GH5 10-bit 4:2:2 internal?

[markr041]

20 minutes ago, Shenan said:

I meant to make this comment on the last news post about the GH5 but didn't get around to it...

I want to throw some water(?) on the idea that Panasonic will include the GX80/85 IBIS on the GH5. I think there's a lot of potential for disappointment if you expect this. I can't think of any camera right now with a large sensor, 4k, and IBIS that doesn't come with a recording time limit, and often with overheating issues even before reaching that time limit. The reason, from what I understand, is that as soon as you introduce IBIS you can no longer attach the sensor to a large enough heat sink because it would be too difficult (impossible?) to move the whole combination as is required with IBIS. Realize that IBIS would also limit their ability to produce high frame rates, for the same reason (sensor overheating). The GX80/85 has that great IBIS but also has a max frame rate of 60P and a max recording time of 30 minutes.

Engineering involves balancing many factors. Unless Panasonic has come up with some engineering breakthrough that would allow a combination of large sensor, 4k, IBIS, high frame rates, and no time limits (which I think is a very unlikely combination), I, for one, would choose unlimited record times over both IBIS and high frame rates. I think that unlimited recording time is one of the really special features of the GH4, and one of the main factors that would make me choose it over any of the competitors. If they do away with that, it would open up a lot of (competitor) options for me.

Oh, one more thing... I haven't yet seen any good reasons for them to change the body design from the GH3&GH4 -> GH5. Hopefully Panasonic realizes that they would do better to build on top of what they already have, rather than start from scratch and obsolete a lot of accessories.

Hogwash. The GX85 has IBIS in 4K, no extra crop when using IBIS, and no 30 minute limit. And it is much smaller than the GH4. It does not overheat, ever. In fact, Panasonic engineers have revealed that one of the reasons the GX85 is so heavy given its size is that there is a massive heatsink inside.

[sanveer]

28 minutes ago, Shenan said:

I meant to make this comment on the last news post about the GH5 but didn't get around to it...

I want to throw some water(?) on the idea that Panasonic will include the GX80/85 IBIS on the GH5. I think there's a lot of potential for disappointment if you expect this. I can't think of any camera right now with a large sensor, 4k, and IBIS that doesn't come with a recording time limit, and often with overheating issues even before reaching that time limit. The reason, from what I understand, is that as soon as you introduce IBIS you can no longer attach the sensor to a large enough heat sink because it would be too difficult (impossible?) to move the whole combination as is required with IBIS. Realize that IBIS would also limit their ability to produce high frame rates, for the same reason (sensor overheating). The GX80/85 has that great IBIS but also has a max frame rate of 60P and a max recording time of 30 minutes.

Engineering involves balancing many factors. Unless Panasonic has come up with some engineering breakthrough that would allow a combination of large sensor, 4k, IBIS, high frame rates, and no time limits (which I think is a very unlikely combination), I, for one, would choose unlimited record times over both IBIS and high frame rates. I think that unlimited recording time is one of the really special features of the GH4, and one of the main factors that would make me choose it over any of the competitors. If they do away with that, it would open up a lot of (competitor) options for me.

Oh, one more thing... I haven't yet seen any good reasons for them to change the body design from the GH3&GH4 -> GH5. Hopefully Panasonic realizes that they would do better to build on top of what they already have, rather than start from scratch and obsolete a lot of accessories.

If the Panasonic GX85 (the US version) can have No Time Limit for IBIS, I see no reason why the GH5 should have one. Also, like someone pointed out, the heating is more of a design flaw, in the Sony cameras, by cramming too much, into too little space. And, then (most likely) not having a heat sink (or an inadequate one). Like the Sony A6300 is smaller and lighter than the GX85, despite having a larger sensor. And, that most likely is the cause of all the overheating. 

[Shenan]

12 minutes ago, markr041 said:

Hogwash. The GX85 has IBIS in 4K, no extra crop when using IBIS, and no 30 minute limit. And it is much smaller than the GH4. It does not overheat, ever. In fact, Panasonic engineers have revealed that one of the reasons the GX85 is so heavy given its size is that there is a massive heatsink inside.

