Ursa mini...is this the end of blackmagic?

[Hanriverprod]

3 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I'm not talking about technical issues with the cameras, I'm talking about accusing BMD of knowingly releasing faulty products.

Yeah I hope they didn't because that's a shitty thing to do. But even decent people make bad choices under incredible pressure and these days there is no worse pressure than the almighty dollar. Still from looking at what they were facing in terms of delays and having very early adopters notice the issue you can't help but be skeptical. I hope they the do the right thing to the customers who believed in them blindly and either fix their cameras or replace them. 

[Ed_David]

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

I think John Brawley has shown great tact. On the other hand, someone starting a topic about the demise of a company based solely on a camera sitting on the shelf at B&H seems preposterous to me. And really, I don't see the point of comparing DJI to Black Magic. DJI makes drones, not NLE systems or cinema cameras. DJI's Osmo X5 Raw, while innovative, has enough drawbacks to fill a page, so they aren't god either.

Dji makes cameras and stabilizers which are all ground breaking at their pricepoint.

The dji inspire is a game changer.

Have you used it?

Listen i never swore insulted a user directly on this thread.

My crime is making a clickbait topic post.

But still...no other camera at b and h was broken and the two sales reps both spoke poorly of the camera 

What does that say about a companies flagship new camera?

 

About pontificating about bmd willingly released cameras with magneta issue because they were pressured too...of course this is not presented as fact. No one here besides maybe John would have even that kind of knowledge.

This is a camera nerd message board with people using fake names like boingboing...not science magazine where everyone has a pd h.

This is supposed to be a fun place to share ideas and knowledge and falso information pretending to be an old 67 year old man.

[John Brawley]

The problem with Kino is that he posts after trying to reverse engineer his knowledge with a google search. 

Look at his claim about Sony and RED being the only company that make their own sensors and ASICs. He is of course just parroting some marketing speak to support another of HIS claims that he's been called on here, without realising it only undermines his opinion presented as fact.

Does he even know what an ASIC is I wonder ?  Does he know that not all cameras use ASICs ?  Does he think that using an ASIC is the only way to make a camera, as Sony and RED apparently do, which of course means that Arriflex have no idea how to make a camera or design a their own sensor ?  Or Panasonic or Canon for that matter.

So which is it ?  Which are saying is proof of credibility ?  Are you saying that Arri, Canon, Panasonic and Blackmagic aren't ?

Do you have to use ASICs to design your own camera sensor or do you not ?

Does Kino know if designing a sensor and designing ASICS are mutually exclusive ? or not ?

Let's wait and see what he says, because one way he shows he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about and the other means he has to accept that he was wrong about Blackmagic not designing their own circuits (boards) and sensors

He has zero understanding of how a sensor is designed.  He still uses phrases like "off the shelf" without really understanding what that means.  Challenging him only leads to sideways arguments.

He'll come back now after a period of time while he furiously searches for the answers I challenge him on and he'll regurgitate some more half relevant information.

This topic is really just a place for people to vent their disappointments with Blackmagic products, which, they've probably earned their fair share of.  My personal experience isn't what many others claim, and I see a company that may not communicate what they do very well, yet addresses these issues when they come up.  I've seen them deal with many of their issues in manufacture, like the orbs that came up through the pockets, the rolling noise in some of the early BMCCs.

I probably have cameras that some here would define as magenta issues, but I never seem to shoot in circumstances that ever seem to reveal them to the QC processes I go through, namely a tech check for each days rushes, an assistant editor assembling the shots, another editor then cutting the shots (and intercutting with other cameras mind) then going to online, then grade, then through the QC process for delivery, which is very stringent. 

I've seen some cameras that absolutely have a problem and as far as I know anyone that can demonstrate that kind of severe problem has been able to RMA their camera

JB

[Jonesy Jones]

18 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

The problem with Kino is that he posts after trying to reverse engineer his knowledge with a google search. 

Look at his claim about Sony and RED being the only company that make their own sensors and ASICs. He is of course just parroting some marketing speak to support another of HIS claims that he's been called on here, without realising it only undermines his opinion presented as fact.

