Ursa mini...is this the end of blackmagic?

[IronFilm]

AJA Cion failed due to the (initially) very high price of the camera  (relative to the BMPC4K) and very high priced proprietary media.

 

Also didn't they initially make it PL only? Another dumb move if it was ever going to have a broad uptake. Should've had an EF option much earlier. 

[Kino]

14 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

They just rock up to the sensor drive though and get a Big Mac sensor meal to go.

JB.  

From their quality control, it does look like it. Does the "Big Mac sensor meal" come with a side of magenta?

[Ed_David]

14 hours ago, John Brawley said:

 

 

I think we can all agree none of us know the cost and time it takes to make a camera.  You are right John, I shouldn't poo-poo this innovative camera that gives raw and pro res - no one else has done it at the price point they do it as except for DJI

I apologize for this thread.

But still, the Ursa Mini is built pretty cheaply.  As well as the Digital Bolex.  

 

To me, the most exciting upstart is DJI with the Inspire one.  They went from the phantom which is fairly cheaply-built to an incredibly beautiful and powerful.

I have no clue how DJI is doing it, and no company is the same.

But I guess to be positive now - what is DJI's secret?  What do they have that allows them to put out a beautiful drone for so cheap? 

[IronFilm]

Errr... the DJI X5R is Us $3.3K with expensive media!! And was even much more expensive when it first came out!

& is an extremely no frills camera vs an URSA Mini. No pro audio (its fan is too noisy anyway), no SDI out, etc

I'd never think of a X5R as an ultra good value camera like I would with a BMD product. 

[Ed_David]

The inspire x5 is a work of art that probably matches the optics of a gh4. 

Each company .... Ikonoscope....digital bolex....and anton have failed for different reasons.

Its not an easy gig.

But upstarts like metabones and dji and freefly have not. They are soaring.

Is blackmagic soaring? Are sales good?

I still in my gut dont think so.

 

[Kino]

Blackmagic must be doing something right as the Ursa Mini 4.6k is sold out wherever you look. For all their problems, they offer something that no other camera manufacturer does in this price range. The only company that comes close is Kinefinity, but they have nowhere near the global reach and distribution that BMD enjoys.

[John Brawley]

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

AJA Cion failed due to the (initially) very high price of the camera  (relative to the BMPC4K) and very high priced proprietary media.

 

Also didn't they initially make it PL only? Another dumb move if it was ever going to have a broad uptake. Should've had an EF option much earlier. 

I think they failed because they didn't make a good camera.  Everyone THOUGHT it would be a good camera on spec and to look at but actually it really wasn't.  The images were mediocre.  It didn't even do half the features claimed unless you used an un-announced and un-launched external recorder that AJA were presumably going to build later.

It also says a lot about those who say it's just an off the shelf sensor.  There are at least three cameras that are rumoured to use the same sensor, all with different results. Go figure...

I think Art Adams got a lot right in this scathing review of the camera.  And it's very telling that pictures just didn't deliver.  

At the end of the day, that's what people want...good looking images. Cion didn't really give you that.  Not only that, I personally actually found it to be a pig on the shoulder, being way too front heavy, and despite everyone championing it's ergonomics, they kind of sucked for me in my brief time with it.

I really don't think it's simply cost.  For most medium to high end pros, those costs were still at the lower end of the scale.

 

2 hours ago, Ed_David said:

 

But upstarts like metabones and dji and freefly have not. They are soaring.

 

Only one of those companies is making a camera, and that camera is a very very niche camera.

Kino, just dont make shit up when you have no idea what you're talking about.

JB 

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, John Brawley said:

I think they failed because they didn't make a good camera.  Everyone THOUGHT it would be a good camera on spec and to look at but actually it really wasn't.  The images were mediocre.  It didn't even do half the features claimed unless you used an un-announced and un-launched external recorder that AJA were presumably going to build later.

 

I think the AJA Cion might maybe have had a shot at being an acceptable "good" camera if it had been priced the same as a BMPC4K. But it wasn't, it was way way waaaaay higher in price! 

[John Brawley]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I think the AJA Cion might maybe have had a shot at being an acceptable "good" camera if it had been priced the same as a BMPC4K. But it wasn't, it was way way waaaaay higher in price! 

Ok so if you could get one today for 3K it would be a "good" camera ?

jb 

[Liam]

58 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

Ok so if you could get one today for 3K it would be a "good" camera ?

jb 

Maybe?

