5D Mark IV angst, pixturbation, and how I learned to love the bomb.

[squig]

I know what it's like to get all emotional about a new camera release; in my case it's expensive. I don't know if it's the encroaching grey hair, I got a life, I learned to love the bomb, or I just don't give a fuck anymore, but nowadays I'm a lot more focused on creativity than pixels. Pixel peeping is still a very important activity, especially for a freak like me with the audacity to shoot Hollywood money shots with no budget. 

So as you may have heard Canon have ramped up the sausage.. erm marketing machine and spat out another 5D. What Canon has delivered is pretty much what was to be expected: another incremental upgrade, nothing pixelorgasmicly™ groundbreaking, but there's a few things to consider before totally writing the 5D Mark IV off:

1) It's better in low light than the Mk3

2) There's more resolution in the DP review tests than the Mk3 which MAY produce a 1080 image something akin to the A7s, not quite ML raw resolution, but on par with the BMMCC. (not sure if it has an OLPF? Aliasing?)

3) the Mark IV looks to have a 1-1.5 stop dynamic range boost (waiting to see a trusted test like DXOmark)

4) 1080p h.264 HDR mode produces a nice dynamic range boost and could help a lot to produce a decent 8bit H.264 image (as far as 8bit H.264 can be considered decent).

5) Has anybody crying over the 4k crop ever heard of the Tokina 11-16mm? or the Sigma 18-35mm?

Would any of that make it worth $5000 (AUD) strictly for filmmaking? No fucking way; I can get a C100 MKII here for that money, but moving along....

6) Magic Lantern 1080p raw is a possibility (albeit not a probability).

If Magic Lantern eventuates, with the aforementioned improvements it would definitely be worth the $5000 to me. The two main issues I have with the 5D Mark 3 raw are the 11.7 stops of dynamic range, and noisy digital gain over 1600 ISO. Despite those issues there is no raw camera on the market that can match it in that price range.

So I'm going to wait and see if the Magic Lantern developers can do their magic; if not: too bad so sad.

[Hene1]

2 minutes ago, squig said:

4) 1080p h.264 HDR mode produces a nice dynamic range boost and could help a lot to produce a decent 8bit H.264 image (as far as 8bit H.264 can be considered decent).

Some say this is only available in auto mode.

[Jimmy]

If ML crack this baby, i'll be all over it.

1080/60p raw and 13.5 stops would be fine by me.

[Taranis]

5 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

If ML crack this baby, i'll be all over it.

1080/60p raw and 13.5 stops would be fine by me.

Yeah but how do you write ~200MB/s to a CompactFlash card?

[Andrew Reid]

10 minutes ago, squig said:

I know what it's like to get all emotional about a new camera release; in my case it's expensive. I don't know if it's the encroaching grey hair, I got a life, I learned to love the bomb, or I just don't give a fuck anymore, but nowadays I'm a lot more focused on creativity than pixels. Pixel peeping is still a very important activity, especially for a freak like me with the audacity to shoot Hollywood money shots with no budget.

Pixel peeping is sometimes relevant, sometimes not.

But important creative differences can be very subtle, look at Shane Hurlbut's comparison of the Leica Summilux vs Cooke cinema lenses.

They do add up to a big difference creatively.

10 minutes ago, squig said:

So as you may have heard Canon have ramped up the sausage.. erm marketing machine and spat out another 5D. What Canon has delivered is pretty much what was to be expected: another incremental upgrade, nothing pixelorgasmicly™ groundbreaking, but there's a few things to consider before totally writing the 5D Mark IV off:

1) It's better in low light than the Mk3

How dramatically the low light advantage over the 5D Mark III translates into video mode remains to be seen.

A 1:1 pixel crop in 4K does not leave any room for the clever noise reduction or oversampling that the A7R II Super 35mm benefits from.

10 minutes ago, squig said:

2) There's more resolution in the DP review tests than the Mk3 which MAY produce a 1080 image something akin to the A7s, not quite ML raw resolution, but on par with the BMMCC. (not sure if it has an OLPF? Aliasing?)

I do hope for a nice 2K image out of the 5D MK IV but only if Magic Lantern can give us raw, otherwise I'd rather stick to the Mk III even if it is a tiny bit softer.

10 minutes ago, squig said:

3) the Mark IV looks to have a 1-1.5 stop dynamic range boost (waiting to see a trusted test like DXOmark)

Again this applies to stills.

No Canon LOG or RAW on the 5D MK IV as it stands so don't expect much improvement to video DR.