Does he even know what an ASIC is I wonder ?  Does he know that not all cameras use ASICs ?  Does he think that using an ASIC is the only way to make a camera, as Sony and RED apparently do, which of course means that Arriflex have no idea how to make a camera or design a their own sensor ?  Or Panasonic or Canon for that matter.

So which is it ?  Which are saying is proof of credibility ?  Are you saying that Arri, Canon, Panasonic and Blackmagic aren't ?

Do you have to use ASICs to design your own camera sensor or do you not ?

Does Kino know if designing a sensor and designing ASICS are mutually exclusive ? or not ?

Let's wait and see what he says, because one way he shows he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about and the other means he has to accept that he was wrong about Blackmagic not designing their own circuits (boards) and sensors

He has zero understanding of how a sensor is designed.  He still uses phrases like "off the shelf" without really understanding what that means.  Challenging him only leads to sideways arguments.

He'll come back now after a period of time while he furiously searches for the answers I challenge him on and he'll regurgitate some more half relevant information.

This topic is really just a place for people to vent their disappointments with Blackmagic products, which, they've probably earned their fair share of.  My personal experience isn't what many others claim, and I see a company that may not communicate what they do very well, yet addresses these issues when they come up.  I've seen them deal with many of their issues in manufacture, like the orbs that came up through the pockets, the rolling noise in some of the early BMCCs.

I probably have cameras that some here would define as magenta issues, but I never seem to shoot in circumstances that ever seem to reveal them to the QC processes I go through, namely a tech check for each days rushes, an assistant editor assembling the shots, another editor then cutting the shots (and intercutting with other cameras mind) then going to online, then grade, then through the QC process for delivery, which is very stringent. 

I've seen some cameras that absolutely have a problem and as far as I know anyone that can demonstrate that kind of severe problem has been able to RMA their camera

JB

Are the cameras that you have that exhibit magenta corners BM UM46 cameras? 

[John Brawley]

26 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Are the cameras that you have that exhibit magenta corners BM UM46 cameras? 

I haven't seen it in my cameras nor has it been a problem in any of the many QC processes my work goes though.

I haven't gone looking for it either.

jb  

 

 

[dhessel]

 

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

I'm not talking about technical issues with the cameras, I'm talking about accusing BMD of knowingly releasing faulty products.

\00a0

 

Seriously how could they not have known? It was present in beta footage from the beginning and after all that is what the beta testers are for, reporting these kind of issues to BM right? Even if the beta testers didn't forum members did and BM does monitor the forums. So they knew or they are incompetent, take your pick. I personal don't think they are incompetent.

[enny]

And those arri cameras are shit they only shoot 2.8k or something and dont get me started on panavision cameras

[Ed_David]

1 hour ago, John Brawley said:

The problem with Kino is that he posts after trying to reverse engineer his knowledge with a google search. 

Look at his claim about Sony and RED being the only company that make their own sensors and ASICs. He is of course just parroting some marketing speak to support another of HIS claims that he's been called on here, without realising it only undermines his opinion presented as fact.

Does he even know what an ASIC is I wonder ?  Does he know that not all cameras use ASICs ?  Does he think that using an ASIC is the only way to make a camera, as Sony and RED apparently do, which of course means that Arriflex have no idea how to make a camera or design a their own sensor ?  Or Panasonic or Canon for that matter.

So which is it ?  Which are saying is proof of credibility ?  Are you saying that Arri, Canon, Panasonic and Blackmagic aren't ?

Do you have to use ASICs to design your own camera sensor or do you not ?

Does Kino know if designing a sensor and designing ASICS are mutually exclusive ? or not ?

Let's wait and see what he says, because one way he shows he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about and the other means he has to accept that he was wrong about Blackmagic not designing their own circuits (boards) and sensors

He has zero understanding of how a sensor is designed.  He still uses phrases like "off the shelf" without really understanding what that means.  Challenging him only leads to sideways arguments.

He'll come back now after a period of time while he furiously searches for the answers I challenge him on and he'll regurgitate some more half relevant information.