This still impresses me 

for $500 it would be an amazing camera.. you can see where "good" might balance out to

[John Brawley]

15 minutes ago, Liam said:

Maybe?

This still impresses me 

for $500 it would be an amazing camera.. you can see where "good" might balance out to

One just sold on EBay with media for 3.5k. Go get one ! (Ok it's a bit more than 500) but ita not far from F35s for that kind of money second hand....

jb 

[DBounce]

14 minutes ago, Liam said:

Maybe?

This still impresses me 

for $500 it would be an amazing camera.. you can see where "good" might balance out to

I tried a AJA Cion awhile ago. It's huge. A proper beast of a camera. Built like a tank. And as heavy as one also. No dynamic range... barely 8 stops. Horrendous in low light. If I saw one for $1k I would pass.

[Liam]

So we're honing in on the over $500, below $1000 range..

[dhessel]

The build quality of the Mini probably won't be end of BM's cameras after all it seems the 4.6K is a very popular camera. One of the most concerning ones is that they apparently designed the camera to have a CPU right behind where the side handle attaches. There have been a few reports of the camera taking a fall and landing on the handle, breaking the outer housing, which in turn hits the circuit board breaking a CPU. In these instances BM has refused to repair the cameras leaving the owners SOL. 

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=51171

My biggest issue with BM is that I really don't like the way the company, at least when it comes to cameras, operates. It is awesome that BM offers free versions of their software but the way they conduct themselves otherwise is downright disrepectful at times. They over promise and under deliever, they are deceptive and not really trust worthy. With the Mini two features were lost GPS in September 2015 and global shutter in March 2016 yet they announced at NAB the camera was going to be shipping in July 2015 when they were clearly nowhere near ready to ship. Some say it was over optimism but I don't buy it, I think they knew full well they wouldn't make that date an announced it anyway. Then for the following eight months they moved the ship date one month at a time stringing customers even though I am sure they also knew that it would not be shipping that following month in the many instances when they changed the date. It seems they like to create a buzz, offer a BS ship date to get people excited and focused on the product then string them along until it is finally ready. 

There are many other instances dating back to their very first camera and their communication still an issue. The biggest one for me is how they treated their URSA owners. At NAB they said that URSA owners would be given priority for the 4.6k sensors and would get their turret upgrades first. They even announced a lower price for the 4K URSA so new customers could buy it then and pre-order the turret for the same price as just pre-ordering the 4.6K URSA. That way the can use the camera now and would also be given first priority on the new sensors. Yet when the time came they backed out of their promise and released the 4.6k Mini first. Now I understand it is a business and clearly the Mini was the new flag ship camera. With it being so overdue they decided to release it instead of living up to their promise. Understandable but how did they handle it? An appology or at least an explanation to the URSA owners? Nope, they said absolutely nothing at all. They released the Mini and didn't even bother to mention the URSA in their announment email or video. They left the URSA owners in the dark with out any official announcment or explaination. The URSA owners still have no idea when they might be getting theirs but they are clearly at the bottom of priorities now. 

If someone can come up and offer what BM does I am sure many BM users would happily jump ship, especially if they are respectful and communicate well. Until then BM probably isn't going anywhere. 

[graphicnatured]

On August 28, 2016 at 1:29 PM, Bioskop.Inc said:

Exactly, if you're shooting something high profile you need to stick with something reliable

I shoot professional gigs every week with Blackmagic cameras and I have not had one issue with reliability. My job sometimes is to capture both video and stills and I have way more issues with my Nikon D800/D3s freezing up and having to eject the battery, etc ..  Had the pocket since it came out and have never had an issue with it in terms of reliability. Micro Cinema, no issues yet either.

[Bioskop.Inc]

2 hours ago, graphicnatured said:

I shoot professional gigs every week with Blackmagic cameras and I have not had one issue with reliability. My job sometimes is to capture both video and stills and I have way more issues with my Nikon D800/D3s freezing up and having to eject the battery, etc ..  Had the pocket since it came out and have never had an issue with it in terms of reliability. Micro Cinema, no issues yet either.

If you'd read my other posts, then you'd have seen that I too have had no issues with BM products either - I have the pocket, it's rock solid & an amazing camera.