10 minutes ago, squig said:

4) 1080p h.264 HDR mode produces a nice dynamic range boost and could help a lot to produce a decent 8bit H.264 image (as far as 8bit H.264 can be considered decent).

5) Has anybody crying over the 4k crop ever heard of the Tokina 11-16mm? or the Sigma 18-35mm?

Sigma 18-35mm is a beautiful lens, the crop is still a huge shame though as I love full frame and am heavily invested in FF lenses.

Sigma 50-100mm F1.8 would be great on the 5D Mk IV for punched in shots - the crop won't matter then, it would even be an advantage for telephoto shots.

10 minutes ago, squig said:

Would any of that make it worth $5000 (AUD) strictly for filmmaking? No fucking way; I can get a C100 MKII here for that money, but moving along....

The UK price is even worse - £3600? May as well get a 1D X Mark II!

10 minutes ago, squig said:

6) Magic Lantern 1080p raw is a possibility (albeit not a probability).

If Magic Lantern eventuates, with the aforementioned improvements it would definitely be worth the $5000 to me. The two main issues I have with the 5D Mark 3 raw are the 11.7 stops of dynamic range, and noisy digital gain over 1600 ISO. Despite those issues there is no raw camera on the market that can match it in that price range.

So I'm going to wait and see if the Magic Lantern developers can do their magic; if not: too bad so sad.

Only if Magic Lantern bring raw to the 5D Mk IV will I consider it, and even then it is highly unlikely to be 4K raw with the lack of CFast 2.0 slots.

But I agree with you overall...

Magic Lantern 14bit full frame raw in 1080p with dual pixel AF? I'll take 10!

[squig]

21 minutes ago, Hene1 said:

Some say this is only available in auto mode.

Ewwww.

13 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

If ML crack this baby, i'll be all over it.

1080/60p raw and 13.5 stops would be fine by me.

Hell yeah.

8 minutes ago, Taranis said:

Yeah but how do you write ~200MB/s to a CompactFlash card?

You 3:1 compress it.

[gt3rs]

5 minutes ago, squig said:

Ewwww.

Hell yeah.

You 3:1 compress it.

BMC 4k RAW 3:1 is 200 MB/s ca. 1.6 Gbits.... 2x the 1Dx II 4k60p data rate.... no way on a CF card, on CFast is doable like BM does.

[squig]

26 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

How dramatically the low light advantage over the 5D Mark III translates into video mode remains to be seen.

Only if Magic Lantern bring raw to the 5D Mk IV will I consider it, and even then it is highly unlikely to be 4K raw with the lack of CFast 2.0 slots.

But I agree with you overall...

Magic Lantern 14bit full frame raw in 1080p with dual pixel AF? I'll take 10!

Having slept with a Mk3 for 5 years I can already see from the DP Review test the potential of the Mk IV with ML raw, it's not a "game changer" but I'm pushing the Mk3 to its absolute limit all the time, so an incremental improvement: take my money. 4K raw doubtful, but compressed 60p 1080 is a maybe. I shoot everything with a 2.39:1 frame which is just over 60MB/s.

10 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

BMC 4k RAW 3:1 is 200 MB/s ca. 1.6 Gbits.... 2x the 1Dx II 4k60p data rate.... no way on a CF card, on CFast is doable like BM does.

5D Mk3 2.39:1 1080p raw is about 62MB/s. At that aspect ratio 4k 3:1 compressed raw is doable on a CF card, but I'd still shoot 1080p raw because it has enough resolution for broadcast/theatrical and there's no crop.

[Taranis]

20 minutes ago, squig said:

You 3:1 compress it.

Is RAW compression even possible with current builds of ML?

[squig]

10 minutes ago, Taranis said:

Is RAW compression even possible with current builds of ML?

No, but it's 1s and 0s; anything is possible, somebody just has to figure it out.

[Taranis]

Just now, squig said:

No, but it's 1s and 0s; anything is possible, somebody just has to figure it out.

Yeah that would make life so much easier, that's why it's interesting that we still don't have that after 7 years of ML developement. There must be a good reason for that.

[mercer]

I just bought a 50D and I can tell after using it for 2 hours that I love ML Raw. I sincerely hope that the ML team continues with 5D Mkiv, because I would love another reason for the mkiii to drop in price on the used market in 6 months to a year. 

@squig do you shoot with a specific picture profile with ML raw or do you just let raw ride and create your look entirely in post?

[squig]

51 minutes ago, mercer said:

@squig do you shoot with a specific picture profile with ML raw or do you just let raw ride and create your look entirely in post?