This topic is really just a place for people to vent their disappointments with Blackmagic products, which, they've probably earned their fair share of.  My personal experience isn't what many others claim, and I see a company that may not communicate what they do very well, yet addresses these issues when they come up.  I've seen them deal with many of their issues in manufacture, like the orbs that came up through the pockets, the rolling noise in some of the early BMCCs.

I probably have cameras that some here would define as magenta issues, but I never seem to shoot in circumstances that ever seem to reveal them to the QC processes I go through, namely a tech check for each days rushes, an assistant editor assembling the shots, another editor then cutting the shots (and intercutting with other cameras mind) then going to online, then grade, then through the QC process for delivery, which is very stringent. 

I've seen some cameras that absolutely have a problem and as far as I know anyone that can demonstrate that kind of severe problem has been able to RMA their camera

JB

With all due respect, John, and I really appreciate all the work you have done for the online community and your championing of the BMCC, but you are a brand ambassador at this point for Blackmagic.

Whether or not Kino is just regurgitating things he learned on google, you can't call him an "idiot."  And you shouldn't really swear.

It looks bad not just on you, but on blackmagic.

I remember being on reduser and Jarred Land starting swearing at people and so did Chris something, a DP, who uses red a lot on music videos with Taylor Swift. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure other people who want to learn more about blackmagic.

I apologize if I have dug too hard into blackmagic.

I love Resolve - I use it constantly.  And I have used a pocket camera on some commercials and even the 4k camera on an Infinity car commercial.

Their cameras are amazing.

Right now, it seems that they are having an issue with their flagship camera.  And more than I knew.  I was only commenting on the build of the ursa mini 4.6k.

Anyway I understand why you are upset - you probably know the team behind the camera personally.  So it's like someone throwing shade at you personally.

Anyway I apologize.

1 minute ago, enny said:

And those arri cameras are shit they only shoot 2.8k or something and dont get me started on panavision cameras

This isn't about Arri and their inability to move to 4k to compromise dynamic range on their cameras - this is about an image issue with BM and for me, their camera's ergonomics which now I think is probably okay.  

[Kino]

5 hours ago, John Brawley said:

The problem with Kino is that he posts after trying to reverse engineer his knowledge with a google search. 

Look at his claim about Sony and RED being the only company that make their own sensors and ASICs. He is of course just parroting some marketing speak to support another of HIS claims that he's been called on here, without realising it only undermines his opinion presented as fact.

Does he even know what an ASIC is I wonder ?  Does he know that not all cameras use ASICs ?  Does he think that using an ASIC is the only way to make a camera, as Sony and RED apparently do, which of course means that Arriflex have no idea how to make a camera or design a their own sensor ?  Or Panasonic or Canon for that matter.

So which is it ?  Which are saying is proof of credibility ?  Are you saying that Arri, Canon, Panasonic and Blackmagic aren't ?

Do you have to use ASICs to design your own camera sensor or do you not ?

Does Kino know if designing a sensor and designing ASICS are mutually exclusive ? or not ?

Let's wait and see what he says, because one way he shows he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about and the other means he has to accept that he was wrong about Blackmagic not designing their own circuits (boards) and sensors

He has zero understanding of how a sensor is designed.  He still uses phrases like "off the shelf" without really understanding what that means.  Challenging him only leads to sideways arguments.

He'll come back now after a period of time while he furiously searches for the answers I challenge him on and he'll regurgitate some more half relevant information.

Speaking of "sideways arguments," John, instead of addressing the issue of whether BMD contracted Fairchild to design the 4.6K sensor, you have resorted to another sideways debate on whether I know what ASICs are and how that relates to sensor and camera design. You then suggest that I consulted Google when forming my arguments and that I’m otherwise an “idiot” for accusing BMD for not designing their own sensor.

If BMD designed the sensor instead of hiring Fairchild, where are BMD’s patents and why does Fairchild hold the rights to a sensor with the exact same specs and release date? It is easy to disprove your claims by demanding the patent documents or looking at the facts. But you don’t like facts. You like to hurl insults and use distraction and straw man arguments (e.g., ASICs), which simply display a lack of reason, logic and tact. It is also too easy to question your neutrality and credibility on the issue when you are so closely associated with BMD.

