1.74x - A Crop Odyssey - Canon 5D Mark IV officially announced

[Flynn]

1 hour ago, myJTP said:

DPreview has camera in hand and says its 1.64  https://t.co/yt46N2MI91

Great is a very subjective word... different strokes for different folks.. for me its perfect

News Shooter had the camera in hand and says it's 1.74. Maybe they're wrong in this instance, but I trust them far more than DP Review when it comes to video. 

[darekbo]

Hi there is petition to Canon for full frame recording of 4k !!!!

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/full-frame-recording-of-4k-in-canon-5d-mk4

[jase]

Wow, went to bed and the next morning the thread got like doubled in size, how can that be? Ahh, yet another crop factor / calc-to-death discussion. 

23 minutes ago, darekbo said:

Hi there is petition to Canon for full frame recording of 4k !!!!

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/full-frame-recording-of-4k-in-canon-5d-mk4

Please do yourself a favor and dont start any stupid petition that will never become true. Did you read this topic here?

[darekbo]

Please do yourself a favor and do not post stupid post. There is always hope for change.

[OliKMIA]

Add that to the petition...

 

[DPC]

I predict that in the next couple of years FF / DLSR will stop being perceived as required for pro photographers (it's already less and less the case). And that, with declining budgets for commissions vs the speed at which the equipment becomes obsolete, it's going to be increasingly absurd for most pros to invest heavily in gear. The only investment that makes sense is intellectual. So with specs like this Olympus and Panasonic really do have a card to play. The OMD EM1 ii and the GH5 could be massive hits. You really don't need 30 or 45 or 50 mpx. 

[tomsemiterrific]

17 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Who is more stupid?

Lots of products continue to sell today because they are living on their past reputations. All the while they have been surpassed or others are beginning to provide what the market keeps demanding for those who know. But as in all fields of knowledge and discipline those "in the know" are few, those unable to look beyond the label are many, and the many keep those living off their past reputations in business for quite a while. 

What kills me is how reactionary and disappointing something like the long-awaited 5D Mk IV is, and yet Canon will turn around and do something unexpected like the XC10--which, for what it is, is a very innovative camera.

 

[JurijTurnsek]

Where does this crop leave future APS-C models? No 4K at APS-C crop for 4 more years? Also, poor future 6D markII, he never stood a chance it seems.

One glimmer of hope though: dual pixel AF was introduced with 70D, so maybe a proper 4K implementation will be too :D

[tomsemiterrific]

So, I have a question for Andrew. Just out of curiosity,  considering all the capabilities and features Canon has shown they are capable of putting in cameras, which would you cobble together and present as your version of what a 5D Mk IV should be?

 

[jase]

2 hours ago, darekbo said:

Please do yourself a favor and do not post stupid post. There is always hope for change.

Dont take it personal, but if one follows Canons actions over the past couple of years it becomes evident, that such a petition is not more than a waste of time.

[hmcindie]

5d mark III + magic lantern RAW will apparently still remain in my arsenal for A LONG time.

[Andrew Reid]

"Full frame" is a photographic standard so it measures 3:2 in terms of aspect ratio.

So surely it is more correct to say "4K on the 5D Mark IV is a 1.74x crop of full frame"

"Full frame" is not a 16:9 box.

OK we can measure only horizontally and that is 1.64x crop

But what about UHD 3840px? That would change the crop again and most people deliver in 16:9

So effectively the 5D Mark IV crop factor is more often than not 1.74x.

Anyway no matter what I think.... I hope we can we get a clearer consensus on how the crop factor calculations break down -

Reading the thread so far and various contributor math -

DCI 4K measured diagonally from the 3:2 photographic area it is 1.74x crop
DCI 4K measured diagonally from the 16:9 video area of full frame is 1.64x crop
DCI 4K (4096 pixels wide) is a horizontal crop factor of 1.64x

So what is the UHD 4K crop if your delivery needs to be in the usual aspect ratio and not the 17:9 of DCI 4K?
Back around 1.74x measured horizontally?

