Ursa mini...is this the end of blackmagic?

[Ed_David]

The LCD touch  screen was broken. The camera feels like it was thrown together last second.

This was the display  model camera. At b and h.

Not a good sign.

Does anyone else have that feeling that this will be their last camera and they will leave the camera business?

I just cant see them selling many of these.

 

 

[Mattias Burling]

Display units in stores are always broken and man handled in my experience. No matter what brand.

No, I think they will stay on for a while still.

On the still side its another story. Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Pentax.... This won't last. There aren't enough customers. Samsung is not the last to go.

[Bioskop.Inc]

Over at BMCuser, someone posted that they dropped their Mini 4.6k, it landed on the handle & cracked the casing, causing damage to the mother board inside - BM wouldn't repair it! However, it does produce lovely images, if used by someone who knows what they're doing...

I personally think that they'll keep going, but will revert to smaller packages (box like cams) - if they can figure out how to heat sink in a smaller package (the same user took his Mini apart & the majority of the camera is dedicated to the heat sink module). You've got to remember that BM cameras are budget cameras & they will have to cut corners in quality/build to keep the prices competative & low.

You've got to admit that the images coming from these cameras can be awesome & I hope that they struggle through, just like RED did at the beginning. I believe that in another 10yrs time, we'll be talking about BM cameras in the same breath as RED & maybe ARRI.

The biggest problem that they have at the moment is lack of user knowledge & this is due to the low price of some of their cameras - for every great user, there are at least 10 numpties whose lack of filming knowledge gets exposed as soon as they pick one up. They are not DSLRs & shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, let alone compared to them.

If you don't get this, then DO NOT buy one, because you're probably the type of person that hasn't the time or patience to learn how to use them.

Just look at all the [stupid BS] hate aimed at the Pocket camera: poor battery life, bad screen etc... 45mins time limit for battery & SD card whilst filming PR. The screen is by a country mile not the worst i've ever used & I seem to manage very well nailing focus - I wear glasses, which adds an extra dimension of difficulty to the whole thing. 

And these same people talk about wanting to replicate a filmic image, just imagine them using a film camera that has a max filming time of 12mins - people with no skill or patience to learn will complain about anything if you let them, it's how they cover up for their short comings. It's a crying shame, but it's their loss........

[squig]

BM cameras give the best bang for buck, and I think they'll be making cameras for a long time. Certainly they have some design issues; to be expected from a small company. The BMMCC is pretty good, if it wasn't for Magic Lantern it would be my go to camera for narrative work.

[benymypony]

It's very interesting. In my opinion I think that Blackmagic is the camera manufacturer with the biggest potiental today.
I'm tired of all these cameras with low video abilities for pro.
I mean we need RAW, we need at least 4:2:2 10bit, we need ProPres internal, we need a serious LOG profile, we need 4K 60fps minimum, we need < 5000€ price, etc. We are in 2016...
For sure Sony, Canon and Panasonic are able to do that in a DSLR but they don't want, to prevent cross market products (otherwise, overheating seems the only problem imo).
Recently I bought a used Blackmagic Production 4K in pack with SSD and lenses and even if this camera has some bad points, there is no competitor at this price.
Hope Blackmagic will not become as RED and create a camera that cost a house.

[AaronChicago]

No way. I've been using the 4.6k with no problems for months. The new 4.0 firmware puts it over the top. 4.6k, 4K DCI, & 3K anamorphic ProRes. Custom LUT display. 2x desqueeze on the 5" LCD. I've finally found a camera that is perfect for what i do.

[Flynn]

I wish they'd just focus on developing a killer new model of the BMPCC. To me, it looks like they've wasted a ton of time and money developing all these niche cameras when the one camera they have that sold reasonably well and has broad appeal is in dire need of a hardware update. One or two cameras for BM is more than enough. Keep it simple. They have spent a fortune developing all these other cameras.  Just focus on improving the 4.6 and the BMPCC.

[DBounce]

BM does offer bang for buck. But there are many issues with their cameras.  Some might say the pocket cannot be compared to DSLRs, yet this is exactly the market it competes in.  So yes,  it can be compared... and indeed is compared,  due to its form factor.  And in that context it's shortcomings put it at a disadvantage.

There is lots of potential for BM, but that potential can go either way.  The Ursa Mini 4.6k launch was a nightmare. I still keep an eye on BM, but will hold off from buying anymore of their cameras until they become more established as a reliable camera brand. To my mind,  the most interesting newcomer is Kinfinity, but I need to see more, and learn more about them before dropping any coin. 

22 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

No way. I've been using the 4.6k with no problems for months. The new 4.0 firmware puts it over the top. 4.6k, 4K DCI, & 3K anamorphic ProRes. Custom LUT display. 2x desqueeze on the 5" LCD. I've finally found a camera that is perfect for what i do.