But let me also give you some advice as you have no idea who you’re talking with here. You’re simply out of your depth on this one.

I choose to remain anonymous here because people in my line of work don’t generally come on camera forums. In fact, they almost never do. That’s not because we have no expertise on film technology, cameras, film history, or the film industry. Rather, the opposite extreme is true. You might say that I’m a little bit of a “Professor” or “Dr.” on these things.

Do you know what happens when you put my real name (hint: it's not "Kino”) into a Google search? As a matter of fact, aside from my industry credits from the 1990s and 2000s, you get a list of peer-reviewed academic publications on the film industry and the history of film technology and cinematography. Even your local university library contains academic journals with articles I've written on several of these topics. You might want to read some of those academic film journals before throwing the material back into my face on film cameras or technology.

In short, I don't cite Google, but Google cites me and sells my book on the Hollywood studio system on Google Play. It's also available on Amazon.com and Amazon.com.au for your convenience as well as on iTunes, Barnes and Noble and the rest, not to mention from numerous university libraries and hardcover distributors around the world.

Now I suggest to you that you conduct yourself with respect towards others online, no matter who they are or how you may agree or disagree with them. And this is not about insulting people you don’t know or who unbeknownst to you may have doctorates in film or media or years of experience and accumulated knowledge, but simply a matter of decency towards all the forum participants.

And, please, cut out the snake oil merchant show. If you want to reduce yourself to peddling camera products on these forums, at least provide an ethics statement so people know what your exact relationship is to BMD. It's just a sad spectacle, in any case.

[Jonesy Jones]

Kino, you can't have expertise and anonymity at the same time. 

[enny]

5 hours ago, Ed_David said:

With all due respect, John, and I really appreciate all the work you have done for the online community and your championing of the BMCC, but you are a brand ambassador at this point for Blackmagic.

Whether or not Kino is just regurgitating things he learned on google, you can't call him an "idiot."  And you shouldn't really swear.

It looks bad not just on you, but on blackmagic.

I remember being on reduser and Jarred Land starting swearing at people and so did Chris something, a DP, who uses red a lot on music videos with Taylor Swift. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm sure other people who want to learn more about blackmagic.

I apologize if I have dug too hard into blackmagic.

I love Resolve - I use it constantly.  And I have used a pocket camera on some commercials and even the 4k camera on an Infinity car commercial.

Their cameras are amazing.

Right now, it seems that they are having an issue with their flagship camera.  And more than I knew.  I was only commenting on the build of the ursa mini 4.6k.

Anyway I understand why you are upset - you probably know the team behind the camera personally.  So it's like someone throwing shade at you personally.

Anyway I apologize.

This isn't about Arri and their inability to move to 4k to compromise dynamic range on their cameras - this is about an image issue with BM and for me, their camera's ergonomics which now I think is probably okay.  

What image issues?

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, enny said:

And those arri cameras are shit they only shoot 2.8k or something and dont get me started on panavision cameras

Seriously enny?? That is an incredibly clueless statement to shit on Arri cameras because of their resolution. 

2 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Kino, you can't have expertise and anonymity at the same time. 

Maybe Kino is from Egypt?

[enny]

24 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Seriously enny?? That is an incredibly clueless statement to shit on Arri cameras because of their resolution. 

Maybe Kino is from Egypt?

dude sarcasm

[Mattias Burling]

5 hours ago, Kino said:

And, please, cut out the snake oil merchant show. If you want to reduce yourself to peddling camera products on these forums, at least provide an ethics statement so people know what your exact relationship is to BMD. It's just a sad spectacle, in any case.

Ethnics statement... How about you telling us your name. Everyone knows Johns relationship to BMD. You could be the president of Red for all I know.

Also I've never seen an authors before that didn't want to say their name. You know, to sell books. 

Honestly, at this point it seems you are just trying to dodge his questions to save face.

Prove us wrong.

[squig]

12 hours ago, John Brawley said:

I probably have cameras that some here would define as magenta issues, but I never seem to shoot in circumstances that ever seem to reveal them to the QC processes I go through, namely a tech check for each days rushes, an assistant editor assembling the shots, another editor then cutting the shots (and intercutting with other cameras mind) then going to online, then grade, then through the QC process for delivery, which is very stringent. 