No need to call me a hog. But I stand corrected then. The B&H specs for it say a time limit of 29:59, but I now see that someone posted on dpreview that they personally tested up to about 1h 30m on 4k and IBIS. Impressive! I guess they've already made the engineering breakthrough I was imagining. Any links for the engineers talking about the heatsink? I would like know more about what they did.

Sanveer, you may be right that it was a design flaw with previous cameras. It's just curious that no one had solved it before.

I'm curious about what they're going to do with all the processing power that they're planning to add (according to a previous rumor). H.265 would be one of the possibilities, but hopefully other goodies as well. Anyway, I think I need to start saving my pennies for this camera...

[fuzzynormal]

7 hours ago, mercer said:

An extra .14x crop factor just means you have to take .14 steps back.

Ha!  Not quite as simple as all that, but then again...maybe it should be. ;-)

Funny thing is, I still use my 5D for a lot of interviews.  Full frame with a 50mm lens wide open.  Hard to beat that FOV and shallow DOF for a talking head shot.

[MattH]

4 hours ago, Rinad Amir said:

1080p 10bit

4k 8bit

prob

That would be the biggest buzzkill ever.  Like handing a kid an untied balloon.  I'd rather it not have 10 bit than that. At least you wouldnt be constantly torn. Unless the HD was downscaled from full sensor readout.  I wouldn't mind that then.

[Andrew Reid]

If the rumours turn out not to be true there's no reason to be too unhappy...

Panasonic could for example bridge the gap in quality between the 8bit GH4 and the 8bit 1D C before going all out with a fancy 10bit codec.

Better low light performance and a better less noisy LOG profile is a hope of mine

A simplified selection of picture profiles each with a separate use would be good, like this -

- A vivid punchy one with high colour saturation
- A more standard muted one for light grading
- A LOG profile
- A flat profile for those who want to adjust the gamma curve in post without going all out with LOG and LUTs

Just 4 or 5 would do it. Get rid of the fluff!

Also let's see them go back to the wide aspect ratio 1.86x crop sensor, like the GH2, great for DCI 4K 4096 x 2160

1080p 120fps with no crop and no moire would be FANTASTIC

All this is within the bounds of current technology, they just have to get it RIGHT!

[Mattias Burling]

I night not remember correctly but wasn't the GH4 100mbit in 4K and 200mbit in HD?

That's why my first thought was 10bit HD.

But again, just from memory and to lazy to google.

[fuzzynormal]

13 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

All this is within the bounds of current technology, they just have to get it RIGHT!

If any major company isn't bound by the prejudices of what a "stills" camera should be, I suppose it would be Panasonic.  They seem most flexible in that regard.  So, if they go for it with the video, they'll make a lot of motion picture folks happy.  But then what?  Would it ultimately impress the stills folks too?

After all, consumer enthusiasts love the fluff.

 

[The Chris]

4 hours ago, theSUBVERSIVE said:

Why would it? If you think about it, 10-bit means less compression than 8-bit, sure the bit rate is higher but I don't think there would be any overheating issue, even more if you consider that the GH4 is the coolest 4K camera out there. Processing is more important than bit rate, H.265 might be more processing intensive if they choose it, but 8-bit or 10-bit shouldn't change much.

Sony's issue is not just processing, it's the form factor. The NEX cameras overheated in 1080p! I had two of them and they both had overheating issue, the form factor is simply too small, Sony knows it, they just choose to ignore that and preserve the claim of the smallest and most compact FF cameras. Bottom line, there is nothing really that would indicate that it would be just 1080p because of overheating.

Bollocks, the a7rII doesn't overheat at all. Not in 4k and certainly not in 1080p. 

[Shenan]

54 minutes ago, The Chris said:

Bollocks, the a7rII doesn't overheat at all. Not in 4k and certainly not in 1080p. 

I've never used one, but perhaps you haven't run into it because you don't record very long clips? Perhaps only some units suffer from it, or perhaps a firmware update improved it since the original release?

A quick search turned up several reviews indicating overheating. Gizmodo mentions overheating in an air-conditioned room at around 45 minutes. B&H and newsshooter mention it but don't give time figures. This link mentions about 15-20 minutes for A7RII and 50 minutes for A7SII: http://www.4kshooters.net/2015/12/08/is-the-sony-a7s-ii-overheating-a-real-issue/

[TSV]

3 hours ago, Shenan said:

No need to call me a hog. But I stand corrected then. The B&H specs for it say a time limit of 29:59, but I now see that someone posted on dpreview that they personally tested up to about 1h 30m on 4k and IBIS. Impressive! I guess they've already made the engineering breakthrough I was imagining. Any links for the engineers talking about the heatsink? I would like know more about what they did.