If it's perfect for what you do you're set.  Have fun shooting,  and post some work!

[Axel]

57 minutes ago, DBounce said:

BM does offer bang for buck. But there are many issues with their cameras.  Some might say the pocket cannot be compared to DSLRs, yet this is exactly the market it competes in.  So yes,  it can be compared... and indeed is compared,  due to its form factor.  And in that context it's shortcomings put it at a disadvantage.

I had been listening to people who told me, look, it's not even real HD and UHD is the way to go nowadays. They were right, I saw the Pocket's limits in resolution, and it started to bother me. I sold it and every piece of equipment associated with it. Now I have tons of footage from the said people in glorious 4k and I can watch it in native resolution and I can compare it to my old Pocket footage. And I could cry. Resolution isn't everything. What about handling? People have exact CWB, various implementations of AF, AE or - and this is not exaggerated - millions of combinable profile-settings. None of these has the Pocket. And yet, all these funky functions don't seem to help much, because of the image quality.  You don't believe that or see that? Then be happy, stay happy ...

[DBounce]

48 minutes ago, Axel said:

I had been listening to people who told me, look, it's not even real HD and UHD is the way to go nowadays. They were right, I saw the Pocket's limits in resolution, and it started to bother me. I sold it and every piece of equipment associated with it. Now I have tons of footage from the said people in glorious 4k and I can watch it in native resolution and I can compare it to my old Pocket footage. And I could cry. Resolution isn't everything. What about handling? People have exact CWB, various implementations of AF, AE or - and this is not exaggerated - millions of combinable profile-settings. None of these has the Pocket. And yet, all these funky functions don't seem to help much, because of the image quality.  You don't believe that or see that? Then be happy, stay happy ...

Of course I see the iq of the pocket... I owned two of them. But they are not the best to work with. If you were so convinced, why did you sell? Or have you now forgotten all that was wrong with the BMs?  How about that low-light Performance? Remember the fantastic audio quality? Loved the image stabilization?... Exactly! And that's just the pocket. Not to say you can't get great results. But you will work harder for them... a lot harder. And for the most part, any notion of "pocket friendly" is unrealistic in most cases. 

But nowhere did I knock the image quality. Granted, on that note, the image from the BMs are generally more understated, at least I wouldn't call them punchy, quite cinematic though... and great motion cadence. 

[Axel]

14 minutes ago, DBounce said:

If you were so convinced, why did you sell?

Lousy camera operator. Existential decision. Spent too much time and money and wasn't creative.

22 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Or have you now forgotten all that was wrong with the BMs?  How about that low-light Performance? Remember the fantastic audio quality? Loved the image stabilization?... Exactly!

The best film is the film that is actually made. And the worst excuse in summer 2016 is that I didn't own the right camera. I always had the right camera. The Ursa Mini would have been the momentary object of my NCD, a more reasonable one perhaps the upcoming GH5.

What I mean is, if a fail with the Pocket, I fail with any other camera. If I succeed with my iPhone, the success would only be gradually better in the end had I had an Alexa instead.

[DBounce]

30 minutes ago, Axel said:

Lousy camera operator. Existential decision. Spent too much time and money and wasn't creative.

The best film is the film that is actually made. And the worst excuse in summer 2016 is that I didn't own the right camera. I always had the right camera. The Ursa Mini would have been the momentary object of my NCD, a more reasonable one perhaps the upcoming GH5.

What I mean is, if a fail with the Pocket, I fail with any other camera. If I succeed with my iPhone, the success would only be gradually better in the end had I had an Alexa instead.

Very true. It's easy to get caught up in gear. My current camera is not perfect, but I know it's good enough to help me to tell a story, because others have done so. Like you, I realize, if I fail, in the end I can only blame myself. I'm forcing myself to shoot more. And while it's scary to put your work out there, at risk of harsh judgement, it's the only way to learn if it's any good. Personally,  I've turned my attention to learning filming techniques and editing... getting better at the art of film. The gear is now secondary. 

[Raafi Rivero]

3 hours ago, DBounce said:

To my mind,  the most interesting newcomer is Kinfinity, but I need to see more, and learn more about them before dropping any coin. 

Funny because Kinefinity just pulled something right out of the BlackMagic playbook and pushed the Terra back again. I doubt we'll see the 5k version before 2017.

That said, I admire what BlackMagic (and Kinefinity) are doing. (and what RED did before them). If the build quality on the Ursa Mini isn't up to military-grade right now, the tradeoff is price: cinema-quality images in a package that won't last. Once you get up to RED-level build quality with carbon-fiber knick-knacks, titanium this-and-that, then you aren't playing in the $5k sandbox anymore.