I've seen some cameras that absolutely have a problem and as far as I know anyone that can demonstrate that kind of severe problem has been able to RMA their camera

JB

Not oversaturating like a muppet helps too.

[enny]

How abut we stop arguing over what camera and do some work

[John Brawley]

So Kino once again dodges his assertions with claims about his academic prowess.

Notice readers, once again, Kino avoids rebuttals on his claims and moves to...ahhh..defense of his academic prowess.

Anyway, last I heard patents weren't the only way to protect IP.  In fact, the most enduring way is to keep it secret...like Coke and Colonel Sanders do. Having or not having a patent is indicative of nothing at all. 

Once again, a very old fashioned out of date view about how IP is protected.

But again we're just diverting the conversation again aren't we. Something Kino always does.

How about this.  Do you think RED don't work with their sensor fab partner in EXACTLY the same way Blackmagic or ARRI or Digital Bolex do ? You don't cause that's what you're saying, but you actually don't really know do you because all you can do is dig up a quote about ASICs and Sensors, without knowing what you post about.

Of course you are trying to perhaps have me confirm a technology partner of BM, when you know full well I'd never be able to disclose that without breaking an NDA, but I can assure you, the sensor used in the UM4.6K is not an "off the shelf sensor", nor is it one that you can just go order from whomever you think the vendor is. I know this because of actual personal involvement with its development.  Please explain how I can have that so wrong and your version be more correct ?

It's very usual for camera manufacturers to partner with companies making sensors to also spin off the development costs to amortise them for other uses. I bet you can't name me another sensor company that has done this after developing a sensor that never came to market....cmon now, you failed on the ASIC questions...You should be able to get this one...

The fact is you're wrong.  You make wrong claims, and for an academic, you fail to make bullet proof arguments about your claims, backed up by anything other than second hand information.

I also don't believe you own any of the cameras being discussed, nor do I believe you've used them.

Here are some of my favorite collected Kino quotes and please tell me this isn't the same Kino from another forum.....Please note the regular contradictions and backflippery.

"With every 4.6k video that is posted, the lack of a pleasing highlight roll-off is more and more apparent. It could possibly be a highlight recovery issue in post, but it is a characteristic of this camera in several videos that we have seen. It's like the sensor hits a wall and cannot reproduce the gradations of luminance one would expect from the shot."

"4 stops over-and-under is a very respectable performance. It's not going to equal an Alexa or Weapon, especially in the highlights, but the 4.6k's blacks are very clean. Its noise performance is pretty impressive and, while it is losing saturation in underexposure, the footage is still usable. "

"This is exactly why I said 10-12 stops for the 4.6k,"

"I cannot imagine at this stage that BMD is having quality control issues."

"Obviously, that is a serious problem. That purple/blue clipping is from the camera, not any lens."  - Which was said in relation to an obviously mis-graded clip that had the "old" Resolve BM 709 LUT applied.

Some of my favourite Kino posts relate to a conspiracy theory he ran for several pages about the 4.6K not having the DR everyone now accepts it has because some early clips that were released didn't to HIS EYE appear to have any DR and then he really got excited because a post of a photo of a XYLA chart on facebook by a senior ASC technical committee DP shot on a computer screen in shot while a 4.6K appeared to be tested didn't appear to show the correct DR and yet didn't seem to want to accept it could never be an accurate image because the lights were on in the test environment for the purposes of taking...the photo...

He doesn't even understand how the test conditions would change that result, even when told, he still posted this kind of garbage...

"Yes, final results are necessary from an independent source (Cinema5D, for example), but that image was pulled because it was revealing, not because it was misleading." He didn't know the image WAS an independent source, namely the individual ASC technical committee members facebook page, but whatever...

"So even when there is evidence there is no evidence. Of course, I anticipated this day. Put a Xyla chart or waveform in front of them and they still cannot acknowledge that the camera's performance does not meet its advertised specs."

