that hassle.  Doesn't draw me to it.

But my Tokina was just $400, the Sigma only $800, no more than any other fast u43 glass out there...

edit: my mistake, the Sigma costs just $700.

[bertzie]

Your stills camera isn't a great video camera, my screwdriver makes a shitty hammer. We both got problems.

 

Does Canon have to remove video function all together before people get the friggen point?

[mercer]

7 minutes ago, bertzie said:

Your stills camera isn't a great video camera, my screwdriver makes a shitty hammer. We both got problems.

 

Does Canon have to remove video function all together before people get the friggen point?

This.

"We both got problems." LMAO!!!

[Flynn]

5 hours ago, theSUBVERSIVE said:

It's not so much about having modest or high expectations, I'm just being realistic about Panasonic and how they are.

What I expect is the minimum Panasonic should do, the second part is what they should do if they actually want to step up their game against Sony. The Wishlist is just something they could do and people would appreciate but I just doubt Panasonic would be bold enough to pull that off, unfortunately.

I'm hoping the delay in announcing a replacement, if that rumor is true, is because they're adding some features that will turn heads and take back a bit of the thunder Sony seems to have stolen. 

3 hours ago, Jn- said:

I've taken the liberty of using this extract from an article in Photography Life, he explains it a lot better than I could ...

I simply replaced sensor dimensions, which would be in millimetres i.e. 24x36 for FF with 4480x6720 and xx x yy for 2160 x 4096.

https://photographylife.com/what-is-crop-factor
"How Crop Factor is Calculated
The math to derive the crop factor is quite simple. Knowing the physical size of the sensor, you first calculate the diagonal using Pythagorean Theorem (a² + b² = c²), then divide the number by the diagonal of the crop sensor."

I personally don't have any problem if it is 1.64, all the better, since i've already ordered it, but using the diagonals of the FF sensor and the diagonal of the 4K crop it's 1.74.

News Shooter says the crop is 1.74 in the title of their article.

[myJTP]

5 minutes ago, Flynn said:

I'm hoping the delay in announcing a replacement, if that rumor is true, is because they're adding some features that will turn heads and take back a bit of the thunder Sony seems to have stolen. 

News Shooter says the crop is 1.74 in the title of their article.

 

DPreview has camera in hand and says its 1.64  https://t.co/yt46N2MI91

1 hour ago, bertzie said:

Your stills camera isn't a great video camera, my screwdriver makes a shitty hammer. We both got problems.

 

Does Canon have to remove video function all together before people get the friggen point?

 

Great is a very subjective word... different strokes for different folks.. for me its perfect