Sanveer, you may be right that it was a design flaw with previous cameras. It's just curious that no one had solved it before.

I'm curious about what they're going to do with all the processing power that they're planning to add (according to a previous rumor). H.265 would be one of the possibilities, but hopefully other goodies as well. Anyway, I think I need to start saving my pennies for this camera...

There is a crop however when you enable IBIS + Digital Stabilisation. Just saying. 

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, mos said:

We need Cropmarks, badly!! Or the function to upload custom Cropmark-Images. Please anybody who visits Panasonic Reps in this time before the GH5 release, help us get rid of duct-taping our display. It's so 2008. Cropmarks, anamorphic desqueeze, punch-in focus zoom during recording, sound during 96fps. I will visit Photokina myself and try to get hold of influencing Panasonic Reps, but we need a lot of people. Been writing mails and tweets and posts for the past 2 years.

Indeed, asking for 2.35 and 1.85 aspect ratio crop lines on 16:9 is such a simple and basic request they could have EASILY included even all the way back to GH1 days. But they haven't yet.

[jax_rox]

14 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Wouldn't mind it if they start using XQD or CFast cards in the GH bodies. (but please not microP2!)

I thought XQD was a SanDisk/Sony collab? In which case, can't see Panasonic getting on board with that!

--

Considering the DVX200 isn't recording 10-bit 4:2:2 internally, I can't see Panasonic putting that functionality into a camera 1/2 (or less) its price.

I think the smart play for Panasonic would be to bring out an AF101 successor that has 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 internal (and V-Log)

Then have your GH5, with 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p, 8-bit 4k with no crop.

I'd brand the two as 'Varicam' cameras which would bring a bit of notoriety and 'professionalism' to the products. It would solidify a product line-up as per Sony, RED, Arri, Canon, Blackmagic etc. Panasonic is really the only major player that seems to be kinda flailing about - and they appear to be failing to gain traction on their higher-end models. Compare to Canon or Sony in particular who have a very solid product line-up, and manageable upgrade path. Panasonic has none of this, and they could have all of it.

An even smarter play would be to have a S35 sensor that crops down to m4/3 size, so by default you can use all your m4/3 lenses seamlessly (as the APS-C mode on the A7 series), but Panasonic could then sell their own m4/3 to PL adapter, and productions using an AF 200/GH5/Varicam combo could keep their lens choice consistent.

And considering the lens mount on the VaricamLT is interchangeable, it's possible that you could sell an m4/3 mount for the LT, so you could use your m4/3 lenses on it in a crop mode, providing both a cheaper alternative to those upgrading, and also the ability to make some more cash from sales of their own lenses - considering they must have a relationship with Leica, there's no reason they couldn't do something similar to the Sony/Zeiss lenses.

To me that's a really strong product line-up and would serve them better than what they're doing now.

[Jimmy]

DVX200 is over a year old now though and a very different type of cam.

Also, I heard the panasonic camera and video departments are separate and get to do what they want... not sure the truth in that though.

[Orangenz]

So does this mean anything to the people suggestion the GX85 and the GH5 were going to have the same sensor? If the GX85 has 2.2 crop and GH5 has 2.0 crop then doesn't that mean it has to be a different sensor?

[tyger11]

4 hours ago, jax_rox said:

Quote

I thought XQD was a SanDisk/Sony collab? In which case, can't see Panasonic getting on board with that!

XQD is based on a PCIe connection, and was picked up by the Compact Flash Association after initial development. Panasonic would have no reason NOT to choose it if they want. XQD 2.0 has a theoretical top speed faster than CFast 2.0's theoretical top speed.

[zerocool22]

Yeah +10 bit, much better colors(maybe better sensor like the varicam lt), and a lot better noise performance is all we need.

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, Orangenz said:

So does this mean anything to the people suggestion the GX85 and the GH5 were going to have the same sensor? If the GX85 has 2.2 crop and GH5 has 2.0 crop then doesn't that mean it has to be a different sensor?