"The spikes I'm referring to are clearly visible in the waveform monitors sitting on the table in the released image of the 4.6k test. The "waveforms" you have posted are of your own fabrication and not from any test of a RED camera. There is a fundamental difference. Besides, the question remains: why was the entire post, its conclusions, and its uncontaminated Xyla (if any) taken down?"

He also continues to ridicule and attack individuals that have no ability to answer because of the very fact that they ARE under NDA.  This is also why i like to hold him to account for his reckless and misinformed claims.

"Now, of course, I understand you are under NDAs and your responsibility is to report such problems back to BMD and not this forum, but you can't turn around and argue that you were the ones who brought the magenta issue to our attention. That's a joke, right?"

But my favourite of course also in the same thread many of the above posts were in was..

"This camera is finally ready for prime time and for my wallet."

Sorry if this seems harsh.  I just don't like debating what I know to be factually untrue with an anonymous grandstander.   I prefer to hold someone that posts that kind of ill informed guesswork to account.  All I ever used to do was challenge Kino's claims.  He just ignores that and never retracts or admits getting it wrong.

I'm happy to be proven wrong if all this is untrue.

 

1 hour ago, squig said:

Not oversaturating like a muppet helps too.

Well, I have major issues with the testing methodologies espoused by many that produce the magenta corner result.  I was sent an image from a RED DRAGON that had the same test results applied according to the author, a 400% boost in saturation to bring out the result, and it looked worse than what's usually cited on the UM4.6K.

JB

[John Brawley]

12 hours ago, Ed_David said:

With all due respect, John, and I really appreciate all the work you have done for the online community and your championing of the BMCC, but you are a brand ambassador at this point for Blackmagic.

 

Hi.

You may think I'm a brand ambassador, but lets examine what that would actually mean. It would mean that I get paid to promote and generally aid the cause of Blackmagic and their brand awareness and experience with their users, is that right ?

I am not a Brand ambassador for Blackmagic, mostly because I don't get paid to be one, and I'd rather speak my mind openly in public forums like this.  I've believe I've been honest in my views of the pros and cons of their products.  I have a personal relationship with many of the people that work there and I've had a lot to do casually with helping with test shoots, iterations of changes to fundamentals,  which again, I'm not paid for.  In return I get to be involved with the development of cameras, furthering my own understanding of how a camera is built from the ground up, I get to see some of my input make it into the development cycle and I get some cameras.  Blackmagic once flew me to IBC to help with the launch of the MFT version of the 2.5K, a version I strongly lobbied for internally with BM.

None of my involvement with Blackmagic has EVER lead to me getting work as a DP, or increasing my profile.  If you think that's what producers go for then you'd be wrong.

If you don't think I'm polite enough then it's really your problem.  I would much rather remain independent and be able to speak my mind frankly.  It's exactly because I'm not a Blackmagic Brand ambassador that I can do this and the more I do this job, the less patient I get with armchair experts like Kino.

I feel like I've earned the right to be able to speak on that which I know something about and I don't really have the patience to argue points of fact with someone anonymous like Kino who has no ability to back up his claims nor legitimacy in his identity.  Anyone who's been on camera forums knows me and my history and has that posting history to inform them.  I have been on CML since nearly the begining, on C.com for many years and DP review, REDUSER, DVXUSER  all long before Blackmagic came along.  I have a blog where I try to write meaningful and helpful work and share my very own camera tests from actual shows with anyone who wants to see them without monetising it or having any kinds of adverts or kickbacks.

Because I like to be able to speak my mind when I wish to. I'm not building a profile with this audience because I am not tied to you guys for money.

JB

 

 

[squig]

16 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

Well, I have major issues with the testing methodologies espoused by many that produce the magenta corner result.  I was sent an image from a RED DRAGON that had the same test results applied according to the author, a 400% boost in saturation to bring out the result, and it looked worse than what's usually cited on the UM4.6K.

JB

400%!

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Blackmagic once flew me to IBC to help with the launch of the MFT version of the 2.5K, a version I strongly lobbied for internally with BM.

Thank you!! Hope you're also lobbying them for an URSA Mini 4K MFT?? :-D :-D