And what is the industry standard way of measuring video crop factors - the ones stated by manufacturers themselves - is it horizontally or diagonally? And do they take into account the full sensor 3:2 or 4:3 aspect ratio if measuring diagonally or just the 16:9 portion?

And as for the lenses -

EF-S mount lenses WILL NOT work on the 5D Mark IV as the rear glass intrudes too far into the mount... Although I hear on some lenses like the 10-22mm you can pop off the plastic shield at the back and it might work - no mirror hit?

And so Tokina 11-16mm F2.8 is best wide for 4K and you would need to swap lenses when you go back into FF stills mode

[Andrew Reid]

The Sigma 18-35mm is a far better option. F1.8 vs F4!

Problem is in UHD at 1.74x crop you're going to get 32mm at the wide end rather than 28mm.

[Garug]

It is what it is, that seems to be Canon approach, they are not much listening.

Looking the canon lineup it makes much sense, looking the competition, not sure but it still has potential to be a pretty good camera. Perfect for film making, not, especially not when looking what else is available, but maybe for some situations when weather sealing is needed, when 4k is not needed, when wide angle is not needed.

1.74x crop, if it provides better rolling shutter performance etc. I rather take it than FF.

The video codec is disappointing, Mini HDMI is disappointing, no 4k over HDMI is disappointing.... but it is what it is.

 

 

 

 

[Huuow]

the timing seems rigged ^^

http://www.43rumors.com/ft4-first-panasonic-gh5-spec-4k-422-10-bits-internal-recording/

1) The camera has no crop for 4K
2) 4:2:2 10 bits internal recording!!!!

[Jimmy]

4 minutes ago, Huuow said:

the timing seems rigged ^^

http://www.43rumors.com/ft4-first-panasonic-gh5-spec-4k-422-10-bits-internal-recording/

1) The camera has no crop for 4K
2) 4:2:2 10 bits internal recording!!!!

Sign me up

If they can get the 10bit 4:2:2 working nicely with P-Log, it will be the game changer we have all craved.

[ND64]

Actually 2x crop factor of upcoming GH5 will have higher quality than almost 2x crop of a FF sensor. Because in FF, its 1:1 readout, but in GH5 it will be downsampled. These days we dont have much problem with read out noise, we are now limited to shot noise (randomness of light), and that kind noise will be lower in downsampled data. I mean its not just about obsolescence of DSLRs, its about format advantage. 

[k-robert]

11 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

Are we sad that Canon has decided to not compete in the hybrid segment that they accidentally created all those years ago?  Are we disappointed that Canon's legacy is somehow jepordized?

Above all, how is this camera's reality anything new?  We've known that Canon isn't going to compete against their own cinema line, right?

It would be normal to hear such an argument from an arrogant, smart-ass Canon lawyer, but you should know better.

We don’t know Canon’s strategy and we don’t have to understand it either. Every company produces products, they think are good, and every consumer buys, what they find interesting.

BUT

Everybody, just a bit serious about photography makes a decision for a brand, trusts a company, and invests in that system. So when you have invested in lenses, flashes, remote controls, etc… you might be disappointed, if your chosen company lets you down. You have thought, you make a strategic partnership, and you are a hostage. So when you develop anti-stockholm syndrome, you are going to be angry and hate that buster. And it is your best right to express these feelings and even flame.

It is a stupid argument, and nonsense from Canon to think, that it would compete against their cinema-line by adding video-technology to the XD and XXD series. They don’t have to protect the Cinema cameras, because I am not going to attack. Don’t even consider it, for me it would be overkill. A person, who doesn’t buy the 80D, because important features are not implemented, would certainly not buy the 300D. Can you imagine that Mercedes doesn’t put ABS or aircon in their A and B series, in order to protect the S-class???

[hmcindie]

35 minutes ago, k-robert said:

You have thought, you make a strategic partnership, and you are a hostage.

That's actually how the best businesses work. You make the client a hostage, that's how you make the really big bucks.

[JurijTurnsek]

CIPA rating for live-view still shooting it at pathetic 300 shots (which puts them on par with mirrorless cams), despite the generous battery. Makes you wonder if the batteries will last any longer than that of mirrorless cams in 4K shooting mode (if you want to use dual pixel AF).