No the GX85 does not use the full 4.6K sensor resolution, it crops a 4K portion of that

The entire sensor is still a 2x crop compared to full frame, just as it will be on the GH5.

5 hours ago, jax_rox said:

Considering the DVX200 isn't recording 10-bit 4:2:2 internally, I can't see Panasonic putting that functionality into a camera 1/2 (or less) its price.

The DVX200 is a news gathering ENG style camera with documentary and faux-cinema leanings, but the main thing is that those who use it want to record for longer and need small file sizes.

That's probably why it doesn't have 10bit 4:2:2 at high bitrates.

It isn't about the GH5 getting a better codec than a more expensive camera... It is about matching the codec to the type of user.

GH4 users have spoken very loudly about wanting 10bit 4:2:2 internally and not just on the HDMI.

If Panasonic were serious about segmenting their cameras based on 8bit and 10bit, they probably wouldn't have put a 10bit output on the GH4 in the first place!

[Orangenz]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

No the GX85 does not use the full 4.6K sensor resolution, it crops a 4K portion of that

The entire sensor is still a 2x crop compared to full frame, just as it will be on the GH5.

But the rumor is that the GH5 will have no 4k video crop from sensor width. Are you saying the sensor is the same and so the GH5 will use the whole 4.6k and then downscale to 4k rather than using a pixel for pixel crop from the middle? Edit: I'm thinking this is all evidence that the GH5 sensor is different from the GX85 and looks to be a multi-aspect sensor designed for 4k video ratios before picture ratio. If the "no 4k crop" applies to the full 4k then UHD would have a small crop just like the difference between the two on the GH4.

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, jax_rox said:

I thought XQD was a SanDisk/Sony collab? In which case, can't see Panasonic getting on board with that!

Nikon uses XQD as well, basically the world of next gen cards seems to be broken into XQD vs CFast. 

And Panasonic hasn't really given any indication at all as to which way they might jump for their top of the line mirrorless camera. (except that Panasonic does use P2 cards, but just maaaaybe, they might see the P2 users as a totally different class to GH series users and thus class them with something else of XQD or CFast. Anyway.... they might just stick with SD cards, as the latest fasts cards can handle 4K 10bit)

 

7 hours ago, jax_rox said:

Considering the DVX200 isn't recording 10-bit 4:2:2 internally, I can't see Panasonic putting that functionality into a camera 1/2 (or less) its price.

By the time the GH5 comes out next year the DVX200 will be becoming reasonably long in the tooth, and remember a large chunk of the cost of the DVX200 is its Leica lens, which a GH body never comes with. Plus the DVX200 is aimed for a rather different class of users. 

7 hours ago, jax_rox said:

I think the smart play for Panasonic would be to bring out an AF101 successor that has 4k 10-bit 4:2:2 internal (and V-Log)

Then have your GH5, with 10-bit 4:2:2 1080p, 8-bit 4k with no crop.

I'd brand the two as 'Varicam' cameras which would bring a bit of notoriety and 'professionalism' to the products. It would solidify a product line-up as per Sony, RED, Arri, Canon, Blackmagic etc. Panasonic is really the only major player that seems to be kinda flailing about - and they appear to be failing to gain traction on their higher-end models. Compare to Canon or Sony in particular who have a very solid product line-up, and manageable upgrade path. Panasonic has none of this, and they could have all of it.

I fully agree Panasonic should bring out a low/mid range camera above their mirrorless range. 

But they certainly could have a GH5 4K 10bit @US$2K + AF200 (as a direct FS7/C300mk2) @US$8K + Varicam LT kit @US$25K, without needing to worry about any substantial overlap between the three of them.

And as Panasonic has been gaining a lot of attention with the GH4 (and hopefully even more with the GH5!!), they're gaining lots of new users, especially people new ish to filmmaking in general, so  you want a very clear path for them to follow as they grow up and improve and expand out. 

At the moment a young professional starting out with a GH4 today is most likely to get a Sony FS7 / RED Raven / URSA Mini 4.6K next, instead of a Panasonic camera. Having a cheaper Varicam LT helps a bit from what it used to be before, but the jump is still too large from GH4 to Varicam LT!! There needs to be at least one (or two!) steeping stones between the GH4 and the Varicam LT.  Otherwise you will leak customers as they move up in price point.