People who complain about silly things, like battery life or perfectly acceptable screens, just aren't serious enough for my tastes. Finding excuses seems to be rife at the moment, but price vs. image quality and you just can't overlook BM cameras - if you do, you're just missing out on some of the best cameras out there. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! People have got to stop listening to those with other agendas & actually try using one of these cameras. The Pocket's 45mins battery life is not a problem, simply because if you've ever done any filming, 45mins is a long time & you're never going to be filming continuously (you will stop, move etc.), so how hard is it to change a battery - takes a few seconds & few more if you need to change the SD card too. The more you film with something, the more you're aware of what you need to do - if you've never used a camera, your opinion is irrelevant, pointless & just plain stupid.

That comment, about the C300, was just for the people who have been bashing BM cams (& DSLRs, especially Canon) & the next step up for them would be something like the C series - they'd complain about that too, "It's too expensive...blah, blah, blah....."

[AaronChicago]

19 minutes ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

If you'd read my other posts, then you'd have seen that I too have had no issues with BM products either - I have the pocket, it's rock solid & an amazing camera.

People who complain about silly things, like battery life or perfectly acceptable screens, just aren't serious enough for my tastes. Finding excuses seems to be rife at the moment, but price vs. image quality and you just can't overlook BM cameras - if you do, you're just missing out on some of the best cameras out there. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! People have got to stop listening to those with other agendas & actually try using one of these cameras. The Pocket's 45mins battery life is not a problem, simply because if you've ever done any filming, 45mins is a long time & you're never going to be filming continuously (you will stop, move etc.), so how hard is it to change a battery - takes a few seconds & few more if you need to change the SD card too. The more you film with something, the more you're aware of what you need to do - if you've never used a camera, your opinion is irrelevant, pointless & just plain stupid.

That comment, about the C300, was just for the people who have been bashing BM cams (& DSLRs, especially Canon) & the next step up for them would be something like the C series - they'd complain about that too, "It's too expensive...blah, blah, blah....."

I think Blackmagic is listening to feedback though. Regarding screens/batteries. They switched to a better Canon batter for the Micro. They really stepped up their LCD game with the Ursa's and Video Assist.

[Ed_David]

On 8/31/2016 at 8:13 PM, John Brawley said:

I think they failed because they didn't make a good camera.  Everyone THOUGHT it would be a good camera on spec and to look at but actually it really wasn't.  The images were mediocre.  It didn't even do half the features claimed unless you used an un-announced and un-launched external recorder that AJA were presumably going to build later.

It also says a lot about those who say it's just an off the shelf sensor.  There are at least three cameras that are rumoured to use the same sensor, all with different results. Go figure...

I think Art Adams got a lot right in this scathing review of the camera.  And it's very telling that pictures just didn't deliver.  

At the end of the day, that's what people want...good looking images. Cion didn't really give you that.  Not only that, I personally actually found it to be a pig on the shoulder, being way too front heavy, and despite everyone championing it's ergonomics, they kind of sucked for me in my brief time with it.

I really don't think it's simply cost.  For most medium to high end pros, those costs were still at the lower end of the scale.

 

Only one of those companies is making a camera, and that camera is a very very niche camera.

Kino, just dont make shit up when you have no idea what you're talking about.

JB 

I thought we all agreed none of us have any idea what we are talking about?

Who here makes cameras or even has made any camera part or accessory for sale?

My day job is i am in dental school.

??

 

Good looking images is only half of what i look for in a camera. I also look for if the camera will save me time or cost me time with its ergonomics and balance and reliability in the field.

The amount of sweat that pours down my face when a camera is not booting up. Thats a burned in image.

[squig]

15 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

My day job is i am in dental school.

??

Lulz!

I knew it.

16 minutes ago, Ed_David said:

The amount of sweat that pours down my face when a camera is not booting up. Thats a burned in image.

The BMMCC takes up fuck all room in my bag, even so its worth putting it there just so I never look like a complete fuckwit.

[Hanriverprod]

I don't know if this is what happened, but I can't imagine bmd was not aware of the magenta issue (both symmetric and asymmetric) effecting maybe all um 4.6k sensors to varying degreess before the release of the camera. They probably released the camera anyway because of whatever internal and external pressures. Now it's luck of the draw for their customers how bad this problem rears its head on their cameras. Now all cameras have their issues but this seems pretty bad and also bad form for bmd as they continue to address it with a lot of secrecy when it's such a known fact.

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=47333&start=2000