I'm messing around with different film stock LUTs (I've got a smallHD 501) and custom camera profiles, but the Canon standard profile works well enough for monitoring. I create whatever look I want in post, but I've been thinking about making custom LUTs from graded camera tests.

[IronFilm]

I don't understand the talk about 5Dmk4 and ML raw because:

 

A) it won't happen any time soon. Expect 2017 minimum before it is out and solidly working great. 

B) the price is insane if you're getting it just for raw, you're creeping up close to KineFinity Terra 5K or URSA Mini 4.6K pricing! 

[kaylee]

30 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

A) it won't happen any time soon. Expect 2017 minimum before it is out and solidly working great. 

agree. or longer. or never

30 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

B) the price is insane if you're getting it just for raw, you're creeping up close to KineFinity Terra 5K or URSA Mini 4.6K pricing! 

fair enough, but to me the ml 5d3 raw is a ~unique~ video image. one of a kind. its not those other cameras, great as they may be. those who dont feel that way – of whom there are many – are obviously not interested in hacking an existing canon slr, let alone a brand new one

for me a 5d4 is extremely attractive with a raw video hack, even at an improved 1080p, but thats in addition to its features as a stills camera. i want a camera that does both, one thats stealthy enough to not attract attention

im sure there are others on this board who always post about video and never about stills, like me, who have just as much interest in a "hybrid" camera

sorry i dont mean to come off as didactic, its just that i forget that myself sometimes lol. cuz if i didnt give an f about video and i just shot stills with a 5d3 id prolly look at a 5d4 as a great upgrade

[squig]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I don't understand the talk about 5Dmk4 and ML raw because:

 

A) it won't happen any time soon. Expect 2017 minimum before it is out and solidly working great. 

B) the price is insane if you're getting it just for raw, you're creeping up close to KineFinity Terra 5K or URSA Mini 4.6K pricing! 

ML have been doing Digic6 development for a while, it may happen sooner than you think. When I was recording 2 seconds of raw video people said continuous raw would never happen. A week or so later I was recording continuous raw.

It isn't cheap, but there's not a lot of 1080p full frame raw options.  The street price should be around $4500; the Terra and the Ursa mini 4.6k are $7000 AUD and they don't do 2k full sensor raw. I'd have to invest another 6 grand in hard drives and tapes to shoot my film in 4k.

16 minutes ago, kaylee said:

agree. or longer. or never

I'm praying to Kubrick, God of DSLRs and debauchery.

Right now there's only 2 cameras I really want to shoot with (besides my MK3): a 5D Mark IV with 1080p raw, and an Alexa Mini. Screw 4k. A D750 with raw would be even better than the 5D, but the guy who was trying to hack it hit a wall.

I prefer mirrorless for stills, why I still have the A7s, possibly soon to be replaced with the new Fujifilm.

[dhessel]

13 hours ago, squig said:

No, but it's 1s and 0s; anything is possible, somebody just has to figure it out.

It is not just 1's and 0's it is also hardware. ML runs on the cameras CPU and the CPU simply is not powerful enough to compress the data fast enough. They already know how to do it and have already tried, the camera cannot handle it. It cannot even handle reducing the bit depth down to 10bit which is even less demanding. Compressed raw on the current cameras that can run ML is not going to happen. Chances are it won't be happening on the Mark IV either.

[squig]

7 minutes ago, dhessel said:

Compressed raw on the current cameras that can run ML is not going to happen. Chances are it won't be happening on the Mark IV either.

I don't care.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, kaylee said:

for me a 5d4 is extremely attractive with a raw video hack, even at an improved 1080p, but thats in addition to its features as a stills camera. i want a camera that does both, one thats stealthy enough to not attract attention

 

If you want smaller then the Terra 5K/6K is only about 5D size! :-o 

And if you want a great stills camera the D750 will be available for a dirt dirt cheap price by the time a ML raw hack for 5Dmk4 arrives.

[squig]

30 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

If you want smaller then the Terra 5K/6K is only about 5D size! :-o 

And if you want a great stills camera the D750 will be available for a dirt dirt cheap price by the time a ML raw hack for 5Dmk4 arrives.

Size matters but it's more about not needing 4k for narrative work, and the extra post expense that incurs. Both the MkIV and MkIII with ML would make a great 2 camera narrative film set up. Now I'm running with the MkIII and BMMCC as a b-cam.

The D750 is great, but something smaller with an EVF suits my needs better, something I can pocket and have on hand for production stills and BTS video. I've got my eye on an X-T2 23mm f/2 combo.