What we really need is an excellent chip with a shallow-flange lens mount on it. Speedboost your way up to FF or not. A great rig from Zacuto. And the Atomos/Odyssey recorder does the rest.  How much would that cost?

[DBounce]

26 minutes ago, Raafi Rivero said:

Funny because Kinefinity just pulled something right out of the BlackMagic playbook and pushed the Terra back again. I doubt we'll see the 5k version before 2017.

That said, I admire what BlackMagic (and Kinefinity) are doing. (and what RED did before them). If the build quality on the Ursa Mini isn't up to military-grade right now, the tradeoff is price: cinema-quality images in a package that won't last. Once you get up to RED-level build quality with carbon-fiber knick-knacks, titanium this-and-that, then you aren't playing in the $5k sandbox anymore.

What we really need is an excellent chip with a shallow-flange lens mount on it. Speedboost your way up to FF or not. A great rig from Zacuto. And the Atomos/Odyssey recorder does the rest.  How much would that cost?

Yeah, delays are to be expected, but I have not forgotten the black sun incident... didn't they just throw in the towel on that one? Or the magenta cast issue. BM is why I'm holding off on any purchase of the Terra until the reviews are in. I need real user feedback before I'm convinced. I done with being a guinea pig.

[Kino]

BMD's problem has always been quality control. Sadly, they seem to have only gotten worse with the Ursa Mini 4K and 4.6K. They don't learn from their past mistakes in rushing cameras out before they are ready. I think it has something to do with the fact that they source parts and do not manufacture their own circuits and sensors as with RED and the electronics conglomerates (Sony, Panasonic, Canon). They are a small camera operation (setting aside their post-production business, which is much older and more established) and offer niche budget products to indie filmmakers and videographers. I'm sure they will continue to focus on this market as opposed to producing cameras for larger productions, which require extensive service arrangements and logistical support.

I shoot with the BMPC-4K and I had a 4.6K on preorder last year. Once I learned about all the problems, I cancelled it just before they shipped it to me. Currently, it's just too much of a risk. Perhaps when they have figured out all the problems, I can be confident in ordering one again.

As for the price/performance, there is nothing even close . . .

[Celli]

went straight from Sony Nex 5r with kit-lens to Ursa mini 4K. I knew what I would get, and this camera is absolutely perfect for what I am shooting. It's really the "low" price that puts those tools in hands where it doesn't belong. That's all there is to it really.

[Ed_David]

For what I have read on these boards and others, BM's weakness is indeed quality control as well as customer service and repairs.

Because of this, they should have much better global support.

I can't imagine them making much money on their cameras, especially since they aren't making them in bulk like Canon or Sony.

I know the images out of them are incredible - but I wouldn't own a camera that I would bring on a shoot and not be confident that it won't break, especially if I'm in a place that's far away.

When the Red One first came out, same thing - people would have to have two of them in case one broke.

You buy 2 Ursa Minis and you are at the cost of one fs7 or now c300 ii

[Bioskop.Inc]

47 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

For what I have read on these boards and others, BM's weakness is indeed quality control as well as customer service and repairs.

Because of this, they should have much better global support.

I can't imagine them making much money on their cameras, especially since they aren't making them in bulk like Canon or Sony.

I know the images out of them are incredible - but I wouldn't own a camera that I would bring on a shoot and not be confident that it won't break, especially if I'm in a place that's far away.

When the Red One first came out, same thing - people would have to have two of them in case one broke.

You buy 2 Ursa Minis and you are at the cost of one fs7 or now c300 ii

Exactly, if you're shooting something high profile you need to stick with something reliable & that's where the C series really shines - it's all there in one box & does the job. Wasn't "Blue is the Warmest Colour" shot on the C300 & that looked fine - it also won the Palm D'Or, so you can't really knock it?

But having said that i've never read anything about the Pocket failing & it has served me very well - no problems whatsoever. And those that need stabilisation, just haven't learnt how to hold a camera steady yet - first time I used it I did a lot of handheld stuff (no speedbooster or wide lens), just had some heavy lenses on it & no jitters or unusable footage. It's a craft & as such needs a lot of practice/understanding.

Never heard of or seen someone dropping a camera either - that's just the first rule of filmmaking, take care of the camera, even if it means you damage yourself. Yeah accidents happen, but dropping the tool of your trade, unthinkable!

[AaronChicago]

8 hours ago, DBounce said:

If it's perfect for what you do you're set.  Have fun shooting,  and post some work!

Here are 2 videos I shot earlier this summer:

The intro and performance were shot with the 4.6K on this one:

I have 2 other videos done that I can't post yet but here are a couple of frame grabs:

 

 

 

[squig]

The BMCC could do with a replacement. Something in a 1kg C100 like body with an S35 sensor, global shutter, 14 stops, 3200 ISO, and 2.5k for 2.5k would be great.